Fixing Martial Artists

[Gary]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Maybe this is the reason for my confusion.

 

 

 

I interpreted the previous post, perhaps incorrectly, to mean that you wished or expected all PCs to be either equally damaging or predictable based on the statistical write up in the outcome of their combat, independent of any scenario GM as if an arena combat were always in operation. Please clarify the difference for me.

 

 

My meaning is that a point spent on one ability should be worth roughly the same as a point spent in another ability of the same type. IOW, you should get roughly what you pay for.

 

For example, if EB was 5 pts per 1d6 and Killing Attacks were 5 pts per 1d6, I would very strongly object because 1d6 RKA is far deadlier than 1d6 EB. You're getting far more than you paid for with the ultra cheap RKA. I feel there is a similar difference between Str and DCs (obviously to a much lesser extent than the RKA EB comparison of course). You're getting significantly more benefit from one than the other for similar costs.

[Savinien]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

I'm with RDU Neil in this.

 

In the RCU (the campaign I play/GM in), normal humans cannot (should) not buy more than 2 DCs for their MA. It just doesn't make sense. Batman cannot punch Darkseid and hurt him.

 

Totally with RDU Neil. Good show!

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

I can agree that this is a viable character and fairly tough. However, I think Lariat is far superior.

 

1) You have OIHID for the EC, saving about 30 or so pts. Since Lariat doesn't have this, if we compare Apples to Apples, you would have to remove this limitation and shave 30 or so combat pts. Otherwise I could put OIHID and shave lots of points off Lariat.

[/Quote]

 

I was getting tired. (Which is why... call him Shade... is such a lazy man's character). I could tweak him to not be OIHID if I wanted to waste another hour or so.

 

2) Damage is respectable, with 15d6 attacks, 7d6 NND, 14d6 flash, and 3d6+1 HKA.

 

3) Con is incredibly low. A simple 5d6 ego blast or stun drain will leave this dude Stunned. 28 Def and 15 Con means that the normal 12d6 attack has an excellent chance of Stunning him, and a 14d6 is a virtual lock.

[/Quote]

 

Of course. Intentional. The FF is there vs AE attacks and Explosion almost exclusively. (He should be able to see through that darkness... doh - had I not screwed that up (which I CAN fix easily), he'd hardly ever be hit, since OCV get's reduced to iirc _0_ at range, and he'd hit easily, vs 1/2 DCV).

(And the Ego attack requires an additional targeting sense)

 

4) Very low Stun total. Very easy to whittle down even with area effect attacks.

 

5) In a head to head duel, your MA has to keep the desolid on at all times or else. It takes 3 hits from your MA to put down Lariat, but only 1 hit to Stun your MA in reverse. The very first time your character attacks, she'll be vulnerable to a counterattack from Lariat that she simply can't take.

 

6) Even if your MA (please give a name) manages to whittle Lariat down significantly, Lariat is faster and can simply leap away and use her superior recovery to get the Stun back. Since your MA will be Stunned on average from a single hit, the reverse isn't true even though your MA has flight.

 

Well, both of them just standing there while he kicks back and relaxes feels like a draw to me.

 

That said, he needs some work. (It was late, I was tired, and I was watching TV at the same time. ) But the general principle stands; if the character isn't designed to soak damage, but to evade it, then the ability to soak damage won't help that much.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

It was meant previously so that people had some incentive to purchase KS Calligraphy or KS Boxing. Stuff that didn't directly increase your combat power.

 

Did I say always? I said when the opportunity and need arises.

[/Quote]

 

 

 

5th edition has cracked down on many such abuses. Somehow I don't think any reasonable GM would allow such a powerful ability for a PC for only 15 pts.

[/Quote]

 

. The last brick I played _had_ this ability.

 

In any event, Automatons can buy "just" that power, and otherwise interact exactly the same as a normal PCtype character with damage based powers, and I really don't hear the horror at the idea...

 

Stun drains can most certainly stun you.

 

I was pointing out the ridiculousness of your idea that 10 pts of resistance vs Stunning was worth only 5 pts. 5 pts only buys 5 PD nonresistant, or 3.3 PD resistant. Thus the Con gives you 10 pts of Stunning protection from any source, while the PD gives 5 pts of Stunning protection from a single source.

[/Quote]

 

Dude, the PD prevents you from being KO'd and taking BODY damage too. Even better, the PD stops you from being Stunned by coordinated attacks too.

