Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

[Sword-dancer]

Re: The power of kings & emperors

 

Sword-dancer, I hope your GM is reading this.

Even a weak Emperor would probably execute a discourteous priestess (even in defiance of the law) in order to keep from looking weak (and ripe for overthrowing).

 

Is the leader of the Sisterhood willing to risk the Emperor's wrath just to protect a prideful priestess?

Wrong Question.

Is the High Queen of the Sisterhood willing to let the man slip from Justice, for which sins she was forced to led half a hundred sisters into death, not counted those who died because their los placed stress on them?

The sisterhood was grounded in a time of religous war, when one of the churches acted against the other churches, and wanted to force them under their sovereignity, the sisterhood was grounded as an independent kingdom for resistence against this.

 

Even if she is, the Emperor will just appeal to the Pantheon court.

Wherehe could be subject for his order to conjure Demons who killed people, a crime which is by divine law punished by burning at the stake and by magical law by death.

And the high priests had the authority to judge emperors.

Conjuring Demons is in the eyes of the churches a sin, by many punishable by death by burning.

 

The Church who was this wouldn`t be stupid without end, and the Priests of this church my Priestes had problem with, wouldn`t even dare to try to go to the public.

 

No thy won`t do it, my priestess had get an direct miracle of their goddess, heir honor is without stench, and speaking lies over Priests is a crime punished by the whip, and btw she isn`t the only in the churches and nobility who says this.

The Aftermath of the conjuration endet in an the destroyed capital of a duchess, an great part of the people of the duchess eaten by the ogres.

 

The population won't understand the social intricacies that allow priestesses to avoid duels. They're just going to hear how an Amazon priestess was too cowardly to answer a duel, and they'll believe the rumors.

No, it is a rule of the church not to duel with unworthy opponents.

Second there are mor than a few dozen 'Knights and nobles who could stand eyewitness of her fighting the command of the orcish armies and a demon guardian, in fact a greater Part of the imperial army and half of the imperial capital.

 

Emperors don't care that a law is "practically not changeable". By definition, that means that only the Emperor can change it ... at his whim.

No he can`t only the Council of the nobility could do that.

 

No she isn`t, and noSister would dare to stood a´gainst the chosen champion of the goddess, who hadn`t only rescued the imperial army, the Holy Banner of th church but fought and won against a greater Demon, one rank under one of the Lords of Hell.

 

Read Medival History or Egyptian, Canossa said yiu something, and this german emperoer was no Foll, but against this Emeperor Ethelred the illadvised would be wise.

 

The Amazon Sisterhood and church isn`t answerable to the other churches, they`ve no Authority over them.

The worldly rulers have No religious authority since the time the last High Priest Emporess was revolted against for demonconjuring and tyranny.

 

It`s about thousands years ago, but only now the law against female emperors had been lifted, after a civil war.

It`s highly doubtful even the imperial regulars would follow this order, half of the Vasalls wouldn`t definetly not do it, and then an attack against a church is a sin, who marks the offender with the sign of a sinner.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

Now it comes down to whether the Priestess paid sufficient point6s for the Priestess perk. If this perk effectively allows her to outrank the Emperor, it should not cost less than the "emperor" perk, should it?

 

Commonly, players want to RP the guy who would never bend the knee to anyone. "I'm role playing". Well and good. Here's how it goes down:

 

Player: Coric Bloodhands bows to no man!

 

GM: You're sure you don't want to bow to Emperor Anstasius? It's Imnperial Law.

 

Player: Yes!! Coric Bloodhands bows to no man! It's in his background - it's good role playing - you can't tell me how to play my character.

 

GM: OK. Everyone bows save Coric.

 

Player: That's more like it!

 

GM: Coric is seized by the Imperial Guards and beheaded on the spot.

 

Player: WQhat...but but

 

GM: [interrupting] The Imperial Guard is wholly intolerant of those who do not show the Emperor the respect they deem appropriate. It would be poor role playing for them to ignore this slight.

 

Player #2: Perhaps your new character should have a personality more consistent with ongoing survival in this campaign world.

[sbarron]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

Look, just because Sword-Dancer has a character in his campaign world that doesn't have to bow to the Emperor doesn't change the point of my comment.

