New Power: Damage Shield Construction

[schir1964]

Another thread inspired me to take another stab at not only fixing the cost of Damage Shield, but make it a more consistent flexible construct to work with.

 

Feel free to contribute and give opinions on what you like and dislike.

 

I don't want sidethreads on why my construct isn't needed or why it will never be used. I'm asking for help to create something that I will use and if others like it, then they can use also.

 

Damage Shield: A character with this power will deliver damage to an opponent who attacks and successfully hits the character (HTH). Furthermore, this damage is also delivered when the character attacks and successfully hits an opponent (HTH). A character can only have one Damage Shield (GM permission required for more).

 

Standard Power/Attack Power

Constant

No Range

Costs Endurance

 

Damage Types

20 Pts/1d6 Adjustment Damage

10 Pts/1d6 Normal Damage

20 Pts/1d6 Killing Damage

15 Pts/1d6 Mental Damage

10 Pts/1d6 Cosmetic Transform

15 Pts/1d6 Minor Transform

20 Pts/1d6 Major Transform

 

For a more detailed and accurate costing of attack powers, consult the following list:

 

Adjustment

Drain (25 Pts/1d6): Additional Drain per phase of constant contact. [No Cap]

Suppress (25 Pts/1d6): Additional Suppress per phase of constant contact. [Cumulative]

Transfer (25 Pts/1d6)

 

Standard

Dispel (5 Pts/1d6): All Or Nothing

Energy Blast (10 Pts/1d6)

Entangle (15 Pts/1d6)

Flash (10 Pts/1d6)

Killing Attack (25 Pts/1d6)

Telekinesis aka STR (5 Pts/1d6): Must have set effect (Grab and Throw, etc)

Transform - Cosmetic (10 Pts/1d6)

Transform - Minor (15 Pts/1d6)

Transform - Major (25 Pts/1d6)

 

Mental

Ego Attack (15 Pts/1d6):

 

Adders

Touch (+5 Points): Damage is delivered when anyone/anything touches the character. (The GM may require the player to take the Side Effect Limitation with this adder)

Add STR To Killing (+5 Points): This changes the Killing Attack into a HKA type of attack.

 

Advantages

Reduced Endurance (+1/4, +1/2)

Persistent (+1/2)

 

Limitations

Normal Damage Does Stun Only (-0)

Defensive Only (-1/4): This power only damages an attacker and does no damage when the character attacks others.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: New Power: Damage Shield Construction

 

So, Damage Shield as a Power instead of a Power Modifier.

 

Interesting....

[Ndreare]

Re: New Power: Damage Shield Construction

 

I assume this is a cost per DC not per die. As a transform Damage Shield for only 10 points per die could get funny.

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Damage Shield Construction

 

I assume this is a cost per DC not per die. As a transform Damage Shield for only 10 points per die could get funny.

Actually, I've updated it more clearly reflect the idea. I was thinking of 'per die' instead of Damage Class. Not sure how much difference it makes one way or another.

 

Is Transform an Adjustment Attack or something else altogether?

 

I ask because I wasn't thinking of Transform as applying to this, but now I'll have to check.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Ndreare]

Re: New Power: Damage Shield Construction

 

I believe that 15 per 1D6 would be better for Adjustment powers. Look at the cost of drain [10], then compare this to the cost of your Mental [15], This is just my opinion however I think I as a GM would be concerned about balance.

 

A 6D6 Dain vs. END Damage Shield would only cost 60 BasePoints at [10]

However at [15] a 4D6 Dain vs. END Damage Shield would only cost 60 BasePoints

 

I believe that an auto hit attack that will be used buy the Player also while they are attacking should be priced compared to other powers. The primary power I would consider this close to is "Drain" at [10] per 1D6 now you have added the feature of "Damage Shield" with out removing the ability to use it as an attack so IMHO it should cost a little more.

 

I also would change the Stun only to [10] per die for the same reasons as above.

 

Under this construct my I add advantages like NND and AVLD?

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Damage Shield Construction

 

I believe that 15 per 1D6 would be better for Adjustment powers. Look at the cost of drain [10]' date=' then compare this to the cost of your Mental [15'], This is just my opinion however I think I as a GM would be concerned about balance.

