Fixing Martial Artists

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Understood' date=' but what I think I'm hearing is him express this is normal and our battles are aberrant, and each situation I describe is either unheard of or just atypical for him. Do you find his situation typical?[/quote']

 

Actually, what I'm saying, is two things:

 

One) I have not had many lengthy combats, and usual causes of length is that only one character was able to be worn down.

 

Two) That "gang tackle" is tactically optimal, because it reduces the amoung of harm the enemy as a whole can do.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Okay, that makes sense.

 

As you say though, don't you find PCs and NPCs tend to avoid getting hit? And with varying SPDs I just don't see people frequently able to coordinate as many hits as you indicate. Sometimes, absolutely, and you see that a lot on either seg 12 or when people hold to get in a shot on a desired target, but it's not as if either side's going to let that happen.

 

Sure, there are misses. But that just means waiting till their next attack. And if someone get's stunned, there's a good chance someone will have an action before their next phase... _especially_ with varying Speed values.

 

And generally it's easy to get a shot with a half move.

[zornwil]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Actually, what I'm saying, is two things:

 

One) I have not had many lengthy combats, and usual causes of length is that only one character was able to be worn down.

 

Two) That "gang tackle" is tactically optimal, because it reduces the amoung of harm the enemy as a whole can do.

I don't disagree with statement #2, obviously statement #1 is accurate for you but not in my expeirence.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Sure, but it involves taking cover or a brief withdrawal.

[/Quote]

 

If the target of a coordinated attack has two phases spare to 1) get out of the way and 2) take recovery, somebody is not doing their job.

 

Surely. But how often do players go an entire turn without gettng hit, the 1 or 2 on a team that typically are that agile aside.

[/Quote]

 

If both sides are focusing their firepower on a few targets, this is likely. Actually, it becomes nearly inevitable.

 

I don't disagree it happens, it does IME as well, but it's not like it happens every battle or that there's any one so scary or apparent an attacker.

 

Plus don't you have villains in reserve sometimes?

 

Villains in reserve would ALSO not take recoveries.

 

Usually everyone can agree who the biggest threats are. Failing that, they can agree on who is closest, or most likely to fold like an umbrella.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

I don't disagree with statement #2' date=' obviously statement #1 is accurate for you but not in my expeirence.[/quote']

 

Well, it is a case of effect and cause.

[zornwil]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

If the target of a coordinated attack has two phases spare to 1) get out of the way and 2) take recovery' date=' somebody is not doing their job.[/quote']

 

Again, depends on SPD, the position of other teammates, etc.. Don't forget if a comrade falls on either side, someone's also going to take time (sometimes) to get him up.

 

If both sides are focusing their firepower on a few targets, this is likely. Actually, it becomes nearly inevitable.

 

Fair enough.

 

Villains in reserve would ALSO not take recoveries.

 

True!

 

But just in reference to either side needing to take a recovery when they're winning or holding their own and have an opportunity to do so. Then again, never mind, if your battles typically don't last more than a turn, it's sort of irrelevant at that point.

 

Usually everyone can agree who the biggest threats are. Failing that, they can agree on who is closest, or most likely to fold like an umbrella.

 

How do they have time to do all this? How do they know either who will fold or who is toughest until a few phases (let alone segs) have passed?

 

Also, one thing I don't get - if you have fewer villains (common for a big battle), and they knock out a character, do they take the time to put that guy down further while 4 or 5 remaining PCs are bearing down on them (or him)?

 

Another question - do you not have much maneuvering around? A big part of the tactics are blocking line of sight and preventing people from getting shots. Similarly, there's the role of non-combatants and environmental damage and the non-punitive goals (such as grabbing something) of (usually) the villains.

[Kristopher]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Even in those cases, what _should happen (tactically) is that one target gets taken down at a time. (Assuming multiple people on both sides). They go splat, then another goes splat, and recoveries are too risky.

 

One on one, if defenses are high enough, they can matter... but my "style" doesn't really like those kinds of fights. (You cannot win from a defensive stance! Attack and be done with it! )

 

With one fully relevant recover, 1pt REC is "worth" 1.5 pts - 1 STUN (1pt), 1 END (1/2pt)

With two relevant relevant recoveries, 1pt REC is worth 3pts, with three it's worth 4.5 pts.

