Cosmic Level Gaming (e.g. Authority)

[Legendsmiths]

After consuming Astro City at Darren Watts' recommendation (thank you sir!!!), I was hungry for more. At the same con that resulted in Mr. Watts' advice, I also met Mark MacKinnon and discussed Authority RPG. Not having read the comic, I decided to do some reading.

 

Sweet. As I was reading it, which was a lot of fun, I realized it was a scale of game I had never imagined running. I've played in too many 250/350 pt games to count, and more heroic level on top of that, but the stuff these guys were doing was pretty out there, larger than I'm used to. I realize that the point level isn't the only thing, but regardless how do you manage the scope?

 

With practically everyone having cosmic level power pools, albeit very nicely themed, it seems that some things like battling a horde of agents (horde being 12 or so in a standard level game) become mechanically impractical. I read the series with the alien invasion/set up Authority for the fall (forget the title) where Midnighter says, "Do you have any idea how tiring it is to run a million permations of combat on a 1000 combatants?" and that's how it was drawn. Cool story, but how?

 

I'm not really considering a game at this level, but for those that do run at that level, what is it like? As a GM, how do you manage the scale of possibilities without getting into a, "I create a big schtick and destroy the villain with it" - "The villain blocks your schtick with his schtick and creates another schtick that swallows your city-sized spaceship" - "Dammit, he's always got the right schtick!!!".

 

Thanks. I'll take my answer off the air

[MitchellS]

Re: Cosmic Level Gaming (e.g. Authority)

 

There's quite a bit of information on how to run such a high-powered game in Galactic Champions. I'm not an Authority fan myself (a little too bloody for me) but I love Astro City (just finished reading Astro City: A Visitor's Guide - Loved it!). I think a great many times the scope of the game is as much in the narrative as it is in the rolling of dice. Saying you're making a "thousand" computations in a few seconds really just means you're making a Tactics roll with a number of negatives. At those power levels there's really no reason to even roll dice against normals. The players just describe what they want to do and the GM should just tell them how successful they were against the army (I guess you could also use the mass combat rules from Fantasy Hero for this too).

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Cosmic Level Gaming (e.g. Authority)

 

Think "big plots." GRAB going after a big diamond doesn't cut it. Dr. Destroyer trying to disrupt the multiverse so he can cut off all ties between this world and the others - all to better allow him absolute control of this world when he then takes it over - is more like it. This is the time to cut loose with wild plots.

 

Focus on roleplaying. With characters this powerful, fights alone - unless the characters feel a very strong, personal stake in them - become tedious. Make sure the characters are interesting outside combat.

 

Be ready to home-brew a lot of the villains/threats you use. There are some ready-made ones that are good - Dr. Destroyer, Skarn, Tyrannon, the Dragon - but at this power level, the Ultimates barely qualify as speed bumps, Warlord and his crew get pasted inside one turn and even heavy-hitters like Holocaust or Gravitar are going to need to be part of a team of equally-powerful villains in order to present a challenge to the PCs. You can revise some villains, but you reach a point where adding points makes many vilains mutate beyond recognition (Utility at 750 pts makes little sense, really), such that you're often better off making up villains. The villains you make up are more likely to end up being mutant powerhouses, mystic entities or megalomaniac conquerers than thieves, assassins and guys with ray guns.

 

I have posted some high-powered villains in my "Sharing The Wealth" thread. These are villains intended for my New Sentinels campaign, which is a very high-powered one (characters built on 750 points or so). Feel free to check those out, or use them if you like. GALACTIC CHAMPIONS also offers some good villains (and a couple of stinkers, sadly). If you change a few details (mostly background info stuff), people like Slug 3000 can be readily dropped into non-GALACTIC campaigns.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Cosmic Level Gaming (e.g. Authority)

 

I disagree re: Utility; upping his point value could consist mostly of outfitting him with more gear. Granted, he'd start looking like "Evil Batman who enjoys beating up superhumans," but thats not necessarily a bad thing.

 

But yes, using the Authority as a model for cosmic level gaming is a bad, bad move. Way, way too many fights with what amount to mooks. Much better off reading Morrison JLA or Busiek Avengers.