 

 

The 10 Con MA is going to be rather hosed by virtually any hit, whether it's a Ego Blast, Stun Drain, Area Effect or Explosion, or a Spread EB.

[/Quote]

 

Getting hit will happen a lot?

 

 

For the vast majority it is.

 

My work is done. Gary has shifted his opinion.

 

Martial DC's are for Martial Artists. STR is for everyone else. That's what they were designed as.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

I'd probably never allow a 6 SPD, 11 CVs, 13+ DCs, 28 DEF starting player character in a game, and both of the GMs whose Champs games I've played in would agree.

 

7d6 NNDs? An average of 25 STUN through to most characters? Of course, the 15d6 Martial Strike does about the same to most characters...

 

The only thing that might change my mind about allowing that character in to a game is the rediculous ease with which she can be CON Stunned, and the ease with which she can be put completely out of a fight. 26 STUN and 6 REC = "nap time".

 

PS: "Poke"?

 

Lariat was built to a similiar scale. Any lesser capabilities would have conceded the battle right off the bat.

 

Poke was the flash maneuver, I couldn't remember the name.

[Gary]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

I was getting tired. (Which is why... call him Shade... is such a lazy man's character). I could tweak him to not be OIHID if I wanted to waste another hour or so.

 

 

 

Of course. Intentional. The FF is there vs AE attacks and Explosion almost exclusively. (He should be able to see through that darkness... doh - had I not screwed that up (which I CAN fix easily), he'd hardly ever be hit, since OCV get's reduced to iirc _0_ at range, and he'd hit easily, vs 1/2 DCV).

(And the Ego attack requires an additional targeting sense)

 

 

That's why people invented Spatial Awareness, touch sense group.

 

 

Well, both of them just standing there while he kicks back and relaxes feels like a draw to me.

 

That said, he needs some work. (It was late, I was tired, and I was watching TV at the same time. ) But the general principle stands; if the character isn't designed to soak damage, but to evade it, then the ability to soak damage won't help that much.

 

 

Or Lariat can use the extra 30+ pts from adding OIHID to upgrade her emergency power to the +1/2 Variable Advantage (+.75 total since it'll be limited to 4 Advantages) and to buy off some of the increased End cost...

[Gary]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

. The last brick I played _had_ this ability.

 

In any event, Automatons can buy "just" that power, and otherwise interact exactly the same as a normal PCtype character with damage based powers, and I really don't hear the horror at the idea...

 

 

In every game I've played, no PC had that ability. And Automatons aren't generally allowed to be PCs.

 

 

Dude, the PD prevents you from being KO'd and taking BODY damage too. Even better, the PD stops you from being Stunned by coordinated attacks too.

 

Let's take your average 10 Con 8 PD/8 ED dude. If you're saying that 10 pts of Con only for resisting Stunning is worth only 5 pts, then you have the choice of 20 Con 8 PD/8 ED or 10 Con 13 PD/ 8 ED.

 

The first guy has +10 Stunning Resistance from Physical, Energy, Ego Blasts, Stun Drains, NNDs, AVLDs, or any other means of taking Stun such as if you run out of End to burn Stun.

 

The 2nd guy only has +5 defense vs Physical. It's worthless vs Energy, Ego Blasts, Stun Drains, NNDs, AVLDs, or any other means of taking Stun. Even in its specialty, it's only half as effective as the first dude in resisting Stun results.

 

 

 

Getting hit will happen a lot?

 

Yep. If your character gets too annoying, then opponents start using tactics and teamwork to make sure your character gets hit. Even if it's something simple like Spreading your EB to make sure you hit that DCV or tossing a few grenades. Getting hit happens often enough for almost anyone that having a 10 Con is suicidal.

 

 

My work is done. Gary has shifted his opinion.

 

Martial DC's are for Martial Artists. STR is for everyone else. That's what they were designed as.

 

Martial DCs were designed for a very narrow subset of Martial Artists who don't fight superheroic opponents (since they usually have the defense to the exotic martial attacks.)

[Mentor]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

If people are happy with the game as is, there is no problem.

 

However, would you be willing to play that MA if someone else builds a Brick for the same points but is significantly more effective? Or is your willingness to play the MA simply due to the GM squashing any Brick concepts that would overshadow your MA?