 

So, in your experience, it's heen overly effective.

In mine, underperformance.

 

(oh... and it's utterly worthless if you get KO'd inside a turn).

 

My fighting style favors shrewdness over brute force. As much as you'd like to concentrate firepower on one target, the enemies aren't going to nicely cooperate. REC matters.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Again, depends on SPD, the position of other teammates, etc.. Don't forget if a comrade falls on either side, someone's also going to take time (sometimes) to get him up.

[/Quote]

 

It's possible, I suppose... but usually STUN goes like this:

-Fine

-Stunned

-ouchie

 

So even having one phase in which you really would like to be somewhere else is uncommon.

 

But just in reference to either side needing to take a recovery when they're winning or holding their own and have an opportunity to do so. Then again, never mind, if your battles typically don't last more than a turn, it's sort of irrelevant at that point.

[/Quote]

 

Yeah...

 

How do they have time to do all this? How do they know either who will fold or who is toughest until a few phases (let alone segs) have passed?

[/Quote]

 

They're not necessarily RIGHT, they're just usually in harmony. Everyone sees/hears the same descriptions...

 

Also, one thing I don't get - if you have fewer villains (common for a big battle), and they knock out a character, do they take the time to put that guy down further while 4 or 5 remaining PCs are bearing down on them (or him)? [/Quote]

 

While gloating evilly. It's a good time for a PRE attack.

Unless they put them straight into -20 or more. Then they just laugh and attack someone else.

 

Another question - do you not have much maneuvering around? A big part of the tactics are blocking line of sight and preventing people from getting shots. Similarly, there's the role of non-combatants and environmental damage and the non-punitive goals (such as grabbing something) of (usually) the villains.

 

There's plenty of maneuvering. It's just that you can move pretty far with a half move.

 

As for other goals... in those cases, recoveries are even worse. While you're taking a breather, they're getting away...

[Kristopher]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

It's possible, I suppose... but usually STUN goes like this:

-Fine

-Stunned

-ouchie

 

Are you saying that characters are typically in trouble after the first hit, or am I misreading you?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Are you saying that characters are typically in trouble after the first hit' date=' or am I misreading you?[/quote']

 

It's more of the "one-two punch" issue. It's so effective to double up.

Now, if low DEF guy get hit by high DC guy... ouch.

[zornwil]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

WW - the whole team doesn't evac, usually 1 or possibly 2 members will regroup.

[Gary]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

When I mentioned package deals' date=' I meant how they used to be (which was fair).[/quote']

 

They used to save 3 pts at most. Still no big deal.

 

EC's may have "strict" requirements, but "buy these powers ONLY" is a trifle stricter. STR and CON give the discount to figured CHA's, that's it, full stop, end of story.

 

As for OCV and DCV... there's a ton of workarounds. Sense Affecting powers, Area Effects, Range (range is a good one...), ECV...

 

Skill levels being inefficient compared to DEX is fine. They're inefficient compared to everything else in the game too.

 

OCV and DCV are things that virtually all characters need anyway. It's a direct increase in the character's power. Not to mention bonuses to things like Breakfall, Acrobatics, or Dive for Cover. It's not the same thing as saving 3 pts in a package because you buy lots of background skills. 6 pts gives a lot more than 6 pts worth of benefits.

 

 

It's limited to Automaton's, yes. But since they are otherwise built using the normal character construction rules, this doesn't matter. The absolute value of being stunnable is 15 for infinity.

 

If you can show me any official product that has this power for a non-automaton, then I'll agree. If you can't, then I'm going to say that you're dead wrong.

 

 

5 is the absolute _most_ I'd accept as a value. It is far less useful than the equivalent PD/ED/MentalD... even beyond -2 limitation less useful.

 

Wrong. 10 pts of con protects against 10 pts of stunning damage from any source, whether physical, energy, mental, drains, etc. 5 pts of PD gives only 5 pts of protection against only physical attacks, and not even physical killing attacks. 5 pts would only provide 3.3 pts of resistance vs stunning vs physical killing attacks.