[OddHat]

Re: Cosmic Level Gaming (e.g. Authority)

 

I disagree re: Utility; upping his point value could consist mostly of outfitting him with more gear. Granted, he'd start looking like "Evil Batman who enjoys beating up superhumans," but thats not necessarily a bad thing.

 

But yes, using the Authority as a model for cosmic level gaming is a bad, bad move. Way, way too many fights with what amount to mooks. Much better off reading Morrison JLA or Busiek Avengers.

 

Well, the Ellis Stormwatch and Authority were generally very good. It was only after Ellis left that Authority became (imo) crap.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Cosmic Level Gaming (e.g. Authority)

 

Think "big plots." GRAB going after a big diamond doesn't cut it. Dr. Destroyer trying to disrupt the multiverse so he can cut off all ties between this world and the others - all to better allow him absolute control of this world when he then takes it over - is more like it. This is the time to cut loose with wild plots.

 

Focus on roleplaying. With characters this powerful, fights alone - unless the characters feel a very strong, personal stake in them - become tedious. Make sure the characters are interesting outside combat.

 

Be ready to home-brew a lot of the villains/threats you use. There are some ready-made ones that are good - Dr. Destroyer, Skarn, Tyrannon, the Dragon - but at this power level, the Ultimates barely qualify as speed bumps, Warlord and his crew get pasted inside one turn and even heavy-hitters like Holocaust or Gravitar are going to need to be part of a team of equally-powerful villains in order to present a challenge to the PCs. You can revise some villains, but you reach a point where adding points makes many vilains mutate beyond recognition (Utility at 750 pts makes little sense, really), such that you're often better off making up villains. The villains you make up are more likely to end up being mutant powerhouses, mystic entities or megalomaniac conquerers than thieves, assassins and guys with ray guns.

 

I have posted some high-powered villains in my "Sharing The Wealth" thread. These are villains intended for my New Sentinels campaign, which is a very high-powered one (characters built on 750 points or so). Feel free to check those out, or use them if you like. GALACTIC CHAMPIONS also offers some good villains (and a couple of stinkers, sadly). If you change a few details (mostly background info stuff), people like Slug 3000 can be readily dropped into non-GALACTIC campaigns.

I like the Doctor Destroyer Plot a lot. You are the man, Jeff.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Cosmic Level Gaming (e.g. Authority)

 

Big plots with big fights. The occasional fight with a scrub team (like Eurostar or the Ultimates) is nice to show the players how powerful their characters are. Do it on a night when not everybody shows up. "So, it's just you two tonight. Looks like it's time for Eurostar to try and take over the Hague."

 

I'm running a Galactic Champions game right now. In the first session, the players had to super-charge their spacecraft to get halfway across the galaxy in a matter of hours. Once they arrived at the planet in peril, they had to fight an alien invasion force that consisted of 2 Thorgon (check the Terran Empire book) Colossus ships and 3 Thorgon Panthers (Spacer's Toolkit) which were orbitally bombarding the planet. Then they had to stop the troops that were already planetside. I just hand-waved some of the combat. I let them fight it out for 2 or 3 phases against some of the troops in their first encounter, and then narrated "Okay, you'll be able to round up the rest of them" as soon as the novelty of beating down scrubs had worn off. They then had to race back across the galaxy to stop the real threat--back on Earth.

 

Big, universe-shaking threats work well. Relatively light comedic adventures can be fun as well (maybe something involving Foxbat), where players have to think. Just don't make them think too hard. Players get really frustrated when you take away their shiny powers (and that negates the whole point of having universe-scale characters). So most problem solving should be in the nature of figuring out a) how to use your super-whiz-bang attack to beat the bad guy, how to reprogram the universe-destroyer, or c) how to outsmart the rascally villain.

[BcAugust]

Re: Cosmic Level Gaming (e.g. Authority)

 

Hmm, I'd actually say the oppisite. Combat becomes less and less important, and how they explore the use of power becomes more so. Also, it's interesting to see how the world around them acts toward them. If they're powerful enough to change the world, what does that mean? Think of the indirect effects of people like Superman or Captain America, and how they change lives without even seeming to try. The character's principles make a lot more difference at this level. This is a good excuse to pull up those epic level disadvantages.