Yes, so long as it is understood that the GM rulings on PC and campaign balance as well as role playing supremacy over combat supremacy are more important than whether or not the construct is technically legal or not. The requirement is not that the GM squash any Brick concepts based on combat power, only the bogus ones. And yes, that call is basically up to the GM and is a gut rather than quantifiable call.

 

Moreover, as I played the relatively less combat effective Martial Artist who was yet elected team leader and always held up his own end in combat due to imagineative role playing, I wouldn't fear the PC being overshadowed.

 

I repeat, role playing effectiveness trumps combat effectiveness and is by definition cooperative and considerate of the whole team and the whole campaign. I can min/max a Martial Artist completely within the legal confines of the rules with the best of them, but it doesn't make a reasonable or fun character.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

In every game I've played, no PC had that ability. And Automatons aren't generally allowed to be PCs.

[/Quote]

 

Does it matter if two characters are both PC's or not if they are built on the same point standard?

 

PC's are allowed to have Automaton's - do really see this getting horribly broken?

 

Let's take your average 10 Con 8 PD/8 ED dude. If you're saying that 10 pts of Con only for resisting Stunning is worth only 5 pts, then you have the choice of 20 Con 8 PD/8 ED or 10 Con 13 PD/ 8 ED.

 

The first guy has +10 Stunning Resistance from Physical, Energy, Ego Blasts, Stun Drains, NNDs, AVLDs, or any other means of taking Stun such as if you run out of End to burn Stun.

 

The 2nd guy only has +5 defense vs Physical. It's worthless vs Energy, Ego Blasts, Stun Drains, NNDs, AVLDs, or any other means of taking Stun. Even in its specialty, it's only half as effective as the first dude in resisting Stun results.

[/Quote]

 

This is because the PD does a lot of other things. 10pts of PD/ED/MD will not only stop the Stunning, but stop it from wearing them down.

 

It's like comparing 10 STR to 3d6 Hand to Hand attack.

 

Yep. If your character gets too annoying, then opponents start using tactics and teamwork to make sure your character gets hit. Even if it's something simple like Spreading your EB to make sure you hit that DCV or tossing a few grenades. Getting hit happens often enough for almost anyone that having a 10 Con is suicidal.

[/Quote]

 

If your opponents "use tactics and teamwork" to take you down, then I doubt the high CON is going to overcome an equivalent amount of effort devoted to overriding IT.

 

Nothing is unbeatable.

 

Martial DCs were designed for a very narrow subset of Martial Artists who don't fight superheroic opponents (since they usually have the defense to the exotic martial attacks.)

 

Really? I'd rule that most characters I've seen _weren't_ immune to Martial Arts NND's.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

That's why people invented Spatial Awareness, touch sense group.

 

 

 

 

 

Or Lariat can use the extra 30+ pts from adding OIHID to upgrade her emergency power to the +1/2 Variable Advantage (+.75 total since it'll be limited to 4 Advantages) and to buy off some of the increased End cost...

 

It's a work in progress...

 

I think I should have stuck with building Shade as a multipower character. (Or an invisible one)

[RDU Neil]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

I'm with RDU Neil in this.

 

In the RCU (the campaign I play/GM in), normal humans cannot (should) not buy more than 2 DCs for their MA. It just doesn't make sense. Batman cannot punch Darkseid and hurt him.

 

Totally with RDU Neil. Good show!

 

Thank you. Again, it works in my campaign because it helps to reinforce the feel of the campaign as I've developed it. Certain character concepts just don't work for me (and since I'm the GM, they don't get into the game) and the "normal martial artist" who can just "somehow" punch hard enough to crumple tanks is one of those concepts. Bleh.

 

That being said, the "martial artist who has become a ch'i master through training, transcending humanity" hell YEAH! That guy absolutely can justify punching tanks, because his concept is one where he is now using superpowers... not martial arts. Hence they buy Hand Attacks to simulate Energy Fists, or whatever... not Martial Damage Classes. I just need that "real" feel for martial arts (as wild as they can be sometimes) for it to be right for my campaign. This little rule helps support that campaign "feel" really well.

 

As always, YMMV.

[Gary]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Does it matter if two characters are both PC's or not if they are built on the same point standard?

 

PC's are allowed to have Automaton's - do really see this getting horribly broken?

