Galactic Champions vs 2K Master Villains

[Metaphysician]

Okay, we've all wargamed the Champions vs various villains before. Its not that difficult.

 

A trickier task would be to figure out how the 3K Champions would do against various 2K master villains, due to greater numbers and variability.

 

This thread is for anybody who is up to the task in analyzing how the characters would do, in small ways ( "I think Bulletproof would be useful against Mechanon, because he can soak all his attacks" ) or big ( "Okay, here are the results of my playtesting the fight, starting at segment 12. . ." ).

 

Ground rules for all such playtesting and wargaming here:

 

-Neither side is surprised. Both sides have any non-persistent powers activated, and it starts on first segment 12.

 

-Both sides may start with any *reasonable* VPP configs where applicable. Assume both sides knew who they would be fighting

 

-Both sides start on or near the ground, and relatively near to each other ( within a full move )

 

-Reasonable VPP configs only, given the SFX and power level of the characters in question. This means that, say, Takofanes is not going to haul out a Megascale AoE Selective Continuous Uncontrolled 0 END Transform into Undead Slaves, but he's also not going to only haul out 0 END Energy Blasts. When in doubt, ask me.

 

-By default, no minions at the start of the fight. Those capable of Summoning minions during the fight are free to do so.

 

Okay, lets start with the perennial classic: Mechanon.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Galactic Champions vs 2K Master Villains

 

Okay. Mechanon's easy. Now, unfortunately, I don't have my books with me right now, so I'll have to go by memory.

 

Mechanon only has 30 Defense. That's a problem, mainly because the Galactic Champions have far greater firepower than 20th C heroes. Though Defender is poorly built, he does possess a 20D6 EB. The heroes can gang-tackle Mechanon and simply beat him into submission. There's no need for tactics--it's just a race. Mechanon can't daze the heroes fast enough to keep them from dazing him and knocking him unconscious. The Champions can simply trade blows with him without much problem.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Galactic Champions vs 2K Master Villains

 

Pretty much agreed. The only thing slightly up for grabs is that Defender 3K, one of the big guns of the group, as a suit AI, which Mechanon could potentially mind control into doing something. This only matters if the AI is capable of control of the suit, though ( it probably is, granted ).

 

Okay, a tougher target: Gravitar.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Galactic Champions vs 2K Master Villains

 

Did some crunching on this one.

 

The Champs 3K team quickly and easily beat Gravitar. . . but almost solely due to Sage. He's got the perfect powerset to take her down:

 

-Higher Ego than Gravitar's Dex for first action in the initial segment 12.

 

-Sufficiently high ECV to make hitting her almost assured.

 

-Enough mental firepower to almost assure that Gravitar will be unable to fight effectively, setting her up for a finisher by his allies ( specifically, he can achieve Stun via his 10d6 Ego Attack, or an Ego +30 success with Mind Control/Mental Illusions ).

 

OTOH, if for some reason Sage *doesn't* take her down in his first action ( poor roll, basically ), he's not going to be a factor much longer, as she can easily take him out. At that point ( or if we assume Sage isn't present ), things get messy as hell. On one hand, most of the Champs are capable of hitting and hurting her. OTOH, she's got a *lot* of attacks.

[Koshka]

Re: Galactic Champions vs 2K Master Villains

 

This only matters if the AI is capable of control of the suit, though ( it probably is, granted ).

 

The book's at home, but I recall the AI taking the armor out for a spin being one of Defender 3K's plot hooks. Now, whether Mechanon would check for AI presence ....

[Metaphysician]

Re: Galactic Champions vs 2K Master Villains

 

The book's at home' date=' but I recall the AI taking the armor out for a spin being one of Defender 3K's plot hooks. Now, whether Mechanon would check for AI presence ....[/quote']

 

Thats exactly what I was figuring. And since there's a good chance he didn't stick Mental Defense in the AI. . .

