Kristopher Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists So? Superman is a brick, and he's strong, fast, and agile. Brick to me implies high strength, nothing more and nothing less. It implies quite a bit more to the rest of us, or at least some of the rest of us. It implies an approach to combat vased on strength and durability, as opposed to finese, IMO. Superman isn't a brick, IMO. He defies catagorization into any single archetype. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists I wouldn't call Superman a brick, either, these days. He's a flying speedster brick. Otherwise, any brick who knows martial arts could instead be called a martial artist, and every energy blaster that has gadgets too is a gadgeteer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists So? Superman is a brick, and he's strong, fast, and agile. Brick to me implies high strength, nothing more and nothing less. The archetypical brick is not normally fast and agile, at least as I understand it. To me the archetypical brick is Thing or Hulk. Not Superman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists Brick does not equal slow and clumsy in my book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists Brick does not equal slow and clumsy in my book. No one said it had to. Taking a scale all the way from normals to the top end of supers, bricks don't have to be slow and clumsy. But they're typically not towards the top of the scale on agility, quickness, and speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists Brick does not equal slow and clumsy in my book. The Thing and Hulk are "slow and clumsy"????? I thnk not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists No one said it had to. Taking a scale all the way from normals to the top end of supers, bricks don't have to be slow and clumsy. But they're typically not towards the top of the scale on agility, quickness, and speed. But there's nothing saying that they can't be either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists The Thing and Hulk are "slow and clumsy"????? I thnk not. A Spiderman or Timberwolf like brick is just as valid as a Thing or Hulk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists But there's nothing saying that they can't be either. Someone who is at the top of the scale in STR, SPD, DEX, and DEF has transcended the brick archetype (and the speedster archetype, and any other archetype) IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists Someone who is at the top of the scale in STR' date=' SPD, DEX, and DEF has transcended the brick archetype (and the speedster archetype, and any other archetype) IMO.[/quote'] Why? The only difference between the brick and a MA who has the same dex/spd and does the same damage is that the brick has more extra points to play with because he's spending his points more efficiently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists Why? The only difference between the brick and a MA who has the same dex/spd and does the same damage is that the brick has more extra points to play with because he's spending his points more efficiently. A Brick and a Martial Artist with the same DEX, SPD, and DCs would usually indicate that one / both of them is/are actually out of archetype. And even if they're not, the Martial Artist is typically more versatile while the Brick is typically more capable at oh, say, lifting stuff off of trapped civilians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists A Brick and a Martial Artist with the same DEX' date=' SPD, and DCs would usually indicate that one / both of them is/are actually out of archetype. And even if they're not, the Martial Artist is typically more versatile while the Brick is typically more capable at oh, say, lifting stuff off of trapped civilians.[/quote'] I think you're too locked into archetypes. There are many characters who mix archetypes, and they're just as valid as "pure" archetypes. Just because a character is strong doesn't imply that he has to be at the lower end of the dex/spd scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists I think you're too locked into archetypes. There are many characters who mix archetypes, and they're just as valid as "pure" archetypes. Just because a character is strong doesn't imply that he has to be at the lower end of the dex/spd scale. Again, I didn't say they had to be. I said that they're not at the the high end. Most scales have a middle somewhere in there between the high end and the low end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists The Thing and Hulk are "slow and clumsy"????? I thnk not. They've both been portrayed as being unnervingly fast for their bulk in comics I've read. I certainly get tired of hearing people talk about superhero "classes" when talking about Champions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists Again' date=' I didn't say they had to be. I said that they're not at the the high end. Most scales have a middle somewhere in there between the high end and the low end.[/quote'] Except for speedsters, a Timber Wolf or Spiderman clone should be at the high end of dex/spd. That is part of the concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists Except for speedsters, a Timber Wolf or Spiderman clone should be at the high end of dex/spd. That is part of the concept. Fine. But that doesn't make them bricks, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists Fine. But that doesn't make them bricks, IMO. Timber Wolf isn't a brick? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted November 1, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists Re: Timberwolf: Yes he is strong, yes he is fast & Agile HOWEVER look at the team he is on and compare his str/speed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists So? Superman is a brick, and he's strong, fast, and agile. Brick to me implies high strength, nothing more and nothing less. Exactly. Spiderman clones are thus not 'bricks' but 'brick+somethings'. Because being a "brick. full stop" means that you are nothing BUT strong and invulnerable. Does this help reduce the conflict? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists Exactly. Spiderman clones are thus not 'bricks' but 'brick+somethings'. Because being a "brick. full stop" means that you are nothing BUT strong and invulnerable. Does this help reduce the conflict? Pretty much my take, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists Re: Timberwolf: Yes he is strong, yes he is fast & Agile HOWEVER look at the team he is on and compare his str/speed I haven't read the Legion in a while. In Pre-Crisis, he was scary strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists Exactly. Spiderman clones are thus not 'bricks' but 'brick+somethings'. Because being a "brick. full stop" means that you are nothing BUT strong and invulnerable. Does this help reduce the conflict? Spiderman is an excellent character to look at to make people realize how much nonsense talking about Speedsters, Bricks, and the like really is. Spiderman is a character, that without cultural reference, a lot of GMs who buy into this archetype/class crap would say no to. He's super-strong, super-agile, pretty fast, has extra-sensory capabilities, a very versatile web generation power, and he possesses a very high intelligence, capable of producing super-technology. He's not "balanced" by archetype . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists Spidey isn't, IMO, a brick. Most respectable adaptations place him at about 40 STR, which falls just shy of brick territory. He's not quite as strong as a brick, not quite as fast (SPD-wise) as a full-out speedster, insanely agile, and has good versatility. I'd allow that kind of character in a game I was running, no problem. What I wouldn't allow in a 350-pt standard-type game is a character with 60+ STR, 6+ SPD, 30+ PD/ED, etc, etc, etc -- unless there was something very, very compelling about the character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists Spiderman is an excellent character to look at to make people realize how much nonsense talking about Speedsters, Bricks, and the like really is. Spiderman is a character, that without cultural reference, a lot of GMs who buy into this archetype/class crap would say no to. He's super-strong, super-agile, pretty fast, has extra-sensory capabilities, a very versatile web generation power, and he possesses a very high intelligence, capable of producing super-technology. He's not "balanced" by archetype . He doesn't have the DEF of a full brick, and apart from being quick, he's not exactly the greateast at any one aspect. He's the generalist "archetype". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists Spidey isn't, IMO, a brick. Most respectable adaptations place him at about 40 STR, which falls just shy of brick territory. He's not quite as strong as a brick, not quite as fast (SPD-wise) as a full-out speedster, insanely agile, and has good versatility. I'd allow that kind of character in a game I was running, no problem. What I wouldn't allow in a 350-pt standard-type game is a character with 60+ STR, 6+ SPD, 30+ PD/ED, etc, etc, etc -- unless there was something very, very compelling about the character. Didn't say Spidey was a brick. I'm tired of hearing people talk about super-heroes as if they were in a class. Most supers don't fit an archetype. Thor, for example, can do so many things that he can't be classified as one thing or another. He's very strong, very durable, a weapon's master, a wrestler, an elemental, an extra-dimensional traveler, has extra-sensory capabilities, and other stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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