Transformation trouble

[Sean Waters]

Slaps forehead. Bit too hard. That hurt...

 

Just realised what is wrong with transform: it is too cheap.

 

The design logic for it, I understand, is that if you do enough BODY to kill something then you might as well do pretty much anything else to it, it can't be worse (not actually true, mentally converting a hero into a villain is much more use than just taking them down, but never mind)

 

Therefore a major transform is priced like a killing attack.

 

There seems to be two pretty fundamental problems with this approach:

 

1. Transform, being a power that doesn't work against normal defences, should be priced like killing attack with AVLD, or 15 x 2.5 = 37 points per 1d6. Work it another way around, a similar effect is BODY drain, which costs, in effect, 20 points for 1d6 BODY drain (or 2d6 drain but you need 2 points of effect to drain 1 BODY) +1/2 advantage for ranged, would work out at 30 points. Don't even get me started on the increased cost due to the long return rate. I'm feeling generous, let us say 30 points per 1d6 of major transform as an absolute minimum.

 

IT HAS BEEN POINTED OUT THAT THIS PARAGRAPH IS INCORRECT: THOSE DOING SO ARE ABSOULTELY RIGHT 2. Doing BODY total damage doesn't kill in Champions, you need to get to negative BODY to do that, so you should have to do TWICE as much damage as we have been to affect a transformation. Let us stick with just doing BODY total 'damage' and double the cost of the base power (same diierence in the end run), as calculated above, and 1d6 of major transform should cost 60 points, at least. Mimimum.

 

30 (60) points?

 

Blimey, no wonder I thought it was a bit useful, transform, I've only been paying 1/2 (1/4) of the cost. Bargain.

 

I don't believe there are many people who don't believe that transform is either too cheap or too powerful, and I'm not counting here those of us with strangely effective favourite characters who utilise this oddly efficient power...I could be wrong, though.

 

So, is my maths and/or reasoning wrong, and if not, what should be done about it?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Transformation trouble

 

One major difference between Killing Attack and Transform that you're not considering in your analysis is that Killing Attack is still a plenty useful attack power before it kills the foe, while Transform is basically meaningless until it transforms the foe. A character with a 3d6 RKA may not kill his opponent with one shot, but he can stun him or knock him out. A character with a 3d6 Transform doesn't do anything substantial to his opponent until/unless the Transform gets its whole effect.

[aylwin13]

Re: Transformation trouble

 

Also, KA's (unless they have Limitations to the contrary) can be used to cut through materials, destroy objects, etc. Unless the Transformation is bought for that purpose it's useless in that situation.

 

Just my .02.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Transformation trouble

 

One major difference between Killing Attack and Transform that you're not considering in your analysis is that Killing Attack is still a plenty useful attack power before it kills the foe' date=' while Transform is basically meaningless until it transforms the foe. A character with a 3d6 RKA may not kill his opponent with one shot, but he can stun him or knock him out. A character with a 3d6 Transform doesn't do anything substantial to his opponent until/unless the Transform gets its whole effect.[/quote']

 

 

You are quite right, Derek, but compare a 4d6 transform to a 4d6 KA. against a reasonably average opponent: say 15rPD/25PD, 23 CON, 15 BODY, 45 STUN, MAYBE 5 Power DEF (unless it is a LOT more common in your games than in mine...)

 

4d6 averages 14 points and say 42 STUN. THE KA will take 4 hits to take down the opponent (assuming they don't get any PS 12 recoveries), the Transform will take 2 hits to do the same thing. Even if the target has 10 PowDEF it still takes only 4 hits AND you could hit your target on 4 consecutive days and have it work, whereas the stun from the KA is gone in minutes.

 

Far more use, I'd say.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Transformation trouble

 

Also, KA's (unless they have Limitations to the contrary) can be used to cut through materials, destroy objects, etc. Unless the Transformation is bought for that purpose it's useless in that situation.

 

Just my .02.

 

 

And a very shiny .02 it is!

 

It depends what the transform does, would be my .02 in the pot. If it is a mental transform, not much use against tanks (the tank thinks it is your friend...don't know, could work...), but if it turns the target into belgian waffles, it will work against pretty much anything, people, tanks, walls, so it can destroy stuff and most materials don't have Power DEF, so it can do it quicker and easier than a killing attack. And you get lunch thrown in!

