Fixing Martial Artists

[JmOz]

Many people seem to like to complain about the amount of Body Damage MA can do (especialy to inanimate objects), well I just came up with an idea:

 

All MA Manuvers are considered to have the Reduced Penetration limitation on them.

 

They will still break bones on most, but will have alot less effect on inanimate objects

 

Note: In my game I will be staying with the standard

[Debra Winger]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

That's just MEAN!!

Fixing is permanent!!

 

oh wait..

you meant...

ok...

 

Another slightly more complicated method would be to see if their attack is doing more body than they have PD. If so they take damage if they do not actually DO body to the target (kinda like Move Through and Knockback).

[JMHammer]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

JmOz,

 

That's not too dissimilar than the way I've played it for a long time: Damage classes added from martial maneuvers and martial damage classes do not add to total damage applied to inanimate objects. Inanimate objects being defined as things like walls, floors, TVs, toasters, and blocks of wood. Anything which can "act" against or with a character, such as any other character, robot, automaton, etc. takes full damage. Martial artists who don't want to be subject to this restriction are encouraged to get their added damage from Hand Attack or, when appropriate, increased Strength.

 

John H

[OddHat]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Just to permit high DC Martial Strikes that can't smash bank vaults, I've sometimes used a house rule that extra DC only count against living targets. It works well enough; Batman can have a 15d6 punch (defined as knowing exactly where to strike) but still can't smash a tank. In campaigns where it is meant to be possible for humans to smash tanks, it's not a problem.

[jackalope]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

What's wrong with a martial artist using MA to break open a bank vault? Doesn't a bank vault have like 16 DEF? If a martial artist can do 17+ Body with a strike, more power to 'em.

 

I mean, Iron Fist could take apart a bank vault. So could Chun (something like that), the guy who trained Remo Williams. I can totally see a superheroic martial artist doing that.

 

And if you've got heroic martial artists that can whip out 17+ Body with an attack...well, that's not a problem with the system. That's a problem with the GM.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Just to permit high DC Martial Strikes that can't smash bank vaults' date=' I've sometimes used a house rule that extra DC only count against living targets. It works well enough; Batman can have a 15d6 punch (defined as knowing exactly where to strike) but still can't smash a tank. In campaigns where it is meant to be possible for humans to smash tanks, it's not a problem.[/quote']

This would resemble my solution to the problem, and one I'd use in Heroic Level games. Normally though, in a Champions game, where superheroes abound and ninja can break tanks, I just leave be. Same thing in wild Ninja Hero games, where it should be possible, and maybe even routine, for martial artists to punch holes in walls and kick down trees when they miss.

[OddHat]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

What's wrong with a martial artist using MA to break open a bank vault? Doesn't a bank vault have like 16 DEF? If a martial artist can do 17+ Body with a strike, more power to 'em.

 

I mean, Iron Fist could take apart a bank vault. So could Chun (something like that), the guy who trained Remo Williams. I can totally see a superheroic martial artist doing that.

 

And if you've got heroic martial artists that can whip out 17+ Body with an attack...well, that's not a problem with the system. That's a problem with the GM.

 

So you missed the line in my post saying In campaigns where it is meant to be possible for humans to smash tanks, it's not a problem?

[OddHat]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

This would resemble my solution to the problem' date=' and one I'd use in Heroic Level games. Normally though, in a Champions game, where superheroes abound and ninja can break tanks, I just leave be. Same thing in wild Ninja Hero games, where it should be possible, and maybe even routine, for martial artists to punch holes in walls and kick down trees when they miss.[/quote']

 

Yup. A Wuxia martial artist should be able to pull off amazing effects, including sometimes smashing through stone walls (or mountains in an Anime game).

[Vorsch]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

This is human MA were talking about, not chi wielding superhumans.

[Guest rbezold]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

I like it! That's the way it should go!

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

I've been doing that for over a decade. I established that rule in my Street Hero campaign, to allow for guys who fight as comptently as Daredevil but who can't head-butt car engine blocks into fragments any more than Daredevil does. That preserved the feel of the setting and also made the occasional street-level brick (a Luke Cage sort, for example) real impressive.