 

Why don't you try fighting your next battle with a 10 Con? Take any superheroic character and sell back his Con (but leave his figureds the same) at a 1:2 rate. A 30 Con character will have a 10 Con, but have 10 pts more to spend. I bet he won't last long in any sort of combat.

 

 

The vast majority of characters aren't built with the "extra" bits necessary for DC's to fit them. It's a niche ability, suitable only for characters based around Martial Arts who have chosen DCV as their main defense.

 

That does not make it overpriced. THat makes it a "wasted" purchase for other types of characters. As a comparison, Superleap is fairly priced power... but bought straight, on a character who already has more inches in another movement power, it will not be very useful. Despite being a _great_ power for some types of characters, it is "inefficient" for that build

 

 

The better analogy would be purchasing skill levels vs Dex. You can argue that a few conceptions might want the CSLs, but the vast majority of cases, Dex is better.

 

 

In general, sure. But this is a problem? Being strong is the most common way of doing more HtoH damage.

 

Whether this is a problem is irrelevant. The discussion is whether DCs are inefficient compared to Str.

[Gary]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

It's not. It's pointing out that just because something is bad in ONE CIRCUMSTANCE (or many) does not make it useless. Just because DC's are inefficient for characters with brick type _durability_' date=' doesn't mean they're inefficient in all cases.[/quote']

 

Compared to Str they're inefficient in the vast majority of cases.

 

 

Saying "he can buy an equivalent in his Multipower" does not make the Martial Arts damage boost useless, because if both characters are identical apart from the STR vs DC issue (which has to be the point, since otherwise you are NOT arguing the STR vs DC issue, bot something else), "I can have an even bigger attack through my multipower" is what the MA gets.

 

You still haven't addressed my point.

 

 

Crush does extra damage anyway.

And for a brick, STR should be what they buy (although I can only think of one "Classic" brick [Hulk] who leaps, the rest go with Flight).

 

Crush does no damage in the initial grab. It takes the second phase of grabbing. And it costs 4 pts. Higher Str does do more damage in its initial grab, and doesn't cost the extra 4 pts. Plenty of Champions bricks depend on leap.

 

 

No. Howabout you show me, and I'll prove my point...

 

Just do a search. It should be easy. And I'm not talking about a character specifically optimized to deal with mine. It should be a MA that's able to function in a normal campaign.

 

 

Not really. They can still pick up objects and use them (at least if they take Weapon Element: Club for 1pt...), and the CV effects should be about the same.

 

And even for a brick, the range on a large thrown object is pretty pitiful. Odds are, anyone who can use the "flying sniper" tactic will be able to stay out of range.

 

They can't use large objects like cars and trees. So I reject your contention that CV effects are the same.

 

The brick is starting with a DCV 3 target. That should help long distance shots immensely.

 

 

There are rules for picking up a table and throwing it.

There are also rules for what happens when someone picks up a LAW rocket and fires it.

 

The rules do NOT say that there will be large objects lying around for bricks to throw.

 

There are a lot more large objects lying around than LAW rockets. Do you disagree with that?

 

 

Not really, 'cause they still are SOL in all but the rarest (or stupidest) cases.

 

No. The flyer still has to get reasonably close or range penalties mean that they can't hit. The MA is SOL while the brick has options.

 

 

 

Saying it over and over again doesn't make it so.

 

Saying it over and over again doesn't make it so.

 

 

 

It's only "inefficient" if the MA is trying to be "a brick with low STR". If the character is built so that they will get hit frequently enough for defenses to be a good buy (as in, _earn their point expenditure_), then it's a poor design.

 

A MA, built AS AN MA, not as some half assed brick-MA hybrid, can be well off with DC's.

 

You're assuming that the MA will have a Dex/Spd advantage over the brick. That's not the case and I wish you'd stop pretending otherwise.

 

 

Without a decent CON and defenses (which the Brick should buy, but the MA doesn't need to), it doesn't matter how much STUN you have, it will ablate away in, at most, an extra phase or two.

 

This is hilarious. You're the one saying that 2-3 hits will wipe out most combatants, and you're discounting 1-2 extra phases?

 

 

For, say, 40 STR, that's an extra 8 PD. That _can_ make a differance, but it won't for most Martial Artist designs. As for the extra Stun, like I said, it will ablate away easily.

