What's the best way to learn Hero?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: What's the best way to learn Hero?

 

Shem -- looks good. I would only echo Von D-man's suggestions about moving points around, but it's not a necessity. You've got a perfectly playable character there.

 

I would like to make a strong suggestion that you make a few characters by hand without using HD, just to learn all of the formulas and how everything works together. But no one's going to say anything if you don't.

[RDU Neil]

Re: What's the best way to learn Hero?

 

Excellent character, Shem... and definitely playable in any of my "heroic level" campaigns.

 

Love the fact that you did Jack. The only thing I'd argue is "11-" on Astronomy? C'mon? This is Jack! His reaction to Carter's scientific musings are usually... "Uh... Sam... English please?" or "So that's bad... right?"

 

Just kidding. Solid character... and as to other comments about moving points around... that is a matter of taste. What I'd encourage for all Hero players, is to allow characters to change after you've played them a bit. If it turns out you forgot some skills like "KS: World Militaries" or maybe realize that you just don't need "Interrogation" as part of the character... then move some points around.

 

Some folks can be real sticklers for "once it's on the sheet, it's law" but I'd certainly encourage more flexibility when starting out. You Jack O'Neil will take on a life of his own, and tweaking the character should reflect that.

 

Good luck. Are you actually going to try a Stargate: SG-1 style game?

[BlackSword]

Re: What's the best way to learn Hero?

 

Some folks can be real sticklers for "once it's on the sheet, it's law" but I'd certainly encourage more flexibility when starting out. You Jack O'Neil will take on a life of his own, and tweaking the character should reflect that.

Not to de-rail into a 'how to play the game,' but both groups I play in follow this practice. We usually allow tweaks to the characters for one to two sessions, and then you have to pay XP for the changes. As Neil says, it allows you to make changes for things that you don't need, don't really fit the character after you've played him a few times, or skills that make more sense for the campaign or character. I think we found two sessions as a pretty fair chance before character freeze.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What's the best way to learn Hero?

 

You should definitely allow characters to be tweeked within the first couple of sessions, and dont forget "radiation accidents", which arent necessarily literal radiation accidents, where a character is redesigned from the ground up.

 

 

My basic rule about tweeking is that the character has to be able to do anything they have been seen doing in the game thus far, but the means by which they could have covered it can be different under the hood. Anything that hasnt actually been used yet or wouldnt screw up continuity is not a problem usually.

[Greatwyrm]

Re: What's the best way to learn Hero?

 

The only piece of advice I can give you is to remember that it's not nearly as hard as it looks. I think I'm kind of a weird HERO convert. Fuzion got me interested and there are no other HERO players in my area. Basically, it was just me, FrED, and the message boards. If that's all you've got, it will all "click" for you sooner or later, but it may take some time. It did for me.

[RDU Neil]

Re: What's the best way to learn Hero?

 

My basic rule about tweeking is that the character has to be able to do anything they have been seen doing in the game thus far, but the means by which they could have covered it can be different under the hood. Anything that hasnt actually been used yet or wouldnt screw up continuity is not a problem usually.

 

I totally agree with this. I've had characters who had some skill... say, "Combat Driving" on their sheet, and even fifteen adventures into the game they are like, "I've never driven a vehicle, or needed to. It's never come up, and the character isn't at all the free wheelin' guy I originally thought he was." So lose the skill, put the points where they are needed.

 

Like Killer Shrike said, if it hasn't been used, and doesn't mess with continuity, change is fine. YMMV.

[shem_whistler]

Re: What's the best way to learn Hero?

 

Thanks to everyone for their positive feedback of Jack.

 

To answer a few questions asked;

 

I don't have any plans to run a SG style game at the moment, I was just drawing on the series for inspiration, I was thinking that I could create the rest of SG-1 and then some 'baddies' and then use these as a base for trying out combat.

 

I will definitely create characters by hand as well, I can see that it might be a bad idea to become reliant on HD as I'll never have a grasp of the maths.

 

Also, thansk for suggestions on HD and different ideas for the character.

 

I was wondering what sort of points level I should construct 'thugs' to. In this case Jafar warriors, presumably you wouldn't point them at 150

 

Cheers again

Shem

[JMHammer]

Re: What's the best way to learn Hero?

 

The typical Jaffa warrior is pretty much like the typical modern human warrior in ability. The main differences are the regen/High REC (assuming we're not talking about rebel Jaffa who have removed their symbiote and are using Tritonin to stay alive), increased Strength (ditto), and less need for sleep and sustenance. Of course, there are a passle of disadvantages that go along with those bonuses so on balance they're about the same as an American military grunt. I'd set them up on 0 net points exclusive of equipment, just like any other Normal. Their regen and other special abilities and their improved Str etc. will be paid by taking some countering Disadvantages or one or a few lowered Characteristics.