 

 

Yes, 15 pts to Stun proof a character is abusive. Have you seen a campaign that allowed PC Automotans? That can be horribly abusive, and not just for this 15 pt power.

 

 

This is because the PD does a lot of other things. 10pts of PD/ED/MD will not only stop the Stunning, but stop it from wearing them down.

 

It's like comparing 10 STR to 3d6 Hand to Hand attack.

 

We're not comparing 10 pts of PD/ED/MD. We're comparing 5 pts because that's all you're valuing 10 pts of Con to be worth. PD reduces damage from attacks from just physical attacks. Con resists Stunning from all attacks.

 

 

If your opponents "use tactics and teamwork" to take you down, then I doubt the high CON is going to overcome an equivalent amount of effort devoted to overriding IT.

 

Nothing is unbeatable.

 

It's not an "equivalent amount of effort". Someone with a 10 Con is FAR easier to deal with than someone with a 23 Con. It only takes one hit to take the first one out, while it generally takes multiple hits to take the second one out. Con Stunning is a real and lethal danger to those with low Cons. A 10 Con has absolutely no margin of error, while a higher Con does.

 

 

Really? I'd rule that most characters I've seen _weren't_ immune to Martial Arts NND's.

 

PD force fields or Rigid armor works vs most of the common Martial NNDs. And a large number of characters have those.

[Gary]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Yes' date=' so long as it is understood that the GM rulings on PC and campaign balance as well as role playing supremacy over combat supremacy are [b']more important[/b] than whether or not the construct is technically legal or not. The requirement is not that the GM squash any Brick concepts based on combat power, only the bogus ones. And yes, that call is basically up to the GM and is a gut rather than quantifiable call.

 

Moreover, as I played the relatively less combat effective Martial Artist who was yet elected team leader and always held up his own end in combat due to imagineative role playing, I wouldn't fear the PC being overshadowed.

 

I repeat, role playing effectiveness trumps combat effectiveness and is by definition cooperative and considerate of the whole team and the whole campaign. I can min/max a Martial Artist completely within the legal confines of the rules with the best of them, but it doesn't make a reasonable or fun character.

 

 

If you don't mind the martial PC being overshadowed, then why did you automatically reject the fast brick at the beginning of the discussion? And the reason you explicitly gave was so that fast brick wouldn't step on the toes of 3 existing characters.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Yes, 15 pts to Stun proof a character is abusive. Have you seen a campaign that allowed PC Automotans? That can be horribly abusive, and not just for this 15 pt power.

[/Quote]

 

I've seen the "Automaton Powers" allowed on PCs. A PC with no free will is a contradiction in terms, naturally.

 

Automaton's pay the same price for _everything_ else in the game as a PC does. Surely, inevitably, it must be concluded that "Cannot be Stunned" i also worth the same for either.

 

We're not comparing 10 pts of PD/ED/MD. We're comparing 5 pts because that's all you're valuing 10 pts of Con to be worth. PD reduces damage from attacks from just physical attacks. Con resists Stunning from all attacks.

[/Quote]

 

The PD does a heck of a lot more than just resist stunning; THAT is why it costs more. PD "Only to not be stunned" is far, far less useful than normal PD.

(And if you dispute THAT, I'd like to see you double the PD on one of your characters, but have it only apply vs stunning... see how long HE lasts in a fight).

 

It's not an "equivalent amount of effort". Someone with a 10 Con is FAR easier to deal with than someone with a 23 Con. It only takes one hit to take the first one out, while it generally takes multiple hits to take the second one out. Con Stunning is a real and lethal danger to those with low Cons. A 10 Con has absolutely no margin of error, while a higher Con does.

[/Quote]

 

 

 

PD force fields or Rigid armor works vs most of the common Martial NNDs. And a large number of characters have those.

 

I don't recall Force Field being listed as a defense for them...

[Gary]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

I've seen the "Automaton Powers" allowed on PCs. A PC with no free will is a contradiction in terms, naturally.

 

Automaton's pay the same price for _everything_ else in the game as a PC does. Surely, inevitably, it must be concluded that "Cannot be Stunned" i also worth the same for either.

 

 

Automatons also get immunity to most mental powers for free. I don't think you can conclude that "immunity to most mental powers" is worth 0.

 

 

The PD does a heck of a lot more than just resist stunning; THAT is why it costs more. PD "Only to not be stunned" is far, far less useful than normal PD.