 

Point is if you want to build it as a Kill Attack beater, it wins hands down 90+% of the time (and then there's the pesky character with 45 Power DEF. He's even bought his own syrup, the smug git...)

[Gary]

Re: Transformation trouble

 

You are quite right, Derek, but compare a 4d6 transform to a 4d6 KA. against a reasonably average opponent: say 15rPD/25PD, 23 CON, 15 BODY, 45 STUN, MAYBE 5 Power DEF (unless it is a LOT more common in your games than in mine...)

 

4d6 averages 14 points and say 42 STUN. THE KA will take 4 hits to take down the opponent (assuming they don't get any PS 12 recoveries), the Transform will take 2 hits to do the same thing. Even if the target has 10 PowDEF it still takes only 4 hits AND you could hit your target on 4 consecutive days and have it work, whereas the stun from the KA is gone in minutes.

 

Far more use, I'd say.

 

 

I think you're playing Transform wrong. You need to do double the target's Body to transform him. So 4d6 Transform vs 5 power defense and 15 body means 4 hits needed on average.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Transformation trouble

 

Well, the Transform does no STUN - how much of a limitation is that? It does no knockback either.

 

It also heals, even after the target is "dead" from a KA (or has an immediate reversal condition).

 

And no matter how many hits my teammate puts on Grond, my Transform has to start from scratch. If Grond is at 1 STUN, I have a decent shot at putting him down with a standard attack. My Transform has to start from scratch.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Transformation trouble

 

I think you're playing Transform wrong. You need to do double the target's Body to transform him. So 4d6 Transform vs 5 power defense and 15 body means 4 hits needed on average.

 

You are absolutely right...for the record I don't have any characters I play that use transformation. The first bit is right though: I revise the cost estimate to 30+ for 1d6.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Transformation trouble

 

Well, the Transform does no STUN - how much of a limitation is that? It does no knockback either.

 

It also heals, even after the target is "dead" from a KA (or has an immediate reversal condition).

 

And no matter how many hits my teammate puts on Grond, my Transform has to start from scratch. If Grond is at 1 STUN, I have a decent shot at putting him down with a standard attack. My Transform has to start from scratch.

 

No stun and no KB. No it does not, and I don't have the book with Grond in, least not for 5th ed. Does he have PowDEF and what are his rPD/PD and rED/ED?

 

You want to take a specific example, where Grond is already at 1 STUN? Fine, Grond superleaps away and takes a recovery...he can't recover that quickly from your transform attack, no matter what he does.

 

I'm not saying KA is no use, I'm just saying a power that effects defences a lot of characters don't have (which is why AVLD is so expensive...) that can be used to, for instance, effectively recruit Grond (or turn him into a Belgian Waffle) is pretty powerful with far more utility than a killing attack. As for the heal thing - come on - you've got what - at least a week to zap 'em again and top up the transform - that is no disadvantage at all, and if you do eat the Belgian Waffle, what happens to Grond when he does 'heal'...messy...

 

As to utility, most objects do not have any PowDEF, so who is going to get through the vault door quicker?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Transformation trouble

 

No stun and no KB. No it does not' date=' and I don't have the book with Grond in, least not for 5th ed. Does he have PowDEF and what are his rPD/PD and rED/ED?[/quote']

 

No idea - just selected as a name, so sub in any character you want (preferably w/ no Power Defense).

 

You want to take a specific example' date=' where Grond is already at 1 STUN? Fine, Grond superleaps away and takes a recovery...he can't recover that quickly from your transform attack, no matter what he does.[/quote']

 

A point in Transform's favour, for sure.

 

I'm not saying KA is no use' date=' [/quote']

 

Nor am I arguing Transform isn't a powerful effect. I was just listing off some of the drawbacks which I view as justifying the current point cost.

 

I'm just saying a power that effects defences a lot of characters don't have (which is why AVLD is so expensive...) that can be used to' date=' for instance, effectively recruit Grond (or turn him into a Belgian Waffle) is pretty powerful with far more utility than a killing attack.[/quote']

 

But also has some drawbacks, such as not accumulating with teammates' attacks. Certainly, it's still powerful, but a 12d6 EB is pretty powerful in its own way (let's not use a KA-specific comparison since then we get the Stun Mult argument on three concurrent threads ).