 

99.9% of all PCs have to show proper deference to the their Lord, King, Duke, Emperor, whatever. Not the High Queen of the Sisterhood, but everyone else.

 

This is turning into one of those, "oh yeah, I have a Character named (fill in blank), and he/she is sooooo bad ass. He could definitely (fill in blank)" discussions you hear about at conventions.

[sbarron]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

Commonly' date=' players want to RP the guy who would never bend the knee to anyone. "I'm role playing". Well and good. Here's how it goes down:[/quote']

 

I agree completely. I might give the PC one more "are you sure that's what you want to do," though.

 

I am still amazed at how I can be playing with someone that's been gaming for 10+ years that are shocked when bad things happen after I ask that question and they don't change their mind. Absolutely amazing.

[Lightray]

Now it comes down to whether the Priestess paid sufficient point6s for the Priestess perk. If this perk effectively allows her to outrank the Emperor' date=' it should not cost less than the "emperor" perk, should it?[/quote']

It's a bit more complicated than that. Amazon priestess paid for her priestess Perk, and Emperor paid for his emperor Perk. They should both get the benefits of their Perks. One gets benefits in priestessy things, the other gets benefits in emperorish things.

 

If Fringe Benefit: Emperor costs more than Fringe Benefit: Amazon Priestess, well, then it must be applicable more often.

 

But that doesn't mean that Emperor always trumps Priestess.

 

Think about it this way: If I have the Duke Perk, I might get to use it to override someone's Local Law Enforcement Perk -- if they're giving me a parking ticket or something. But if they're after me for murder, my being a Duke isn't going to be more useful than that Law Enforcement Perk.

 

And even if I am a Duke, I should still treat Law Enforcement Guy with the respect implied in his Perk - I'll address him as "Officer". Just like Law Enforcement Guy addresses me with respect as "Your Grace".

 

Of course, to get to that point in your game, everyone has to know what is expected in the culture you're playing in. And as we've seen, people might have some wildly different ideas in that way.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

Player: Coric Bloodhands bows to no man!

GM: You're sure you don't want to bow to Emperor Anstasius? It's Imnperial Law.

Player: Yes!! Coric Bloodhands bows to no man!

 

At this point one of two things would happen, in my experience. If the other PCs like Coric, or at the very least find him a useful companion, they all jump on him and make him bow ("Bow, dumbass, or the guy in the fancy hat will have our heads on a pike!"), while the smoothest talker of the group explains to the head honcho that Coric suffered a head injury recently, and is not himself. If the other PCs do not like Coric, or find him more trouble than he's worth, they all take one step to the left, leaving a nice empty kill-zone around Coric.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

At this point one of two things would happen' date=' in my experience. If the other PCs like Coric, or at the very least find him a useful companion, they all jump on him and make him bow ("Bow, dumbass, or the guy in the fancy hat will have our heads on a pike!"), while the smoothest talker of the group explains to the head honcho that Coric suffered a head injury recently, and is not himself. If the other PCs do not like Coric, or find him more trouble than he's worth, they all take one step to the left, leaving a nice empty kill-zone around Coric.[/quote']

 

Actually, I was tempted to have "player 2", playing a fervently loyal patriot, strike Coric down. After all, HE'S got to role play HIS character too, right?

 

Tje bottom line is that, if there are no consequences for failure to use the proper protocols, players won't adhere to them. "Then the entire party is executed" isn't a great way to end a campaign, but it may flow logically from the game world. It comes down to how much "world realism" one is willing to trade off for "player happiness". If they won;t play natives of the world, are they really useful players?

[Lightray]

If they won't play natives of the world' date=' are they really useful players?[/quote']

Ouch. If someone has to start thinking along those lines, then there are more problems than Coric the Contrary being an ass about his PC's characterization.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

It's a bit more complicated than that. Amazon priestess paid for her priestess Perk' date=' and Emperor paid for his emperor Perk. They should [i']both[/i] get the benefits of their Perks. One gets benefits in priestessy things, the other gets benefits in emperorish things.

 

If Fringe Benefit: Emperor costs more than Fringe Benefit: Amazon Priestess, well, then it must be applicable more often.

 

But that doesn't mean that Emperor always trumps Priestess.