 

8 PD plus 20 Stun. Quite a bit of difference. 1-2 extra phases when most combatants only last 2-3 hits is huge.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

They used to save 3 pts at most. Still no big deal.

[/Quote]

 

It's the principle of the thing.

 

OCV and DCV are things that virtually all characters need anyway. It's a direct increase in the character's power. Not to mention bonuses to things like Breakfall, Acrobatics, or Dive for Cover. It's not the same thing as saving 3 pts in a package because you buy lots of background skills. 6 pts gives a lot more than 6 pts worth of benefits.

[/Quote]

 

Really? You say this at the same time as insisting that bricks can always attack vs DCV 3?

 

If you can show me any official product that has this power for a non-automaton, then I'll agree. If you can't, then I'm going to say that you're dead wrong.

[/Quote]

 

Not in 5th edition (I don't know the new characters, really), but Warrior in The Mutant File had it. (with Costs Endurance iirc).

 

Wrong. 10 pts of con protects against 10 pts of stunning damage from any source, whether physical, energy, mental, drains, etc. 5 pts of PD gives only 5 pts of protection against only physical attacks, and not even physical killing attacks. 5 pts would only provide 3.3 pts of resistance vs stunning vs physical killing attacks.

[/Quote]

 

Er, no. PD goes vs the stun of Killing Attacks. And drains can't stun you.

 

Why don't you try fighting your next battle with a 10 Con? Take any superheroic character and sell back his Con (but leave his figureds the same) at a 1:2 rate. A 30 Con character will have a 10 Con, but have 10 pts more to spend. I bet he won't last long in any sort of combat.

[/Quote]

 

Sure. I'll do it with a MA.

 

 

The better analogy would be purchasing skill levels vs Dex. You can argue that a few conceptions might want the CSLs, but the vast majority of cases, Dex is better.

 

 

Whether this is a problem is irrelevant. The discussion is whether DCs are inefficient compared to Str.

 

And the answer is "not if you are playing the right type of character".

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Just do a search. It should be easy. And I'm not talking about a character specifically optimized to deal with mine. It should be a MA that's able to function in a normal campaign.

 

Alright. Lariat locked on to... you talk about her a lot btw.

 

15 Str 5

30 Dex 60

15 Con 10

10 Body 0

18 Int 8

14 Ego 8

15 Pre 5

20 Com 5

8 PD 5

8 ED 5

6 SPD 20

6 Rec 0

30 End 0

26 Stun 0

===

131

 

3 See through the Eyes of the Night: IR Vision, Linked to Darkness

24 Shadow Powers Elemental Control, Only in Hero Identity

a16 Shade: 3"r Darkness to Sight and Hearing, 0 Endurance Cost, No Range

b24 Shadow Form: Desolidification, 0 Endurance Cost

c24 Shield of the Night: 20/20 Force Field, 0 Endurance Cost

d24 Walk the Night: 20" Flight, 0 Endurance Cost

 

Martial arts

27 Martial Strike, Martial Grab, Martial Throw, Choke Hold, Killing Strike, Nerve Pinch, Poke

40 +10 Damage Classes

6 2 levels with MA

 

3 Acrobatics

3 Breakfall

 

10 Very Wealthy

3 PS CEO 13-

3 PS Fashion Design 13-

3 KS Business World 13-

3 KS Textiles 13-

3 Bureaucratics 12-

===

105 (skills)

 

Edit: Knew I forgot something.

[Kristopher]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

I'd probably never allow a 6 SPD, 11 CVs, 13+ DCs, 28 DEF starting player character in a game, and both of the GMs whose Champs games I've played in would agree.

 

7d6 NNDs? An average of 25 STUN through to most characters? Of course, the 15d6 Martial Strike does about the same to most characters...

 

The only thing that might change my mind about allowing that character in to a game is the rediculous ease with which she can be CON Stunned, and the ease with which she can be put completely out of a fight. 26 STUN and 6 REC = "nap time".

 

PS: "Poke"?

[Mentor]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

You didn't answer the question. Would you be ok if Cosmic VPPs had their control costs halved?