 

A 6D6 Dain vs. END Damage Shield would only cost 60 BasePoints at [10]

However at [15] a 4D6 Dain vs. END Damage Shield would only cost 60 BasePoints

 

I believe that an auto hit attack that will be used buy the Player also while they are attacking should be priced compared to other powers. The primary power I would consider this close to is "Drain" at [10] per 1D6 now you have added the feature of "Damage Shield" with out removing the ability to use it as an attack so IMHO it should cost a little more.

 

I also would change the Stun only to [10] per die for the same reasons as above.

 

Under this construct my I add advantages like NND and AVLD?

All of your analysis makes sense and I've made the changes above to match.

 

Yes, you can add Advantages/Limitations as normal. I'm sure there might be a few that should be restricted like other powers have.

[Vondy]

Re: New Power: Damage Shield Construction

 

It looks like it would work and I don't think it would prove abusive. I'm cautious about adding powers to the system, but Damage Shield is a seriously broken construct as is. Before some people thought it was too cheap, not its prohibitively expensive. I'll leave the costing analysis to the more mathematically manic, but it seems like its costed about right. Its definately worth a playtest if you are so inclined. I've been toying with variations of trigger.

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Damage Shield Construction

 

I added Transform Damage as it's own special entry since it has a more complex mechanic built in.

 

And I reverted the Stun Only to a -0 Limitation for Normal Damage since they both have the same base cost now.

 

Any other thoughts recommendations? Any SFX this power might make easier to build?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Vondy]

Re: New Power: Damage Shield Construction

 

What is the endurance policy for this power? Is endurance paid unless they purchase the reduced endurance advantage, or is it assumed the power costs no enducence?

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: New Power: Damage Shield Construction

 

You may not want to hear this, but I'm gonna say it anyhow. What you're proposing here is severely unbalanced.

 

15 points for 1d6 Drain that automatically functions whenever a character hits someone in HTH (free Multiple Power Attack!!!) *and* whenever the character is hit in HTH Combat? And it costs 0 END unless you take the Costs END Limitation?

 

I'm sorry, but that's *severely* under-costed. For that matter, so are all the other permutations. Free damage at 0 END cost is right there just, plain broken and severely imbalanced.

 

Let's compare the constructs you have here with the standard powers they emulate. If you want to do just a 1d6 Drain that you have to make a normal hit with in HTH combat, that costs 10 pts. To make it 0 END costs 15 - and it still doesn't harm people when they hit you. Plus, normal Multiple Power Attacks don't benefit from skill levels that don't apply to both attacks, so if (for example) you have a Drain and want to use it simultaneously with Martial Punch, you can't use your 2-pt Martial Punch levels or your 3-pt Martial Maneuvers if you use both powers - the cheapest CSL which would apply would be a 5-point HTH. So, your construct as written also potentially tosses in several free variable CSLs. Note that the "no range" aspect of Damage Shield doesn't disadvantage Drain as it would EB, because Drain is No Range by default (you have to purchase the Ranged Advantage to do a Ranged Drain).

 

Now let's look at KA. To get a 0-END 1d6 KA costs a base of 22 points itself, and it doesn't hurt anyone who attacks you. That's a more powerful effect in and of itself than whatever you lose by not allowing one to pump the KA damage with STR like a normal HKA.

 

Mental Powers? 1d6 Ego Attack, 0 END is 15 pts right there. By book, you can't use it along with a HTH Multiple Power Attack unless you declare that it works vs. DCV rather than ECV.. and again, it doesn't harm people attacking you. In this case you aren't so severely under-costing as with the others above, though, as at least you lose the nice range normally inherent with Mental Powers.

 

What you've done here is create Powers that are cheaper than Standard Powers for the same effect - i.e., better than the standard Powers.

[Vondy]

Re: New Power: Damage Shield Construction

 

Two things:

 

1) he listed 0 END under potential advantages so the power, as written, costs endurance - so your primary criticism is false.

 

2) in his write up its explicitly stated standard attack powers were automatically no range.