 

Also, pull up personal relationships a lot more. What would the person you love say if you were capable of moving the Earth? How do you relate to "normal people"? Do you see yourself as something different, or better? Or are you just someone with gifts, and same as anyone else?

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Cosmic Level Gaming (e.g. Authority)

 

I like the Doctor Destroyer Plot a lot. You are the man' date=' Jeff.[/quote']

 

Thank you! I just pulled that one out of the air, but it *does* have some potential.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Cosmic Level Gaming (e.g. Authority)

 

Hmm, I'd actually say the oppisite. Combat becomes less and less important, and how they explore the use of power becomes more so. Also, it's interesting to see how the world around them acts toward them. If they're powerful enough to change the world, what does that mean? Think of the indirect effects of people like Superman or Captain America, and how they change lives without even seeming to try. The character's principles make a lot more difference at this level. This is a good excuse to pull up those epic level disadvantages.

 

Also, pull up personal relationships a lot more. What would the person you love say if you were capable of moving the Earth? How do you relate to "normal people"? Do you see yourself as something different, or better? Or are you just someone with gifts, and same as anyone else?

 

Maybe it's just the people I game with, but absolutely no way. No offense, but this leads to self-important navel-staring. There's also the fact that I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable acting out a deep, meaningful conversation with the gamemaster when I'm pretending to be my character and he's pretending to be my character's girlfriend. Ick.

 

Big combats. Trust me. I've run, and played in, a couple of these games. Introspection works fine in a written story (though I still think it gets old fast), but I get absolutely zero enjoyment from sitting around a table and discussing how my character sees himself. Your mileage may vary, of course.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Cosmic Level Gaming (e.g. Authority)

 

It might help that we do our game using a chat client, so reading is what we do all the time, anyway.

[BcAugust]

Re: Cosmic Level Gaming (e.g. Authority)

 

Maybe it's just the people I game with, but absolutely no way. No offense, but this leads to self-important navel-staring. There's also the fact that I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable acting out a deep, meaningful conversation with the gamemaster when I'm pretending to be my character and he's pretending to be my character's girlfriend. Ick.

 

Big combats. Trust me. I've run, and played in, a couple of these games. Introspection works fine in a written story (though I still think it gets old fast), but I get absolutely zero enjoyment from sitting around a table and discussing how my character sees himself. Your mileage may vary, of course.

 

Strange, I've ran and played a couple of these games myself. And I've never had anywhere close to that experience. In fact, I've usually had players try and get through combat as quick as possible to get back to the "real" game. Though obviously, it does depend on your players, as you've said.

 

Oh, and Jeff's high point Champions game has the logs online, if you're interested. Look for the New Sentinels thread here on the board, you might pick up some ideas there, too.

[OddHat]

Re: Cosmic Level Gaming (e.g. Authority)

 

Most of my own experience in this came from a group that eventually earned enough XP to be the "best in the world". I found a few things worked well, but then this group had been together a long time:

 

1) Keep the Soap Opera going. Maybe it was because we had female playes, or older players, but the relationships between various heroes, their rivals and out-and-out villains often took far more time than fighting.

 

2) Hand wave mooks, but throw them at the heroes. Nothing lets the players feel powerful like wiping out an army, but it is dull to play out. Just role play it.

 

3) Respect the Shtick. What's the point of being the Most Powerful Mentalist In The World if everyone suddenly has 35 Mental Defense and 75% Mental Damage reduction? What's the point of haveing Earth's Most Powerful Laser Gun if everyone has 35 hardened ED? If you have to heap God Like defenses on a minor NPC to make the plot work, get a new plot. These are meant to be Cosmic Heroes, let them be Cosmic. Buffing the top bad guys is a must, but don't buff the bar tender.

 

4) Diversions, Tricks, Lies, and Politics. Even a mentalist can be fooled by another mentalist, especially one with memory altering powers (Transformation Attack or Mental Illusions used on NPCs) or Images vs. Telepathy. A massive diversionary attack also often works. An NPC with authority who is either a fool or a dupe is often a great way to put problems in the way of Our Heroes. Basically you need plots that don't depend on straight line tactics to challenge the group.

 

5) Shake the Earth. Threats to an entire nation, the world, and reality itself need to be dealt with by someone; why not your Cosmic Heroes? A good Alien Invasion can take up a month of gaming.