 

If you have Jack at 15 on Str, Dex, Con, and Bod with a 4 Spd, then a typical Jaffa would have primaries of 10 across the board except for Str 15 and Dex 11. For figured, a few extra points of PD and ED like any other individual with some combat experience, a Spd of 2, and a few extra Rec thanks to the Goa'uld larva. Naturally they'd have Familiarity with Jaffa/Gou'uld weapons (a 2-point group including a mix of high tech and low tech, missile and melee). Typical Jaffa probably have 1 Combat Skill Level with Goa'uld Staff Weapons.

 

I bet most people would disagree and put these guys at Dex 14 and Spd 3 or thereabouts, but to me: Grunts is grunts and every mob of baddies shouldn't be composed of elite-level soldiers.

 

Be careful when creating the Staff Weapon and Zats. It's been proven over and over again in the series that these weapons are no more effective, and in many cases far less effective, than modern American military gear (i.e. guns). As Jack himself said, "This [referring to a Staff Weapon] is a weapon of terror; it's designed to terrorize the enemy. This [referring to a P90] is a weapon of war; it's designed to kill the enemy."

 

Looking forward to your further adaptations,

John H

[shem_whistler]

Re: What's the best way to learn Hero?

 

You might want to consider appropriate Perks such as Military Rank and Contacts. Another 1-point Perk to consider for Jack is "Possesses the Ancient Gene" or something similar.

So would it be better to use the perk to signify the military rank instead of the profession skill? or should I use both?

 

Cheers

Shem

[JMHammer]

Re: What's the best way to learn Hero?

 

So would it be better to use the perk to signify the military rank instead of the profession skill? or should I use both?

The Military Rank Perk will give Jack the ability to make lower-ranking members of the military follow his orders and all the usual nice things that go along with being a military officer, especially a high-ranking one like a Full Bird Colonel. The Professional Skill (PS: Air Force Officer) means that Jack knows how to fulfill his job description, can quote from the book of regulations, remembers which forms to fill out, etc. So use both.

[shem_whistler]

Re: What's the best way to learn Hero?

 

Love the fact that you did Jack. The only thing I'd argue is "11-" on Astronomy? C'mon? This is Jack! His reaction to Carter's scientific musings are usually... "Uh... Sam... English please?" or "So that's bad... right?"

 

I've downgraded this to an 8-, he definitely had an interest in it as a hobby, I'm sure you saw him on the roof of his house with a telescope 'stargazing' during the pilot episode. And it was in his house at random times throught the series.

 

I really wanted to keep this as I like the idea of skills that make up the character without having to be obviously useful.

 

It feels somehow less munchkiny

 

Shem

[JMHammer]

Re: What's the best way to learn Hero?

 

This is Jack! His reaction to Carter's scientific musings are usually... "Uh... Sam... English please?" or "So that's bad... right?"

It's been pointed out a great number of times that Jack is a lot smarter than he wants people to realize. Sure, he does not have a Ph.D. in quantum physics, and he's very impatient; but his interest in astronomy goes beyond having a telescope to peep at the neighbors.

[shem_whistler]

Updated jack

 

Having taken everyone's comments on board I have modified my write up of Jack.

 

Jack O'Neill

 

Player:

 

Val	Char	Cost
15	STR	5
15	DEX	15
15	CON	10
15	BODY	10
18	INT	8
14	EGO	8
18	PRE	8
13	COM	2
6	PD	3
4	ED	1
4	SPD	15
6	REC	0
30	END	0
31	STUN	0

6" RUN02" SWIM03" LEAP0Characteristics Cost: 85

 

 

 

Cost	Skill
8	+1 with All Combat
3	Breakfall 12-
3	Combat Piloting 12-
3	Deduction 13-
3	Demolitions 13-
3	Fast Draw 12-
3	Interrogation 13-
3	Oratory 13-
2	PS: Colonel USAF 11-
1	SS: Astronomy 8-
2	KS: Military Forces 11-
2	KS: Special Ops 11-
2	KS: Air Force Officer 11-
3	Security Systems 13-
3	Shadowing 13-
3	Stealth 12-
3	Survival 13-
3	Systems Operation 13-
1	TF: Combat Aircraft, Wheeled Military Vehicles
3	Tactics 13-
5	WF: Assault Rifles/LMGs, Handguns, Rifles, Shotguns, Small Arms, Blades, Goa'uld Weapons, Unarmed Combat

Skills Cost: 62

 