 

I don't share your concern.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: New Power: Damage Shield Construction

 

Two things:

 

1) he listed 0 END under potential advantages so the power, as written, costs endurance - so your primary criticism is false.

 

No, he didn't. Read again. He lists "Costs END" as a Limitation.

 

2) in his write up its explicitly stated standard attack powers were automatically no range.

 

I don't share your concern.

 

That's apparently because you don't comprehend game balance, and you aren't reading his write-up correctly.

 

He is proposing this as a new Standard Power/Attack Power with No Range - not turning an existing Power "No Range". Since Drain (the archetype Adjustment Power) is already No Range, but doesn't damage people attacking you, his version version comes out as better than standard Drain, as it does more for the same point costs. His KA version is *cheaper* than the standard version, with the bonus of damaging attackers and no significant drawbacks.

[Vondy]

Re: New Power: Damage Shield Construction

 

 

That's apparently because you don't comprehend game balance

 

This is an unecessary personal attack and the end of our discussion.

[ghost-angel]

Re: New Power: Damage Shield Construction

 

I do share the inherent 0END on an offensive power concern.

 

But, I think there could be a fix to rebalance it.

 

Standard Damage Shield is defensive only: when the character is hit, performs a Grab Maneuver, etc..

 

Make a +1/4 Advantage for Damage Shield to turn it into an offensive power. So you can inflict the damage in HtH, still at 0END.

 

You'd have to be careful with this power though, even with a +1/4 Advantage you're getting "free" Multiple Power Attacks with every hit at no additional END costs and without needing to meet any other MPA rules (you can use Skill Levels that apply only to the main attack and the DS automatically gets them).

 

--

Though personally, to me, simply reversing the values of the DS Advantage in place rebalances it. +1/4 to make a power DS, +1/2 to make DS act offensively. But I digress.

--

 

The power, as it stands isn't too unbalanced, but the 0END for an offensive use power should be addressed in some manner.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: New Power: Damage Shield Construction

 

The power' date=' as it stands isn't too unbalanced, but the 0END for an offensive use power should be addressed in some manner.[/quote']

 

Personally, I think a Power that does damage to someone - whether defensively or not - should either Cost END or be bought at zero END. Damage is damage, and in a lot of settings/against a lot of opponents, Damage Shield equates to being able to attack opponents on their phases, as well as your own.

 

As written here, if one has the Power Cost END by default and requires a + 1/4 Advantage to stack damage in HTH maneuvers other than Grab, then it might be balanced... and still cheaper than Damage Shield as written in the books.

 

I personally still think the best fix would be to just have Damage Shield work as discussed in the 5E rules, but assign it a +1 Advantage and not require one to buy Continuous.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: New Power: Damage Shield Construction

 

This is an unecessary personal attack and the end of our discussion.

 

*shrug*

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Damage Shield Construction

 

You may not want to hear this' date=' but I'm gonna say it anyhow. What you're proposing here is severely unbalanced...[/quote']

I welcome your "constructive" criticism.

 

The points you brought up are a concern. I'm not the number cruncher like many that frequent these boards. That's what this thread is all about, getting help on make a consistent flexible contruct that is useable (that implies balance).

 

You seem to be one of the number crunchers. Why don't crunch the numbers for me and give me what you think the base costs should be for each Damage Type.

 

However, I would like to request that might want to try to be a little more polite to some of the other posters here, since they are here to help also. Thanks.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Damage Shield Construction

 

I do share the inherent 0 END on an offensive power concern.

 

But, I think there could be a fix to rebalance it.

 

Standard Damage Shield is defensive only: when the character is hit, performs a Grab Maneuver, etc..

 

Make a +1/4 Advantage for Damage Shield to turn it into an offensive power. So you can inflict the damage in HtH, still at 0 END.

 

You'd have to be careful with this power though, even with a +1/4 Advantage you're getting "free" Multiple Power Attacks with every hit at no additional END costs and without needing to meet any other MPA rules (you can use Skill Levels that apply only to the main attack and the DS automatically gets them).

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. Perhaps the Power should cost END by default.

 

Von-Dman, opinion?

Ghost Anger, what do you think?

Jeffery, in your opiniion, would this bring things into balance for the cost?