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Galactic Champions vs 2K Master Villains

 

The chances of Ole Mech head not checking for AI on segment 12 are nil.

 

This is the hyper advanced future and ole Mechs playground.

 

That said it is a race as Champsguy said.

 

As to Gravitar...basic slug em up. She loses like most megavillians because she is only herself and the opposition has sheer numbers.

 

Hawksmoor

[MitchellS]

Re: Galactic Champions vs 2K Master Villains

 

The book's at home' date=' but I recall the AI taking the armor out for a spin being one of Defender 3K's plot hooks. Now, whether Mechanon would check for AI presence[/quote']

 

The problem is that mental powers suck in the game. Mechanon can use his 17d6 mind control on Suit, but assuming and average roll of 60 and Suit having a 20 ego, most +30 effects only give a bonus of -2 to the break out roll. Suit is going to escape with an 11- roll on his next phase. On top of that because Mechanon can't mpa the mind control with any of his other attacks he has just lost an attack phase and gave the Champions an advantage.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Galactic Champions vs 2K Master Villains

 

I disagree a bit re: Gravitar. She's almost perfectly designed for fighting groups. Its all about the big ass AoE 50 STR TK. Turn it on in Gravity Up mode, and the only GC members not immobilized are Defender, Thalya, and Rampart, and even they get hindered significantly.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Galactic Champions vs 2K Master Villains

 

A switch in focus: How would they do against the villain team the Crowns of Krim??

[Kristopher]

Re: Galactic Champions vs 2K Master Villains

 

The problem is that mental powers suck in the game. Mechanon can use his 17d6 mind control on Suit' date=' but assuming and average roll of 60 and Suit having a 20 ego, most +30 effects only give a bonus of -2 to the break out roll. Suit is going to escape with an 11- roll on his next phase. On top of that because Mechanon can't mpa the mind control with any of his other attacks he has just lost an attack phase and gave the Champions an advantage.[/quote']

 

"Ineffective in combat" != "sucks."

[Metaphysician]

Re: Galactic Champions vs 2K Master Villains

 

That, and alot of the "inefficacy" of mental powers comes from poor usage. Don't waste time going for the Ego +30 type results, unless you have considerably overkill power. Word your commands more carefully to produce disruption. For instance, instead of commanding a selfless hero to attack an ally, command him to go rescue/evacuate nearby innocent bystanders. Instead of eating a Psych Limit penalty, you now are getting a Psych Limit *bonus*.

 

Or, the most evil weapon: Mental Illusions, Ego +30 illusion "Victim wins the fight against me in a hard fought manner." Against the more confident, or with the right details, it could easily be a lesser Ego+ value required. . . and with greatly reduced chances of even trying to breakout.

[Chuckg]

Re: Galactic Champions vs 2K Master Villains

 

For an example, my character Starguard.

 

While she has a fairly high EGO (EGO 25), she has absolutely no mental defense.

 

So, let's suppose that Menton fires up a 20d6 Mind Control (standard effect for 60) and commands her "Fire up your death beam! Kill Horus-Re!"

 

No sweat, right? EGO+30 on Starguard is 55, he can get 60 just with Standard Effect, shazam.

 

Wrong. For Starguard to kill /anyone/ (for that matter, to attack with intent to do non-trivial BODY damage to anyone) runs right into one Totally Committed Psych Lim. For her to betray anyone, much less her father-figure, runs right into another.

 

That bumps the difficulty up to EGO plus fifty... which means not even Menton can do it. At least, not unless he rolls notably above average. (And even then, he's going up against a pretty sick Breakout roll.)

 

On the other hand, if he'd given the Mind Control command "Don't hit me! I'm fragile and break easily!"... well, that's it, Starguard's /completely/ out of the fight. In that instance, he's got two Totally Committed Psych Lims working in his *favor*... which brings his difficulty down to EGO+10, or even possibly base EGO. Which he can easily exceed by 30 to 40 points.