 

As for the heal thing - come on - you've got what - at least a week to zap 'em again and top up the transform - that is no disadvantage at all

 

Compared to being killed, it's a pretty serious improvement. And after a week, either we beat grond or he beat us anyway. I'd expect the character to go to ground - by the time of the next battle, he'd likely be fully healed unless this was a "encounter the same guys lots of times" scenario.

 

As to utility' date=' most objects do not have any PowDEF, so who is going to get through the vault door quicker?[/quote']

 

That depends on your Tranform. If it's "Transform to ally", the vault door stays shut for a long time. Improved Target Group will raise the cost above 15 per die, to between 18.75 and 30.

 

hmmm...I wonder if Questonite has power defense...no reason it couldn't be made a property of some items.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Transformation trouble

 

That depends on your Tranform. If it's "Transform to ally", the vault door stays shut for a long time. Improved Target Group will raise the cost above 15 per die, to between 18.75 and 30.

 

hmmm...I wonder if Questonite has power defense...no reason it couldn't be made a property of some items.

 

*laughing* No,the vault door will WANT to open for you.

 

One thing I've never been too clear on: you transform an enemy to (say) a soapstone statue (the belgian waffle thing is getting tired), and then - accidentally, obviously - the thing falls down a set of stairs and shatters and then - somehow - all the bits get mailed to different continents. What happens when the target heals? Does it heal from the largest bit, or is it in pieces?

 

Also, for a *hero* being able to disable without the possibilty of accidentally killing the target has to be a plus.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Transformation trouble

 

*laughing* No' date='the vault door will WANT to open for you.[/quote']

 

Yup

 

One thing I've never been too clear on: you transform an enemy to (say) a soapstone statue (the belgian waffle thing is getting tired)' date=' and then - accidentally, obviously - the thing falls down a set of stairs and shatters and then - somehow - all the bits get mailed to different continents. What happens when the target heals? Does it heal from the largest bit, or is it in pieces?[/quote']

 

Sounds like one of those "GM Call" things. For me, I'm not inclined to allow a "transform" primarily used to kill the target, or make the target an easy kill. But that involves a lot of hand-waving.

 

*Also' date=' for a *hero* being able to disable without the possibilty of accidentally killing the target has to be a plus.[/quote']

 

For sure - but Mental Paralysis or a big enough Entangle can do the same thing, and those both stop the target in one shot. You can also have a Stun only EB at no modifier to the cost. Neither that EB nor the Transform inflict BOD damage or Knockback.

 

I don't dispute Tranform can be a powerful effect, but I don't find it unbalanced in play, and certainly not to the point that I'd quadruple the cost to "fix" it. Certainly, if it's unbalancing your games, you need to look to a fix, whether mechanical or changing the allowable Transforms.

 

Now, that said, I would have to admit I haven't seen Transform used a lot in 5e since we haven't been playing characters with the ability. Transform has become significantly stronger in 5e by becoming Cumulative by default (that 15 points per d6 used to by all or nothing, with a +1/2 advantage required to make it sumulative). Going back to the 4e approach would probably be my first mechanism for fixing it were it to be overpowered in my campaign. That wuld mean 60 AP is either 4d6 all or nothing (fat chance!) or 2 1/2 d6 Cumulative (average 9, so three hits on a character with normal BOD and no Power Defense).

[Rapier]

Re: Transformation trouble

 

if you do eat the Belgian Waffle' date=' what happens to Grond when he does 'heal'...messy...[/quote']

Boy would the folks at the waste reclamation plant (the poo factory, as we called it when I was little) be surprised.

 

Imagine the taunting the next time you ran into Grond:

 

(Sniff sniff)...do you smell something?

Hey, Poopy!

Whats green and smell like shit?

 

And we haven't even started on the waffleness yet!!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Transformation trouble

 

Boy would the folks at the waste reclamation plant (the poo factory, as we called it when I was little) be surprised.

 

Imagine the taunting the next time you ran into Grond:

 

(Sniff sniff)...do you smell something?

Hey, Poopy!

Whats green and smell like shit?

 

And we haven't even started on the waffleness yet!!

 

I play in some strange games, what can I tell you? Actually all the games I play in tend to get a little strange...