 

Think about it this way: If I have the Duke Perk, I might get to use it to override someone's Local Law Enforcement Perk -- if they're giving me a parking ticket or something. But if they're after me for murder, my being a Duke isn't going to be more useful than that Law Enforcement Perk.

 

And even if I am a Duke, I should still treat Law Enforcement Guy with the respect implied in his Perk - I'll address him as "Officer". Just like Law Enforcement Guy addresses me with respect as "Your Grace".

 

Of course, to get to that point in your game, everyone has to know what is expected in the culture you're playing in. And as we've seen, people might have some wildly different ideas in that way.

 

Actually, medieval English Sheriffs often had more power than Dukes in some circumstances. They could arrest them, for instance. But the Sheriff still makes obeisance to the Duke.

Sword_dancers campaign obviously has some specific circumstances which would cause these to particular characters to behave this way in their official capacities. That's all well and good. A Player should probably be made aware of the nature of the campaigns politics before they attempt the same thing and wind up in the stocks or worse.

 

Keith "discretion is the better part of valor" Curtis

[Titan59]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

I think under the circumstances described its perfectly permissable for the Emperor to have the players done for Lesse Majeste. Most players I know would probably pay due respect to the Emperor if the potentially lethal consequences of dissing him were explained to them before, during or after them doing it.

 

Normally as GM when this sort of thing arises I explain to the player the fallout that might occur from their actions and ask them if they are sure they want to do that or say that or whatever. If they say yes, hell, let the dice fall where they will.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

"Then the entire party is executed" isn't a great way to end a campaign' date=' but it may flow logically from the game world. It comes down to how much "world realism" one is willing to trade off for "player happiness".[/quote']

 

Well, fun and playability do trump realism. There needs to be a consensus among the players exactly what kind of game they are playing. If (most of) the players want to play a game where social niceties are important (or not), for example, the other player(s) need to go along with it or bow out of that particular game.

 

I think a good player will, if possible, go along with the rest of the group from time to time in a spirit of good sportsmanship, and play in or GM a game even though it's not her favorite setting, because there are bound to be occasions where the situation is reversed. A good game group has give and take, and good players know how to compromise so that most everyone gets to play what they enjoy. But of course, not every game is fun for every person, and if you really just absolutely don't want to play or GM a certain game, or in a certain setting, then you should pass on that game and let the rest of the group have fun. There's no harm in that: we're all adults, and there will be other games.

 

At least, that's how I see it. I know there are folks around here who vehemently disagree with me in this area.

[BlackSword]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

I agree that fun should be up there, and it is up to the GM how makes it fun, but it should also not break the suspension of disbelief or cause too much GM grief. If the players do not want to worry about social niceties, don't put them in a position where etiquette is important. However, a player putting his boot on the imperial throne to brush off some dirt is going to either a) break the suspension of disbelief for those that do not some protocal and make the PCs upstoppable as they answer to no one.

[Lightray]

Perhaps what is called for at this point is to add another "Thing" to the list:

 

I'd like for the players to agree with the GM just what kind of fantasy campaign we're playing.

 

I think it's easier when you're playing in an established game world -- "We're playing in Rokugan; everyone go read your L5R cards" as opposed to "We're playing in my half-finished homebrewed world; all the dragons got together and flooded everything".

 

This is actually a major concern in my group for me as a GM. I recently tried to interest our group in a Gloranthan HeroQuest game. One of my players was very peeved that she did not know all the background of the world (and Glorantha has a lot of weird background). In Rokugan, she was able to read up on L5R via books and a few suppliments, and so felt comfortable playing in that game. Glorantha was just too much information, apparently.

 

Homebrew campaign worlds are more problematical. You have the problem that while the GM knows a lot about the world, the players probably do not. And they're going to be bored listening to the GM lecture them about politics, history, economics, etc. (it's like a GM version of "how kewl is my character").

 

You also have the problem that homebrew worlds are invariably works in progress. It drives me crazy when the Duchy of Schlitz is the next kingdom over one week, and the next you find the County of Coors in between.

 

The best way to alleviate homebrewitis that I've found is to involve the players in the world-building. I've run an Ars Magica game where each player designed a magi House in the new world, and so knew quite a bit about the culture. And recently we built a fun D&D world after a spontaneous game of "You're gods creating a D&D world. Go."