[Blue]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Martial artsists is broked? I never noticed. In fact, none of the three I play seem broken.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

I just made the arbitrary limit in my games that you can't buy Martial Damage Classes more than 2. Martial arts, as maneuvers, should never (IMO) do more than 8-10 dice, on a person with basically human stats, even if they are Batman or Shang-Chi. (And 8-10 is being way generous, IMO)

 

Now... if you want a Martial Artist who can do things that are truly superhuman in their style... then you buy Hand Attacks, Energy Punches, Chi-Blasts and other things that are actual "powers" and justify them with the SFX of "Martial training that has broken the boundaries of humanity!" or whatever.

 

Batman and Iron Fist are not the same character. Batman could never hit Superman in any way that Supes would even feel it... Iron Fist could... but Iron Fist has super powers... Batman does not. Batman would never have a 15d6 punch in my games. Never.

 

Yes... this means that certain character concepts, in my world, are limited in their raw power, but that works for what I want. A player can certainly take a low power concept character and have fun with them, as long as they don't have a problem with sometimes being completely unable to directly damage the enemy. Some players love that kind of challenge... so we just talk about it ahead of time. If you want to be the Daredevil type who kicks ass around town... great... but stick to Hell's Kitchen. When you try going after Thanos or a Kree Armada, you aren't going to have much success. At least not in a straight up fight.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

I like the idea, but I'd rather see it done as a physical limitation on the Martial Artist, so as to permit both Batman and Karate Kid without forcing Karate Kid to use odd workarounds, like HA instead of +DC.

[Agent X]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

Martial Artists aren't broken. Superhero Martial Artists often break things they aren't "supposed" to. Of course, the material list should make it reasonably tough for many martial artist builds to break stuff.

 

I think it goes to character concept, not archetype concept. I really get tired of talking about martial artists like they all fit into a "class" or something.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

This is human MA were talking about' date=' not chi wielding superhumans.[/quote']

But... this is the Champions board...

 

 

...sorry

[Pegasus]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

DC Heroes had a similar problem. They came up with an optional rule called genre enforcement* that stated that certain effects could not exceed an amount of damage, no matter what the dice said. DC had open ended dice results, so a kid with a waterpistol could take out Superman if he rolled well enough (as our oft cited cliche went). When genre enforcement was being used normals could not punch through steel or similar. I think the reduced penetration is a quick elegant solution in this vein.

 

 

 

*This is second hand knowledge from a long time ago, so I very well could be mistaken.

[nexus]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

DC Heroes had a similar problem. They came up with an optional rule called genre enforcement* that stated that certain effects could not exceed an amount of damage' date=' no matter what the dice said. DC had open ended dice results, so a kid with a waterpistol could take out Superman if he rolled well enough (as our oft cited cliche went).[/quote']

 

Thread derail: It would be so much fun to see this actually happen in a game. Some little kid shoot Superman with a sucker tip launcher as a prank and thanks to the most improbable series of rolls EVAR cold cocks him on National TV. Just imagine the scrabble and bids on the super villian circuit for that toy gun.

 

Or for the kid.

[Vorsch]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

But... this is the Champions board...

 

 

...sorry

Its not so much MA thats a problem, a normal human with a sledgehammer does about 10d6-12d6 with a haymaker.

 

MA just higlights the problem

 

I mean if the rules say a Human MA can kick in tanks then the GM has to deal with that absurdity somehow.

[Blue]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

I guess the reason my MAs have never had issues in game is that if an action seems illogical, I don't do it. I never have any of them kick tanks. And if they did, none of the ones I've designed have any prayer of damaging them.

 

Even my PC martial artist only does about 6-8D6, because she has a normal human STR and lots of training. I have no problem with her doing a bit of damage to a brick wall by punching it; Of course the only time she'd do that is if she's locked in a cell somewhere and then a cell is likely better than average defenses. She doesn't go around beating up buildings.

 

Now I have superpowered martial artists with ungodly numbers of dice (for an MA), but for them smacking around an armored personell carrier is expected.