 

6) Don't get hung up on your plot. Always true, but more so at this level. The heroes will surprise you, so be ready to improvise.

 

7) Amazo and The Injustice League. Even with Galactic Level heroes, you can always have fun with a villain who combines all of their powers, or a villain team using their character sheets.

 

8) High Point is Not Always High Powered. You can always set your campaign active point limits fairly lose to standard heroes (say 80 active points or so), let people have 350 points to design their characters, then tell them "OK, now add 150 points worth of Contacts, Bases, Vehicles, and followers." What they come up with will often be great fun.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Cosmic Level Gaming (e.g. Authority)

 

Most of my own experience in this came from a group that eventually earned enough XP to be the "best in the world". I found a few things worked well, but then this group had been together a long time:

 

1) Keep the Soap Opera going. Maybe it was because we had female playes, or older players, but the relationships between various heroes, their rivals and out-and-out villains often took far more time than fighting.

 

2) Hand wave mooks, but throw them at the heroes. Nothing lets the players feel powerful like wiping out an army, but it is dull to play out. Just role play it.

 

3) Respect the Shtick. What's the point of being the Most Powerful Mentalist In The World if everyone suddenly has 35 Mental Defense and 75% Mental Damage reduction? What's the point of haveing Earth's Most Powerful Laser Gun if everyone has 35 hardened ED? If you have to heap God Like defenses on a minor NPC to make the plot work, get a new plot. These are meant to be Cosmic Heroes, let them be Cosmic. Buffing the top bad guys is a must, but don't buff the bar tender.

 

4) Diversions, Tricks, Lies, and Politics. Even a mentalist can be fooled by another mentalist, especially one with memory altering powers (Transformation Attack or Mental Illusions used on NPCs) or Images vs. Telepathy. A massive diversionary attack also often works. An NPC with authority who is either a fool or a dupe is often a great way to put problems in the way of Our Heroes. Basically you need plots that don't depend on straight line tactics to challenge the group.

 

5) Shake the Earth. Threats to an entire nation, the world, and reality itself need to be dealt with by someone; why not your Cosmic Heroes? A good Alien Invasion can take up a month of gaming.

 

6) Don't get hung up on your plot. Always true, but more so at this level. The heroes will surprise you, so be ready to improvise.

 

7) Amazo and The Injustice League. Even with Galactic Level heroes, you can always have fun with a villain who combines all of their powers, or a villain team using their character sheets.

 

8) High Point is Not Always High Powered. You can always set your campaign active point limits fairly lose to standard heroes (say 80 active points or so), let people have 350 points to design their characters, then tell them "OK, now add 150 points worth of Contacts, Bases, Vehicles, and followers." What they come up with will often be great fun.

 

I think this sums up alot of the relevant points for our campaign.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Cosmic Level Gaming (e.g. Authority)

 

I think that a lotof good points have been made. For what it is worth, can I wave this one at you:

 

1. High powered games are often a lot more work for the GM: it is superman syndrome - how do you hide something from someone who can see through everything except lead and who can rip lead lining out without breaking a nail? You need to be cunning, and even then, players tend to do - or try and do - much more than a character written in a book or on film.

 

2. Don't model on existing high powered characters - you'll be disappointed that your version of The Midnighter gets taken out as a result of a few lucky rolls, or becasue a major villain hit him rather than Apollo. You know the Authority is not going to be wiped out in the book - they are the book - or if they do,they'll be back. In an interesting game they will be facing villains who can take them down either by strength or Team Achilles guile.

 

3. High powered is as high powered does - I have played with a group of 250+ point characters, didn't hand them character sheets, just pictures and bios, and let them rip. They were surprised at how low point powered they were: the team were real world shakers - it depends on the challenges they face. This lot defeated Gods. Maybe not quite straight up face to face and fist to fist, but they won. And they left a 3km deep crater in Spain, but that is a loooong story...

 

4. Killing attacks. Be aware that an 18d6 attack will almost always get near to the average of 56 stun/ 18 body, but a 6d6 killing attack can do nearly three times that stun and twice that body with alarming regularity. Play by the rules, die by the rules - be prepared to muff it in favour of flavour.