 

Hell, for a command like that, I don't think Jeff would even allow me to /try/ a Breakout roll... it's not something she'd want to resist.(*)

 

 

 

 

 

(*) In her very first superbattle, Starguard greatly misjudged an opponent's PD and punched him in the face... with about 15 DCs worth of punch. Her later need to undo the horrible damage she caused was one of the several catalysts to her discovering she had healing powers.

 

But ever since then, she's been borderline paranoid about hitting *anything* too hard...

[Gary]

Re: Galactic Champions vs 2K Master Villains

 

I'd probably rule Starguard attacking Horus-Re to be only +30 not +50. I would imagine that long experience with him would let her know that he has the defenses to take whatever she dishes out. Attacking a 2 PD normal would be a different story.

 

It'd be like if Captain America was told to attack someone. I'm sure he'd be a lot more willing and likely to attack Thor or Wonderman with the edge of his shield than to attack Jarvis.

[Chuckg]

Re: Galactic Champions vs 2K Master Villains

 

You overlook that Starguard has a cosmic VPP -- and knows exactly what Horus' equivalent of Kryptonite is.

 

Besides, you pick a nit. The general point remains unchanged -- 'Even if you're Menton, don't go around ordering people to violate two totally committed Psych Lims when the base command is already EGO +30. Find something that's more in line with a direction they're inclined to go in anyway.'

[MitchellS]

Re: Galactic Champions vs 2K Master Villains

 

For an example, my character Starguard.

 

While she has a fairly high EGO (EGO 25), she has absolutely no mental defense.

 

So, let's suppose that Menton fires up a 20d6 Mind Control (standard effect for 60) and commands her "Fire up your death beam! Kill Horus-Re!"

 

No sweat, right? EGO+30 on Starguard is 55, he can get 60 just with Standard Effect, shazam.

 

Wrong. For Starguard to kill /anyone/ (for that matter, to attack with intent to do non-trivial BODY damage to anyone) runs right into one Totally Committed Psych Lim. For her to betray anyone, much less her father-figure, runs right into another.

 

That bumps the difficulty up to EGO plus fifty... which means not even Menton can do it. At least, not unless he rolls notably above average. (And even then, he's going up against a pretty sick Breakout roll.)

 

On the other hand, if he'd given the Mind Control command "Don't hit me! I'm fragile and break easily!"... well, that's it, Starguard's /completely/ out of the fight. In that instance, he's got two Totally Committed Psych Lims working in his *favor*... which brings his difficulty down to EGO+10, or even possibly base EGO. Which he can easily exceed by 30 to 40 points.

 

Hell, for a command like that, I don't think Jeff would even allow me to /try/ a Breakout roll... it's not something she'd want to resist.(*)

 

 

 

 

 

(*) In her very first superbattle, Starguard greatly misjudged an opponent's PD and punched him in the face... with about 15 DCs worth of punch. Her later need to undo the horrible damage she caused was one of the several catalysts to her discovering she had healing powers.

 

But ever since then, she's been borderline paranoid about hitting *anything* too hard...

#1 Menton only has a 16d6 Mind Control, so his average roll will be 56. That still makes the +30 but just barely.

 

#2 You're assuming that a mentalist will know what an opponent's total psychological limitations are. Most of the time, unless they have had many encounters, that is not the case.

 

#3 Ego +40 can over-ride psychological limitations. So in that case if Menton can roll a 65 on his 16d6 he can command Star*Guard to toast Horus-Re. Of course the character has a 14- breakout roll to resist on his next phase.

 

#4 I serously doubt any character would believe that Menton is fragile and breaks easily. I'd allow that if it was the first time the character encounted Menton, and they blew thier KS: Supervillains/Superhuman World roll but after that it's a no-go.