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

Perhaps what is called for at this point is to add another "Thing" to the list:

I'd like for the players to agree with the GM just what kind of fantasy campaign we're playing.

 

Or, more simply:

 

I'd like for the players to agree just what kind of campaign we're playing.

 

(Since "the players" includes the GM, and since this problem is not exclusive to the fantasy genre.)

 

I think that's what some of these sorts of problems boil down to.

[Sword-dancer]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

This is turning into one of those, "oh yeah, I have a Character named (fill in blank), and he/she is sooooo bad ass. He could definitely (fill in blank)" discussions you hear about at conventions.

 

Listen I would only give an example why an character is within character, within his background and has good reasons to not bow to emperor and so on.

 

1 In their culture a man is considered second class.

2 In their culture Priestesses have a high social rank, as usual in the cultures of this faith, they get automatically respect for being priests.

 

3 The Emperor isn`t a man who deserves the last respect, and made grave sins against the laws of the gods.

 

 

How should a priestess of a goddess of Honor, of Knighthhood and so on follow loyal the tenets of their faith.

One of these is to fight against evil, defend the faithful and so on,

couldn`t criticize these emperor for his sins?

Or an Lord Marschall who betrays his own troops?

Sending them in insane Missions and let them hang to dry?

 

4 The Chracter is neither the chosen champion nor the high Queen, this is an NPC.

 

5 In an official Book the High Priest of the goddess called the son and heir of the emperor yellow, because he retreatet frombattle against dark forces, diplomatically but before his complete staff.

This is an established official game world.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

In their culture a man is considered second class...

 

No doubt that will be great comfort to her surviving family members.

 

"Well, (character X) is dead, but they died for a good cause: imagine, being asked to bow! Such affrontery!"

 

Pride goeth before a fall. Or, to put it another way:

 

"They tell the story of 'The Emperor's New Clothes' a little differently around here. It goes along as usual until the little boy pipes up, 'That man is naked!' Then the emperor turns and says, 'Kill that kid.' And they do." (slightly paraphrased from Reason magazine)

 

Being right does not protect you from the consequences of pissing off people who can have you killed.

[Sword-dancer]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

Surely they could try, but only if they risk to get caught.

[Eosin]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

How should a priestess of a goddess of Honor' date=' of Knighthhood and so on follow loyal the tenets of their faith.[/quote']

 

If this is a priestess of Knighthood then chilvary requires politeness and respect for your opponents position - even while warring with them.

 

A chilverous knight would bow to an Emperor - even one that they found abhorrent because if people start usurping station then the whole prospect of feudalism falls apart.

 

That said, you and your DM determine how your own game goes and if the amazon priestess of war and knighthood can be rude and disrepectful of men then that is perfectly fine - It does not conform with the generally accepted tenents of knighthood which may be causing part of the confusion but it is still fine.

[Sword-dancer]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

@Eosin

 

This is warranted and given to enemies and opposition of Honor.

She don`t consider this person`s honorable quite the opposite she considers them very dishonorable.

 

Naturally an Noble would follow the rules of politeness and etiquette with the emperor, but this isn`t the same as respecting him.

 

Dynasties has changed in this realm, more than once, the emperors father won the crown in a coupdèrtat from his cousins.

 

She is disrespectful, yes, if declaring the sins of persons, their crimes against the laws of the gods, breaking of oaths, withholding rights and privileges, letting the men who you `ve given command dying because you give them impossible tasks and withhold them available reinforcments is meant to be,

ordering to refuse people of the state security and send them back to the parts of the realm taken by infernal servants, rude and disrespectful to preach against this acts, made them known, warns for it ...

then so be it, the souls and lives of the victims weights more than that.

[Sword-dancer]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

And btw could we end these off topic going?

I wanted to show that it could give characters with valid reasons not to follow the you must bow to the King and respect him.

Not discuss what happens when different official viewpoints off an official gameworld collide.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

This is warranted and given to enemies and opposition of Honor. She don`t consider this person`s honorable quite the opposite she considers them very dishonorable.

**********************************************************

She is disrespectful, yes, if declaring the sins of persons, their crimes against the laws of the gods, breaking of oaths, withholding rights and privileges, letting the men who you `ve given command dying because you give them impossible tasks and withhold them available reinforcments is meant to be,

ordering to refuse people of the state security and send them back to the parts of the realm taken by infernal servants, rude and disrespectful to preach against this acts, made them known, warns for it ...

then so be it, the souls and lives of the victims weights more than that.