(And if you dispute THAT, I'd like to see you double the PD on one of your characters, but have it only apply vs stunning... see how long HE lasts in a fight).

 

What 5 pts of PD does is to reduce the stun from physical attacks. It does nothing vs Energy Blasts, Ego Attacks, Stun Drains, NNDs, AVLDs, etc.

 

10 pts of Con resists every single one of those attacks at the 10 pt level, rather than a single one of them at the 5 pt level.

 

If you ask anyone on these boards whether they would prefer 25 Con and 20 PD or 15 Con and 25 PD (all other things being equal), I betcha the majority of people would prefer the first option.

 

 

I don't recall Force Field being listed as a defense for them...

 

Read UMA page 148.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Automatons also get immunity to most mental powers for free. I don't think you can conclude that "immunity to most mental powers" is worth 0.

[/Quote]

 

No, it's worth 0 pts and your free will.

 

The difference between an Automaton with and without the unstunnable power is 15 points. Nothing else. If you subtract one character sheet from the other, all that will be left is

15 Cannot Be Stunned

 

That is the value of the ability. It's not like you can't have Automaton's without it.

 

Besides, doesn't it say something like "PC's may buy these with GM's permission'" anyway?

 

What 5 pts of PD does is to reduce the stun from physical attacks. It does nothing vs Energy Blasts, Ego Attacks, Stun Drains, NNDs, AVLDs, etc.

 

10 pts of Con resists every single one of those attacks at the 10 pt level, rather than a single one of them at the 5 pt level.

 

If you ask anyone on these boards whether they would prefer 25 Con and 20 PD or 15 Con and 25 PD (all other things being equal), I betcha the majority of people would prefer the first option.

[/Quote]

 

How about 40 CON and 0 PD? Still the preferred option?

 

Read UMA page 148.

[Gary]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

No, it's worth 0 pts and your free will.

 

The difference between an Automaton with and without the unstunnable power is 15 points. Nothing else. If you subtract one character sheet from the other, all that will be left is

15 Cannot Be Stunned

 

That is the value of the ability. It's not like you can't have Automaton's without it.

 

Besides, doesn't it say something like "PC's may buy these with GM's permission'" anyway?

 

 

You need GM permission anyway to become an Automaton. And the powers mentioned are specifically for Automatons, thus invalid when discussing regular PCs.

 

By your logic, since Vehicles automatically get 0 End on their movement powers, 0 End on movement powers is worth 0 pts for a PC.

 

 

 

How about 40 CON and 0 PD? Still the preferred option?

 

No, it's 40 Con and 12 PD, since you're valuing Con as 1/2 pt for the purpose of resisting Stunning. And I'd certainly prefer 40/12 than 15/25 or 0 Con 32 PD.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

You need GM permission anyway to become an Automaton. And the powers mentioned are specifically for Automatons, thus invalid when discussing regular PCs.

 

By your logic, since Vehicles automatically get 0 End on their movement powers, 0 End on movement powers is worth 0 pts for a PC.

[/Quote]

 

So. Why is it _not_ underpriced when bought for an automaton? What about automatons makes this fair?

 

(Vehicles have turn mode tacked on to counterbalance the 0 END, btw)

 

No, it's 40 Con and 12 PD, since you're valuing Con as 1/2 pt for the purpose of resisting Stunning. And I'd certainly prefer 40/12 than 15/25 or 0 Con 32 PD.

 

Fine. 70 CON and 0 PD. Whatever.

 

PD does important things other than provide protection from getting stunned.

 

Of course a power that does nothing other than stopping you from getting stunned will be more effective at stopping you from getting stunned than a more flexible power.

 

PD and ED bought high enough to leave your stunning chances _equal_ will cost more, but will also make it much, much harder to KO you, or to kill you with normal damage. The "cannot be stunned" part of CON has no other benefits, so it is cheaper. If you strip away the other parts of PD/ED/MD/etc then the same will hold true.

[Gary]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

So. Why is it _not_ underpriced when bought for an automaton? What about automatons makes this fair?

 

(Vehicles have turn mode tacked on to counterbalance the 0 END, btw)

 

Automatons have abilities that can easily be abused compared to regular PCs. And by the default rules (we are discussing default rules not house rules right?), they can't be PCs and thus should be outside the area of discussion.