Cost	Perk
2	Contact: General Hammond 11-
1	Fringe Benefit: Colonel

Perks Cost: 3

 

 

 

Total Character Cost: 150

 

Val	Disadvantages
5	DF: Military Uniform (Easily Concealed; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Virtually Everyone)
25	Hunted: The System Lords 11- (Mo Pow, NCI, Harshly Punish)
15	Psych. Lim.: Sense of Honour (Common, Strong)
10	Psych. Lim.: Compulsively Sarcastic (Common, Moderate)
20	Soc. Lim.: Subject to Orders (Very Frequently, Major)

Disadvantage Points: 75

 

Base Points: 75

Experience Required: 0

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

 

Anymore feedback greatfully received.

 

Coming soon, Sam Carter

[shem_whistler]

Re: What's the best way to learn Hero?

 

It's been pointed out a great number of times that Jack is a lot smarter than he wants people to realize. Sure' date=' he does not have a Ph.D. in quantum physics, and he's very impatient; but his interest in astronomy goes beyond having a telescope to peep at the neighbors.[/quote']

Agreed, that's why I didn't want him to have a low Int, but he never shows any incredible aptitude with any particualr intellectual pursuit, take the episode with the crossword for example.

 

However he is very smart at what he does, combat situations, tight spots, etc.

 

Therefore I think a hobby level is good enough for him.

 

Shem

[Dust Raven]

Re: What's the best way to learn Hero?

 

You should definitely allow characters to be tweeked within the first couple of sessions' date=' and dont forget "radiation accidents", which arent necessarily literal radiation accidents, where a character is redesigned from the ground up.[/quote']

I have a house rules that allows a player to completely rewrite there character after the first adventure. I've done this generally because when a player makes a new character they almost always forget some small but essential part or find out a certain build didn't quite work they way they wanted.

 

---------------------

 

Great rewrite of Jack!

 

I know Jack's smart, but I wouldn't give him that high an INT. INT doesn't represent how smart, clever or ingenious a character is. I represents how alert and quick thinking he is (If I could, I'd switch the costs of INT and EGO and make ICV instead of ECV. I just see it that way, but oh well, that's another topic).

 

His rank Perk should also be worth more. A colonel has lots of privilages. Jack specifically has "pulled rank" several times with various SGC personel, has got access to all levels of the SGC and other military facilities, not to mention he managed to "borrow" Maybourne for a day (though this last one he could just as easily have had Contacts or Favors).

 

And you sould also think about a Contact: Thor. They did name their first ubership after him.

[shem_whistler]

Re: What's the best way to learn Hero?

 

Great rewrite of Jack!

Thanks

 

I know Jack's smart' date=' but I wouldn't give him that high an INT. INT doesn't represent how smart, clever or ingenious a character is. I represents how alert and quick thinking he is (If I could, I'd switch the costs of INT and EGO and make ICV instead of ECV. I just see it that way, but oh well, that's another topic).[/quote']

It's been really hard knowing what the 'value' of a stat is, if it was D20 I would know what represents what, but as I am not yet familiar with the system, it is hard to judge.

 

Does anyone have any resources that tell you what each stat value is comparable to? Something that would make it easier to assign values to characteristics.

 

His rank Perk should also be worth more. A colonel has lots of privilages. Jack specifically has "pulled rank" several times with various SGC personel, has got access to all levels of the SGC and other military facilities, not to mention he managed to "borrow" Maybourne for a day (though this last one he could just as easily have had Contacts or Favors).

 

And you sould also think about a Contact: Thor. They did name their first ubership after him.

Thanks for the pickup, I hadn't realised that the Perk was scaleable, I would suggest that it be worth 5 points, as he is about halfway up the chain of command. Thoughts?

 

The contact of Thor is a good one, I'll have to put that in

 

Cheers for now

Shem

[Legendsmiths]

Re: What's the best way to learn Hero?

 

The value of stats is relative to the system. There are numerous conversion tools/tables out there, but look at the key breakpoints.

 

OCV/DCV give you a pretty good indicater. In fact, they kind of correlate to the base stat bonus for DEX in d20, in that the human max (20 DEX) gives you a 7 CV and the average (8-10 DEX) gives you a 3 CV. Hmmm, 7 - 3 = 4. DEX 18 in d20 = +4. That's the benchmark I use anyway.

 

Stat rolls also tell the story. Converting d20 modifiers/DC works pretty well on a 3/5 basis with DC 15 as roughly equivalent to an 11- Hero roll. So, if a challenge is DC 25 in d20, 25-15 = 10 * 3/5 = -6. Basically for every +5 in d20 you do a +3 modifier. If the +5 is to DC, making things harder, it's worth a -3.