 

Now as to MPA problem, since I haven't actually seen this in action yet, not sure if it's problem by itself to start with or not. I'm thinking of a simple fix for this that has implemented with NND. Only one Damage Shield per Character by default. You want more, you need GM permission. I think this would keep the MPA from getting out of hand.

 

Opinions?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Damage Shield Construction

 

...He is proposing this as a new Standard Power/Attack Power with No Range - not turning an existing Power "No Range". Since Drain (the archetype Adjustment Power) is already No Range' date=' but doesn't damage people attacking you, his version version comes out as better than standard Drain, as it does more for the same point costs. His KA version is *cheaper* than the standard version, with the bonus of damaging attackers and no significant drawbacks.[/quote']

Ok, I want you to think about this very carefully Jeffrey, and give me your honest opinion.

 

Do you think Drain in and of itself is truely balanced with the other Adjustment Powers it is grouped with?

 

If not, then perhaps the problem stems from the fact that Drain isn't truely balanced to begin with, instead of a problem with the construct so far. It still might have problems, but Drain may not be the best example to reveal them.

 

If so, should not all the other Adjustment Powers also show this imbalance? Please give an example with another Adjustment Power.

 

Thanks.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Trebuchet]

Re: New Power: Damage Shield Construction

 

I think making Damage Shield a separate Power rather than an Advantage has a lot of merit, and I'm frankly astonished nobody has proposed this method before. Good thinking, schir1964. But I do agree it should always cost END unless purchased with Reduced END or Charges, and it should probably only act in the character's Phases unless it is bought Persistent (Which of course requires it be 0 END or built with Charges). That should go a long way towards mitigating the possibility of huge MPAs. (And of course, it is reasonable for GMs to include these factors when calculating campaign damage caps or guidelines.)

 

The mathematical questions I will leave to the more gifted, but I think it's safe to say that any change in Damage Shield needs to be more cost effective than the current rules but slightly less expensive in order to make them practical. As I've said in previous discussions on this topic, Damage Shield is as much defense as offense since it turns a successful attack by a character into a successful attack against the attacker. Therefore it needs to be less effective than a standard attack Power for inflicting damage, but not so much so that it becomes a cheap way to build overwhelming characters.

 

I'm not certain this method is superior to the suggested Trigger versions, but it is certainly worthy of further examination IMO.

[Vondy]

Re: New Power: Damage Shield Construction

 

Ok' date=' now we're getting somewhere. Perhaps the Power [i']should[/i] cost END by default.

 

Von-Dman, opinion?

Ghost Anger, what do you think?

Jeffery, in your opiniion, would this bring things into balance for the cost?

 

Now as to MPA problem, since I haven't actually seen this in action yet, not sure if it's problem by itself to start with or not. I'm thinking of a simple fix for this that has implemented with NND. Only one Damage Shield per Character by default. You want more, you need GM permission. I think this would keep the MPA from getting out of hand.

 

Opinions?

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

 

It would appear I misread your original intent. I thought it did cost enduarance by default. If it doesn't I would consider it problematic.

 

So, yes: I think it should cost endurance by default.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: New Power: Damage Shield Construction

 

Jeffery, in your opiniion, would this bring things into balance for the cost?

 

Now as to MPA problem, since I haven't actually seen this in action yet, not sure if it's problem by itself to start with or not. I'm thinking of a simple fix for this that has implemented with NND. Only one Damage Shield per Character by default. You want more, you need GM permission. I think this would keep the MPA from getting out of hand.

 

As I wrote earlier:

Personally, I think a Power that does damage to someone - whether defensively or not - should either Cost END or be bought at zero END. Damage is damage, and in a lot of settings/against a lot of opponents, Damage Shield equates to being able to attack opponents on their phases, as well as your own.

 

As written here, if one has the Power Cost END by default and requires a + 1/4 Advantage to stack damage in HTH maneuvers other than Grab, then it might be balanced... and still cheaper than Damage Shield as written in the books.

 

I personally still think the best fix would be to just have Damage Shield work as discussed in the 5E rules, but assign it a +1 Advantage and not require one to buy Continuous.