 

On things like flight, it's no different from a regular PC with flight. Both have turn modes, but vehicles have 0 End for free. That does not make 0 End worth 0 pts just because it's free for a vehicle.

 

 

Fine. 70 CON and 0 PD. Whatever.

 

PD does important things other than provide protection from getting stunned.

 

Of course a power that does nothing other than stopping you from getting stunned will be more effective at stopping you from getting stunned than a more flexible power.

 

PD and ED bought high enough to leave your stunning chances _equal_ will cost more, but will also make it much, much harder to KO you, or to kill you with normal damage. The "cannot be stunned" part of CON has no other benefits, so it is cheaper. If you strip away the other parts of PD/ED/MD/etc then the same will hold true.

 

 

You're using ridiculous extremes. I'll ask you why you don't purchase +350 PD for a character if PD is worth 1 pt? It's because you need a balance of powers and characteristics. And under most "normal" levels of characteristics, 10 Con is worth more than 5 PD, or 2 PD, 2 ED, and 1 MD.

 

So let's stick to normal levels and not extreme levels. Which would you prefer, 30 Con 20/20 PD ED, or 10 Con 25 PD/ED? (I'm changing the example numbers slightly because I don't want to work with odd numbers when dealing with a 1/2 cost characteristic).

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Automatons have abilities that can easily be abused compared to regular PCs. And by the default rules (we are discussing default rules not house rules right?), they can't be PCs and thus should be outside the area of discussion.

 

On things like flight, it's no different from a regular PC with flight. Both have turn modes, but vehicles have 0 End for free. That does not make 0 End worth 0 pts just because it's free for a vehicle.

[/Quote]

 

GM's Option =/= house rules. In fact, since technically every single power purchase requires GM permission, GM's Option doesn't actually mean anything.

 

But ignoring that, a PC can have a follower who is an automaton. Or a follower who is not an automaton. So it can matter for PC's. Even under strict 'no GM option' rulings.

 

Is that ability unbalancingly effective? Do all Automaton followers have "Cannot be Stunned"? Do PC's buy that ability en-masse?

Or is it really not a biggie?

 

You're using ridiculous extremes. I'll ask you why you don't purchase +350 PD for a character if PD is worth 1 pt? It's because you need a balance of powers and characteristics. And under most "normal" levels of characteristics, 10 Con is worth more than 5 PD, or 2 PD, 2 ED, and 1 MD.

 

So let's stick to normal levels and not extreme levels. Which would you prefer, 30 Con 20/20 PD ED, or 10 Con 25 PD/ED? (I'm changing the example numbers slightly because I don't want to work with odd numbers when dealing with a 1/2 cost characteristic).

 

Vs anything doing less than 35 STUN, the higher PD/ED. Because guess what? It's going to take longer for that to KO me.

 

Or vs an xd6 attack, where x is (my BODY totalx2)+20, because one will kill me on the spot, and the other won't.

 

PD/ED does things other than stop stunning.

[Gary]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

GM's Option =/= house rules. In fact' date=' since technically every single power purchase requires GM permission, GM's Option doesn't actually mean anything.[/quote']

 

 

If we're going to allow GM option powers, then we really have to stop the discussion here. Otherwise we'll get ridiculous constructs such as 1" Superleap Usable As Attack Megascale. This is a rocket punch that sends you into orbit for about 3 active points. Let's just stick with the default rules.

 

 

But ignoring that, a PC can have a follower who is an automaton. Or a follower who is not an automaton. So it can matter for PC's. Even under strict 'no GM option' rulings.

 

Is that ability unbalancingly effective? Do all Automaton followers have "Cannot be Stunned"? Do PC's buy that ability en-masse?

Or is it really not a biggie?

 

 

Automatons usually buy the takes no stun option. But again, it's irrelevant since this choice isn't available to PCs.

 

 

Vs anything doing less than 35 STUN, the higher PD/ED. Because guess what? It's going to take longer for that to KO me.

 

Or vs an xd6 attack, where x is (my BODY totalx2)+20, because one will kill me on the spot, and the other won't.

 

PD/ED does things other than stop stunning.

 

 

The PD/ED is only better vs physical or energy attacks that do between 21 and 35 pts of Stun. This is 6-10d6 on average. Vs physical or energy attacks that do 36+ pts of Stun (11+d6), the Con is better. Vs 11-30 Stun (3-9d6) Ego Blasts, Stun Drains, NNDs, AVLDs, or other misc Stun attacks, the Con is better.