Not that I see the relevance to this discussion, but no I would not be OK if Cosmic VPP had their control costs halved. Versatility and unpredictability are some of the most valuable commodities in the system. On the other hand they are also impossible to quantofy by any measure, so if you don't trust the GM to fairly adjudicate events anyway, no balance can be achieved.

[Gary]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Alright. Lariat locked on to... you talk about her a lot btw.

 

15 Str 5

30 Dex 60

15 Con 10

10 Body 0

18 Int 8

14 Ego 8

15 Pre 5

20 Com 5

8 PD 5

8 ED 5

6 SPD 20

6 Rec 0

30 End 0

26 Stun 0

===

131

 

3 See through the Eyes of the Night: IR Vision, Linked to Darkness

24 Shadow Powers Elemental Control, Only in Hero Identity

a16 Shade: 3"r Darkness to Sight and Hearing, 0 Endurance Cost, No Range

b24 Shadow Form: Desolidification, 0 Endurance Cost

c24 Shield of the Night: 20/20 Force Field, 0 Endurance Cost

d24 Walk the Night: 20" Flight, 0 Endurance Cost

 

Martial arts

27 Martial Strike, Martial Grab, Martial Throw, Choke Hold, Killing Strike, Nerve Pinch, Poke

40 +10 Damage Classes

6 2 levels with MA

 

3 Acrobatics

3 Breakfall

 

10 Very Wealthy

3 PS CEO 13-

3 PS Fashion Design 13-

3 KS Business World 13-

3 KS Textiles 13-

3 Bureaucratics 12-

===

105 (skills)

 

Edit: Knew I forgot something.

 

 

I can agree that this is a viable character and fairly tough. However, I think Lariat is far superior.

 

1) You have OIHID for the EC, saving about 30 or so pts. Since Lariat doesn't have this, if we compare Apples to Apples, you would have to remove this limitation and shave 30 or so combat pts. Otherwise I could put OIHID and shave lots of points off Lariat.

 

2) Damage is respectable, with 15d6 attacks, 7d6 NND, 14d6 flash, and 3d6+1 HKA.

 

3) Con is incredibly low. A simple 5d6 ego blast or stun drain will leave this dude Stunned. 28 Def and 15 Con means that the normal 12d6 attack has an excellent chance of Stunning him, and a 14d6 is a virtual lock.

 

4) Very low Stun total. Very easy to whittle down even with area effect attacks.

 

5) In a head to head duel, your MA has to keep the desolid on at all times or else. It takes 3 hits from your MA to put down Lariat, but only 1 hit to Stun your MA in reverse. The very first time your character attacks, she'll be vulnerable to a counterattack from Lariat that she simply can't take.

 

6) Even if your MA (please give a name) manages to whittle Lariat down significantly, Lariat is faster and can simply leap away and use her superior recovery to get the Stun back. Since your MA will be Stunned on average from a single hit, the reverse isn't true even though your MA has flight.

[Mentor]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

I made a character with 60 Str' date=' 33 Con, 30 Dex, 6 Spd, 32/32 Defenses, martial arts, and a nifty EC for about 320 combat points (about 30 noncombat) without making any attempt at cheese. If I wanted to, I could've added OIHID and removed a few skills and had essentially the same character on 250.[/quote']

Great. If you and your fellow players and the GM are all having fun interracting with various challenges involving the powers and personalities of the characters, then by all means go for it. You might have a viable character if he/she is a true superhero.

 

If, however, the player is on some sort of ego trip to demonstrate intellectual and rules matching superiority to the GM and other players involved by constructing a mathematical action hog and damage machine, then the entire exercise is a wasted and futile effort. The player of that character can claim system superiority while the game moves on without him. There are two such gamers in our gaming circle of acquaintence of a couple dozen individuals whom we have pointedly not invited to participate for just such an attitude.

[Gary]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

It's the principle of the thing.

 

It was meant previously so that people had some incentive to purchase KS Calligraphy or KS Boxing. Stuff that didn't directly increase your combat power.

 

 

Really? You say this at the same time as insisting that bricks can always attack vs DCV 3?

 

Did I say always? I said when the opportunity and need arises.

 

 

Not in 5th edition (I don't know the new characters, really), but Warrior in The Mutant File had it. (with Costs Endurance iirc).