 

Beyond that:

I do think you're somewhat missing the point of what causes MPAs to be out of hand with the construct you propose. As is, it's fairly difficult to make MPAs work well unless you buy the most expensive Combat Skill Levels (5 or more points) to cover something like "All HTH", "All Combat" or "Overall." Your construct doesn't take that into account, so it works better than a normal Power for purposes of doing MPA. You'd automatically do DS damage with a Martial Punch (or virtually any other HTH Combat Maneuver, other than Dodge or Martial Dodge), on top of the maneuver damage. Toss in a HA attack with that and it gets uglier. That's why current DS rules require an extra Advantage (+1/4) to use it offensively.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: New Power: Damage Shield Construction

 

Ok, I want you to think about this very carefully Jeffrey, and give me your honest opinion.

 

Do you think Drain in and of itself is truely balanced with the other Adjustment Powers it is grouped with?

 

If not, then perhaps the problem stems from the fact that Drain isn't truely balanced to begin with, instead of a problem with the construct so far. It still might have problems, but Drain may not be the best example to reveal them.

 

If so, should not all the other Adjustment Powers also show this imbalance? Please give an example with another Adjustment Power.

 

Thanks.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Drain is balanced just fine. It is a no range Power that works well for what it is supposed to do. It's also the most basic Adjustment Power, the one the others are based on.

 

As to comparing other Adjustment Powers, well, you don't really provide a formula for using Transfer or other Powers with your construct. You set it up by damage type (Normal, Mental, Killing, Adjustment, Transform) rather than by Power - which makes sense, if you're trying to make it a separate Power, rather than basing it on basic powers. The problem is, a Transfer Damage Shield is a perfectly valid (if rather powerful) construct, but it works differently than Drain... and the different workings don't reflect themselves well in the sort of construct you're building here.

 

Obviously 1d6 of Transfer (base cost 15 points) should be more expensive as a Damage Shield than is 1d6 of Drain. Under your system, I'm not sure how much more, but probably 50% more per dice as a place to start.

[Ndreare]

Re: New Power: Damage Shield Construction

 

Obviously 1d6 of Transfer (base cost 15 points) should be more expensive as a Damage Shield than is 1d6 of Drain. Under your system, I'm not sure how much more, but probably 50% more per dice as a place to start.

 

Perhaps 20 per level for 1D6 transfer From X to Y, would be fare? If you want expanded effect you have to buy it.

 

I also think that it should cost END as a default.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: New Power: Damage Shield Construction

 

Perhaps 20 per level for 1D6 transfer From X to Y' date=' would be fare? If you want expanded effect you have to buy it. [/quote']

 

Well, as is, Transfer costs 50% more per 1d6 than Drain (15 vs. 10 pts). If you were to use this DS construct, Transfer should cost 50% more than Drain also, meaning 22.5 pts (I'd go with 23) per d6.

 

BTW, to be consistent across powers, 1d6 Killing Damage should also be 22 or 23 pts per 1d6, rather than the initially-listed cost of 20 pts per d6. For that matter, if you follow the general trend, Normal Damage should be 7 or 8 pts per 1d6 (EB = 5 pts, x 1.5 = 7.5).

 

Interestingly, in the construct as listed, normal damage costs 10 pts for 1d6, which is a 100% increase from base cost for normal damage. If you were to apply this idea to other things, a 1d6 Drain Damage Shield would cost 20 pts, a 1d6 Transfer Damage Shield would cost 30 pts, a 1d6 KA Damage Shield would cost 30 pts, etc. That is, btw, the *exact same result* I suggested earlier on this thread, and on another, earlier thread - make Damage Shield a straight +1 Advantage that does not need Continuous, or keep it at a +1/2 Advantage for Powers that are already Constant (such as Clinging). It should still cost END and such, though, just like any other Power that does damage, and I'm still all in favor of charging an additional +1/4 Advantage to have the DS be used offensively other than along with Grab.

 

In closing, I think that it makes more sense to have Damage Shield be a +1 Advantage to Attack Powers, rather than a separate Power, but if you want to build it as a separate Power, the best way to do it is probably to cost it as if it was a +1 Advantage to standard Powers.