 

STR and other raw power stats have value in their own right (e.g. lift, leap, damage), but the human ranges correlate to d20 fairly well. I wouldn't worry about it. Don't focus on doing a straight conversion... it's better to do the impression of the character in the new system than to fit it perfectly. As a rough comparison, +1 STR mod in d20 = +3 in Hero. +2 STR mod = +5. So, an 18 STR d20 = 20 STR HERO. Whether that's perfect or not it fits the character creation models and most creatures.

 

Hope this helps. Others will have different views, but this has always worked for me and I use a lot of d20 adventures in my Hero games on the fly (no prep conversion).

[arcady]

Re: What's the best way to learn Hero?

 

Champions was one of the smaller and rules light systems back when I learned it.

 

I learned the basics in play, and found I could teach the system in five minutes or less.

 

All you had to do then was show somebody how to count body and stun, and roll a given number or less on 3d6 for everything else.

 

You can start with that, and let the details filter in over time.

 

Let somebody else manage the speed chart, what this or that can do, and so on. Just do whatever you think you ought to be able to do given the genre you play in and what your character has been described as able to do.

 

As you play, pay attention to the mechanics that pop up as a result of your choices in actions.

[RDU Neil]

Re: What's the best way to learn Hero?

 

Champions was one of the smaller and rules light systems back when I learned it.

 

I learned the basics in play, and found I could teach the system in five minutes or less.

 

All you had to do then was show somebody how to count body and stun, and roll a given number or less on 3d6 for everything else.

 

You can start with that, and let the details filter in over time.

 

Let somebody else manage the speed chart, what this or that can do, and so on. Just do whatever you think you ought to be able to do given the genre you play in and what your character has been described as able to do.

 

As you play, pay attention to the mechanics that pop up as a result of your choices in actions.

 

This is extremely important, yet something that very few people do. I notice two preferences in folks who game. One set (the majority in my experience) look to the mechanic to give them ideas about what to do... and the other do it as stated above. They simple say "I do X" and then go hunt up the mechanic that best reflects that action.

 

This comes out in play (and ties in to other thread I've currently read about combat description and flare) as one group saying, "Ok... I use Offensive Strike because it gives me +4d6 damage and I can compensate for the -2 OCV with my levels" and the other group who says, "Holy Crap! That soldier just tried to take my head off. I swing at him as hard as I could. I have to take him down before he kills me!" Then uses Offensive Strike because it best reflects what the character is trying to do.

 

DescriptionTHEN the mechanic. Mechanic, then maybe description.

 

I've found with new players to Hero, the "mechanic first" option is often overwhelming. They get the Hero-phile who jumps in with all kinds of jargon and numbers, saying, "Ok... what you want to do is maximize your percentage chance of hitting, so slot Combat Levels for OCV. This +3 will put you at a 12 or less to hit which gives you a better than 50% chance of hitting based on a statistically normal bell curve..." etc., etc.

 

Eyes of new player glaze over as they mumble "I thought this was about being a super hero?"

 

I've found the better way is to do description first... and let the mechanics be learned as the description warrants. "You are on patrol when you see a large guy in purple and orange armor tearing the back doors off of an Brinks truck. What do you do?" If they start to look at the charcter sheet, I just say, "Don't worry about the rules... just tell me what a guy who can fly and shoot flame out of his eyes and likes to be in spotlight would do?"

 

Then they say, eyes wide and smiling, "Ok.. yeah... cool.... I fly down toward him shouting "Hey tacky pants!" and throw some little jets over his head. I don't want to set anything on fire... just get his attention!" GM then says, "Ok... that is basically a mild presence attack, disiplaying a power... so here's how that works..." and give them the rules.

 

Second option, in my experience, is the best way to get new players into Hero. I've had some who play for a long time, and never bother to learn the rules, 'cause the description and flavor is what matters... leave the rules to the GM. Others quickly see how it works... "Ok... I can use various mechanics to simulate anything I want to do, in different ways. Cool." Suddenly they are reading the rules, and tweaking characters and have absorbed the concept of "Reasoning from effect" without every having heard that rather dry, theoretical term.

 

Highly recommend trying the "description first, then mechanic" method.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: What's the best way to learn Hero?

 

Listen what the man said.

 

That's how I run my convention games where players want to play for 4 hours, not learn the rules. That doesn't mean I gloss over the rules, I just get them to focus on what they want to do and then give them a modifier. Maybe there's some back and forth when they see how difficult or easy something is, but it works.

 

In the end though, it comes down to what style of gaming you like.

[shem_whistler]

Re: What's the best way to learn Hero?