[jackalope]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

So you missed the line in my post saying In campaigns where it is meant to be possible for humans to smash tanks' date=' it's not a problem[/i']?

 

It's not a problem in campaigns where humans aren't meant to do that either - unless the GM is dumb. I mean, there's a reason the game includes concepts like Active Point caps. A normal human being with maximum human strength (20) doing an Offensive Strike does a whopping 8d6 damage - and that's not going to go through a steel vault, no matter how many times you hit it. And if the GM is letting players build characters with more than 40 active points in a MA attack, that's not a problem with the system, but rather a problem with the GM.

[Vorsch]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

As regards active caps

 

Str 20 4d6

offencive strike +4d6

MA DC levels +2d6

MA Skill levels +4, +2d6

MA weapon +2d6

 

Thats 14d6, with nothing blatently illegal or over the top, and it costs 60pts when you buy 15pts more of manuvers

 

Also does 12d6 as a normal strike, equal to bricks to have Hit there AP limit of 60 str.

[Blue]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

It's easy to do something like "Cap on damage is 12D6. 6D6 for normals". As I see it, the problem is two-fold: The GM isn't willing to say, "That's outrageous amounts of damage so you better knock it down" and he's not willing to point out that attacking solid steel would be way out of character for a martial artist unless he's Iron Fist.

[Rapier]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

I really get tired of talking about martial artists like they all fit into a "class" or something.

Hear, hear!

 

Some martial artists are normal people who have taken a couple classes at the Y. CAN they buy up to some 12d6 or 14d6 within the rules? Sure, but where's the GM in all this? Why hasn't he stood up and said "Um, NORMAL? A NORMAL has 12d6 in MA?" The GM should never allow a normal to have 12d6 MA. For that matter, whats to stop a normal from purchasing 12d6 EB, Desol, Teleportation, EDM or a Damage Shield? I would hope there would be a GM jumping up and down and flinging his feces like an enraged monkey. Now there's a mental picture, isn't it?

 

Some martial artists are highly trained normals. Maybe they can break bricks and dent cars. Maybe allow them to top out at 12d6. Again, the GM should be enforcing genre conventions and reasonable powers limits.

 

Some martial artists are extremely trained supers. They can dent tanks, chew engine blocks and punch through the cranium of your average super-villain. These martial artists should be able to grab 15 or 20d6 in MA. Once again, the GM should be involved and make sure that these MAs have HIGH ENOUGH DCs in MAs.

 

Martial Artist is an archetype. It means that the character in question has, among other things, a significant number/amount/points placed in/around Martial Arts maneuvers and Martial Arts Effects. It doesn't speak at all of AP limits, Damage Classes or anything else. To think it does is a disservice to Martial Artists, the GM and the player.

 

I don't think MA is broken. I think it represents exactly what it was supposed to. I have ruled that certain materials make certain attacks against them Penetrating, Reduced Penetration, AP or completely ineffective. But that is all SFX. Besides consider:

 

MA: I punch the brick wall with my 10d6 Fast Strike.

GM: You dent the wall and do some damage, but don't break through.

MA: WHAT? I did more than enough BODY to break through a brick wall.

GM: Says who? How do you know what the DEF and BODY of that wall is?

MA: Well, it says on page xxx of FREd that a brick wall has...

GM: Whoa! Who says this is a typical brick wall or that all brick walls have that DEF and BODY?

MA: Um. Yeah, ok.

 

The only problem I foresee is if the GM announces that the party is hemmed in by a 4 DEF, 6 BODY wall. In which case, the GM should be smacked with a hex map.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Fixing Martial Artists

 

I like the idea' date=' but I'd rather see it done as a physical limitation on the Martial Artist, so as to permit both Batman and Karate Kid without forcing Karate Kid to use odd workarounds, like HA instead of +DC.[/quote']

 

It is a concept thing. Karate Kid is a classic example of a character who somehow uses Martial Arts to punch so hard he can crack Intertron, or stun Superboy... whatever. To my mind... as much as I liked the character as a kid... I'd never allow that "concept" in my world. It's TOO unrealistic. It goes beyond the fantastic, to the ridiculous.

 

It's a matter of taste, that's all.