 

You consider the Emperor dishonourable. Well and good.

 

He considers you disrespectful. Well and good.

 

He has 20,000 trained guards. You have a funeral. Well and good.

 

Or he accepts your actions with good grace, for whatever reason the Emperor may have. Well and good.

 

Whatever the Emperor chooses to do must be right, for the Emperor defines that which is right. Praise the Emperor. It is well and good.

 

[ASIDE: I have no problem with your character feeling she has the right to disrespect the Emperor provided you have no problem if my charactert feels it is his right to ruthlessly slay anyone who disrespects his Liege. It's when "I'm allowed to RP but you aren't" comes into the picture that I consider there to be a macro problem.]

[Sword-dancer]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

The regent had no 20.000 guards, the full regular imperial army comes at 17500 Soldiers in the ranks, and not even all elite cavalry regiments are full trained and fit for combat duty.

Half of the provinces think loud over declaring themselves independent, the nobles refused the regent call for higher taxes, especially the only imperial Province who was loyal during the ursupation, financed an small army voluntarly against the orcs, paid voluntraily more money to the imperial treasure and supported the taxes of an other imperial province who is now front territory.

Perhaps because the regent goes over their Tradution, Law and Honor, perhaps because the Regent refused them to defend themselves against the radiers who burned and plundered in the province, perhaps because the regent refused them to take the part of the province back from the heathens who occupied ist generations before.

 

And btw the home fortress of the PC had defended this Border the last century.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

The regent had no 20.000 guards' date=' the full regular imperial army comes at 17500 Soldiers in the ranks...[/quote']

 

This thread is starting to remind me of someone who used to show up on rec.games.frp.supers. Anyone here remember C++?

[Sword-dancer]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

Sorry I`d forgotten the smiley.

My Intention was to give a better view of the complete picture.

[UltraRob]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

Sigh. Yes, this is turning into a "Wolverine can kick anyone's ass" thread.

 

Sword-Dancer, I have two questions...

 

1) Could your high priestess of priestessness actually prove the Emperor "consorted with Satan" to said council of gods? Also, if you are on trial, why would anything be brought up against the Emperor?

 

God of Tacos: We're his to discuss the charges against Priestess X.

 

Priestess X: "Emperor Y, Consorted with Satan!"

 

God of Doritos: That's nice dear, would the Emperor please state his case?

 

Priestess X: "Emperor Y consorted with Satan!"

 

God of Chocolate: Priestess X, if you continue with your outbursts you will have your ability to speak removed. The Emperor will now speak.

 

Priestess X: "Emperor Y consort...urk!"

 

God of Tacos: Thank you God of Doritos. Emperor Y, proceed.

 

Emperor Y: "Thank you great lords and ladies, I come to you today to speak of a grave matter of insolence which definies comprehension..."

 

If you don't believe me, try bringing up the fact the guy suing you for hitting his dog with your car is a known drug dealer and see how the court reacts?

 

They don't care, he's not on trial, YOU are.

 

 

 

2) Did your priestess buy...immunity to poison?

 

To this day, I am humbled that I lost one of my favorite characters to a major villian I mouthed off to, so she simply had my food at a local restaurant poisoned. (And yes, the GM gave me hints, it wasn't an out of the blue malice thing...) Of course there was a local doctor ready to help me, it just so happened she worked for the villian...

 

The simpliest ways are usually the most effective and deadly.

 

(And, can lead to great adventures looking for cures! Sure your priestess has cure poisons, but there's always that poison bought with "difficult to dispel" made from the dark heart of an Orge Lich...Sure it costs money, but then, who else could afford it more than the Emperor?)

 

I have to say, you must have your GM seriously whipped. I run games where everything is part of a living environment, and while I have characters retire as lords and ladies all the time, everything is part of an ecosystem and the PCs know it. In an ecosystem, nobody stays on top of the food chain for very long if they can't hold their place with strength or guile. If you could hold your own against what the Emperor sent after you, fine and dandy, but as the man once said..."she's gotta sleep sometime"...

 

Unless you plan to raise an army to fight the emperor, you will bow to the position, if not the person.

 

Rob