 

This comes out in play (and ties in to other thread I've currently read about combat description and flare) as one group saying, "Ok... I use Offensive Strike because it gives me +4d6 damage and I can compensate for the -2 OCV with my levels" and the other group who says, "Holy Crap! That soldier just tried to take my head off. I swing at him as hard as I could. I have to take him down before he kills me!" Then uses Offensive Strike because it best reflects what the character is trying to do.

 

DescriptionTHEN the mechanic. Mechanic, then maybe description.

Completely agree more, I've recently played in a TORG game where two of the characters are real gun nuts and the GM has intoduced some more rules for combat and there have been times where the rest of us have had to sit for what felt like ages as these 2 are like

 

'If you use the multifire option with an aimed shot and take out the for on the left that gives +4 and I'll do a sustained fire on the main guy here which should beat his armour.' 'Hang on, if you do this then we get another +2.........'

 

I'm paraphrasing as I don't know the rules for TORG that well but it is all about getting that last plus 1 out of the dice, and inside I've been 'just say what your character would do and go from there'.

 

Taking the Description THEN mechanic idea I was thinking last night, after looking round the forums, that there is not a lot of Stargate stuff here (saw the stuff about Zat's and Staff weapons), so it occured to me to carry on the line of thinking I have started with Jack and try to create as much as I can from the series. This way I can start with some basic Heroic characters bring in some baddies to fight, think about creating weapons, tech etc. Move up to more powerful characters and concepts, ships etc.

 

This should fulfill the "I have the vision, now how the heck do I do that"

 

Does this seem like a reasonable route to go to try out mechanics?

 

Would people have an interest in this?

 

Cheers

Shem

[RDU Neil]

Re: What's the best way to learn Hero?

 

Completely agree more, I've recently played in a TORG game where two of the characters are real gun nuts and the GM has intoduced some more rules for combat and there have been times where the rest of us have had to sit for what felt like ages as these 2 are like

 

'If you use the multifire option with an aimed shot and take out the for on the left that gives +4 and I'll do a sustained fire on the main guy here which should beat his armour.' 'Hang on, if you do this then we get another +2.........'

 

I'm paraphrasing as I don't know the rules for TORG that well but it is all about getting that last plus 1 out of the dice, and inside I've been 'just say what your character would do and go from there'.

 

HAH! Yeah... I hate that kind of play. It is certainly an accepted and EXPECTED kind of play in many groups. To some people, the point of the game is to master the mechanics to optimize effects and "win." Not my cuppa, and sounds like it isn't yours. One of the hardest things to do in role playing groups is discuss the fact that people want very different things from the game. Hope you can work out the differences, but just realize that if you want a game with more description and flavor and character, and less number crunching, rule playing... others just might not "get it." Just as you don't get why they are so into maximizing offensive numbers (and I don't either) they don't get why that description and character bits and the fact that you might make a tactically incorrect decision ON PURPOSE because of your character, is appealing to you. (I mean, to play Jack O'Neil, you have to occassionally make some less than proper military decisions and get screwed over pretty regularly... and ENJOY that! )

 

Taking the Description THEN mechanic idea I was thinking last night, after looking round the forums, that there is not a lot of Stargate stuff here (saw the stuff about Zat's and Staff weapons), so it occured to me to carry on the line of thinking I have started with Jack and try to create as much as I can from the series. This way I can start with some basic Heroic characters bring in some baddies to fight, think about creating weapons, tech etc. Move up to more powerful characters and concepts, ships etc.

 

This should fulfill the "I have the vision, now how the heck do I do that"

 

Does this seem like a reasonable route to go to try out mechanics?

 

Would people have an interest in this?

Cheers

Shem

 

I think this is the perfect way to learn Hero and develop a campaign. Have the concepts and ideas you want as the "end result" in mind... then look at the rules and use the ones that help you realize that end result. Don't worry about finding the "best way" to simulate a staff weapon on the first try. Trial and error is best. Start with something simple like 3d6 RKA, Obvious Accessibe Focus. Done. Now... over time you can layer on advantages and disads like Armor Piercing (seems to go through Jaffa armor like butter) and maybe tweak the dice damage up or down... is there a bulky or "hard to handle limitation" since it's an awkward weapon... how about the damage it does when you hit someone with it (kinda acts like a big cattle prod now and then) etc. Just don't try to do it all right away. Piece by piece.

 

You should create a thread in the Star Hero boards where you post this stuff as you create it, and get feedback there.

 

Good luck.

[shem_whistler]

Re: What's the best way to learn Hero?

 

As suggested I have started a new thread over here.

 

Stargate Hero

 

Hope to see you there

Shem