 

 

5th edition has cracked down on many such abuses. Somehow I don't think any reasonable GM would allow such a powerful ability for a PC for only 15 pts.

 

 

 

Er, no. PD goes vs the stun of Killing Attacks. And drains can't stun you.

 

Stun drains can most certainly stun you.

 

I was pointing out the ridiculousness of your idea that 10 pts of resistance vs Stunning was worth only 5 pts. 5 pts only buys 5 PD nonresistant, or 3.3 PD resistant. Thus the Con gives you 10 pts of Stunning protection from any source, while the PD gives 5 pts of Stunning protection from a single source.

 

 

Sure. I'll do it with a MA.

 

 

The 10 Con MA is going to be rather hosed by virtually any hit, whether it's a Ego Blast, Stun Drain, Area Effect or Explosion, or a Spread EB.

 

 

 

And the answer is "not if you are playing the right type of character".

 

 

For the vast majority it is.

[Gary]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Not that I see the relevance to this discussion' date=' but no I would not be OK if Cosmic VPP had their control costs halved. Versatility and unpredictability are some of the most valuable commodities in the system. On the other hand they are also impossible to quantofy by any measure, so if you don't trust the GM to fairly adjudicate events anyway, no balance can be achieved.[/quote']

 

 

And the reason you would not be OK with Cosmic VPPs with half control costs would be because you think it gives too much benefit for the points costs right?

 

That's how I feel with Str vs DCs.

[Gary]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Great. If you and your fellow players and the GM are all having fun interracting with various challenges involving the powers and personalities of the characters, then by all means go for it. You might have a viable character if he/she is a true superhero.

 

If, however, the player is on some sort of ego trip to demonstrate intellectual and rules matching superiority to the GM and other players involved by constructing a mathematical action hog and damage machine, then the entire exercise is a wasted and futile effort. The player of that character can claim system superiority while the game moves on without him. There are two such gamers in our gaming circle of acquaintence of a couple dozen individuals whom we have pointedly not invited to participate for just such an attitude.

 

 

I was responding to your claim that it wasn't possible on 250.

 

Any campaign needs GM control obviously. I was merely pointing out that it's fairly easy to create monstrously powerful characters without using any cheese because some costs in the system don't match the utility of what you receive.

[Mentor]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

And the reason you would not be OK with Cosmic VPPs with half control costs would be because you think it gives too much benefit for the points costs right?

 

That's how I feel with Str vs DCs.

Fair enough. We do agree on the balance principle.

 

My point remains that there are so many variables in which the role playing aspects make the combat results impossible to comletely quantify thus automatically write off as unbalanced or broken. To put it another way, if I am willing, effective, and satisfied to play a Martial Artist as populary imagined, despite possible lesser efficiencies relative to STR, why does that still mean the rule or concept is broken?

[Mentor]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

I was responding to your claim that it wasn't possible on 250.

 

Any campaign needs GM control obviously. I was merely pointing out that it's fairly easy to create monstrously powerful characters without using any cheese because some costs in the system don't match the utility of what you receive.

Maybe this is the reason for my confusion.

 

That's exactly my point. It takes GM intervention to equalize bricks and MAs. The rules as written give a huge edge to bricks over MAs' date=' all other things being equal.[/quote']

 

I interpreted the previous post, perhaps incorrectly, to mean that you wished or expected all PCs to be either equally damaging or predictable based on the statistical write up in the outcome of their combat, independent of any scenario GM as if an arena combat were always in operation. Please clarify the difference for me.

[Gary]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Fair enough. We do agree on the balance principle.

 

My point remains that there are so many variables in which the role playing aspects make the combat results impossible to comletely quantify thus automatically write off as unbalanced or broken. To put it another way, if I am willing, effective, and satisfied to play a Martial Artist as populary imagined, despite possible lesser efficiencies relative to STR, why does that still mean the rule or concept is broken?

 

 

If people are happy with the game as is, there is no problem.

 

However, would you be willing to play that MA if someone else builds a Brick for the same points but is significantly more effective? Or is your willingness to play the MA simply due to the GM squashing any Brick concepts that would overshadow your MA?