 

The body is irrelevant, since it's highly unlikely that 40+d6 attacks are going to be thrown around. And if they are, you're in trouble anyway.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

If we're going to allow GM option powers, then we really have to stop the discussion here. Otherwise we'll get ridiculous constructs such as 1" Superleap Usable As Attack Megascale. This is a rocket punch that sends you into orbit for about 3 active points. Let's just stick with the default rules.

 

Automatons usually buy the takes no stun option. But again, it's irrelevant since this choice isn't available to PCs.

[/Quote]

 

It can be purchased by a PC for their follower or summon. Even if the GM rules that it is not okay for the PC themselves.

 

Has this _ever_ been overly effective? Has _anyone_ tried to abuse it?

 

No? Perhaps it's fairly costed then.

 

The PD/ED is only better vs physical or energy attacks that do between 21 and 35 pts of Stun. This is 6-10d6 on average. Vs physical or energy attacks that do 36+ pts of Stun (11+d6), the Con is better. Vs 11-30 Stun (3-9d6) Ego Blasts, Stun Drains, NNDs, AVLDs, or other misc Stun attacks, the Con is better.

 

The body is irrelevant, since it's highly unlikely that 40+d6 attacks are going to be thrown around. And if they are, you're in trouble anyway.

 

Actually, the CON is only better for narrow range of attacks. Because at 51+ STUN damage, both get stunned, but one took 5 more stun total.

 

So. For 0-5d6, no difference. For 6-10d6, PD/ED. For 11-15d6, CON better. For 16d6+, PD/ED better.

 

But even when CON is "better", PD/ED still takes less STUN. So your opponent has to be able to capitalize on the stunnage.

 

Oh, and when you're already stunned, PD/ED is superior. When you're already at 0 DCV, PD/ED superior. When some villain has you helpless, and is trying to kill you with normal damage, PD/ED is superior. When you're in helpless freefall at 40" phase, PD/ED is life-savingly superior...

[Rapier]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Are you guys STILL arguing?

 

Can you just agree to disagree? Obviously everyone has very strong feelings on this matter and this thread has darn near degenerated into

 

"Does so"

"Does not"

"Does so"

ad nauseum.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Are you guys STILL arguing?

 

Can you just agree to disagree? Obviously everyone has very strong feelings on this matter and this thread has darn near degenerated into

 

"Does so"

"Does not"

"Does so"

ad nauseum.

 

I agree that we disagree, to do otherwise would be silly.

 

We're slowly narrowing down the areas of arguable contention. Eventually, we should exhaust both sides of new data. At that point, it's draw. Until then, we might convince each other.

[Gary]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

It can be purchased by a PC for their follower or summon. Even if the GM rules that it is not okay for the PC themselves.

 

Has this _ever_ been overly effective? Has _anyone_ tried to abuse it?

 

No? Perhaps it's fairly costed then.

 

In my campaigns, non-PCs are secondary. The GM squashes any attempt to have abuses such as unstunnable Automatons. Frankly, if a character has a follower who's so powerful that he can have a real major impact on most combats, that's the sign of an abusive build.

 

 

Actually, the CON is only better for narrow range of attacks. Because at 51+ STUN damage, both get stunned, but one took 5 more stun total.

 

So. For 0-5d6, no difference. For 6-10d6, PD/ED. For 11-15d6, CON better. For 16d6+, PD/ED better.

 

But even when CON is "better", PD/ED still takes less STUN. So your opponent has to be able to capitalize on the stunnage.

 

Oh, and when you're already stunned, PD/ED is superior. When you're already at 0 DCV, PD/ED superior. When some villain has you helpless, and is trying to kill you with normal damage, PD/ED is superior. When you're in helpless freefall at 40" phase, PD/ED is life-savingly superior...

 

 

You're forgetting 3-9d6 Ego Blasts, Stun Drains, NNDs, and AVLDs. Since these are very common, that undercuts your point pretty drastically.

 

Also, you're assuming that the 6-10d6 and 16+d6 level benefits for PD/ED are equivalent in value to 11-15d6 benefits for Con. In reality, taking 5 less Stun is far less valuable than the difference between being Stunned and not being Stunned. The value of the 11d6-15d6 range is tremendous.