 

I'm not saying mental powers can't be useful but most decent effects require a +20 or more and assuming a 12d6 attack and 15 Ego the breakout roll will be around 11- for a +20 and a +30 effect won't work at all. The odds are all in the player's favore to break out.

[Gary]

Re: Galactic Champions vs 2K Master Villains

 

You overlook that Starguard has a cosmic VPP -- and knows exactly what Horus' equivalent of Kryptonite is.

 

Besides, you pick a nit. The general point remains unchanged -- 'Even if you're Menton, don't go around ordering people to violate two totally committed Psych Lims when the base command is already EGO +30. Find something that's more in line with a direction they're inclined to go in anyway.'

 

 

Depending on what exactly is allowed in the VPP, Horus-Re is still going to be far more resistant to damage than most people.

 

However, the reasonable command would be to ask Starguard to paralyze or put Horus to sleep as protection for Menton.

 

Of course someone like Takofanes with up to 30d6 mind control can demand any damn thing he wishes...

[Chuckg]

Re: Galactic Champions vs 2K Master Villains

 

> #1 Menton only has a 16d6 Mind Control, so his average roll will be 56.

> That still makes the +30 but just barely.

 

> #2 You're assuming that a mentalist will know what an opponent's total

> psychological limitations are. Most of the time, unless they have had many

> encounters, that is not the case.

 

... isn't the discreet ferreting out of information exactly what surreptitious Telepathy attempts are *FOR*?

 

Any mentalist who intends to fight superheroes, but didn't spend some prep time quietly walking by on the street outside and doing a little discreet thought-tapping, is somebody who's seriously under-utilizing his talents.

 

(Granted, in Starguard's case, that would actually require detective work -- she has Invisibility to Mental Sense Group, which as per the BBB does not block Mind Control, but does make Telepathy fairly pointless. Of course, she's also blatantly obvious to figure out by anybody who spends any time checking into her record, or the heads of people who know her.

 

The thing is, I am assuming that if Menton has come to pick a fight with me, Menton has first done some adequate scouting out of his opponent. He /paid/ for obnoxious telepathic powers, why not /use/ them?)

 

> #3 Ego +40 can over-ride psychological limitations. So in that case if

> Menton can roll a 65 on his 16d6 he can command Star*Guard to toast

> Horus-Re. Of course the character has a 14- breakout roll to resist on his

> next phase.

 

Her. And when it goes *doubly* against their psychological limitations?

 

> #4 I serously doubt any character would believe that Menton is fragile and

> breaks easily.

 

That's what the Mind Control is for.

 

Remember, one of the other effects of EGO +30 is "Target will believe statements that directly contradict known reality."

 

> I'd allow that if it was the first time the character encounted Menton, and

> they blew thier KS: Supervillains/Superhuman World roll but after that it's a

> no-go.

 

Another problem is that Starguard doesn't /have/ KS: Superhuman World or KS: Supervillains, and /hasn't/ ever met Menton before... but given the listed effect for an EGO+30 base, that's not really relevant.

 

> I'm not saying mental powers can't be useful but most decent effects

> require a +20 or more and [snip]

 

So phrase effects that go *with* a target's Psych Lims, and drop that back down to EGO +10 or base EGO.

 

The whole point of this discussion and all prior examples is to show that Subtletly Is Important. Even Menton's overwhelming smash-em-down psi attacks hit a distinct upper limit at a certian level, and lower psis don't even get that high.

 

That's the /point/. Otherwise, Mind Control would be the most abused power in the game. As is, the character only gets major mileage out of it if the player puts major effort into thinking about it.

 

I do not see this as a bug. It is a feature.

[Chuckg]

Re: Galactic Champions vs 2K Master Villains

 

Of course someone like Takofanes with up to 30d6 mind control can demand any damn thing he wishes...

 

At this point, I'd petition the DM to have Starguard's "Archangel Powers" VPP dump *into* Mental Defense -- or, at the least, a hefty EGO Aid for herself. Primal mystic evil like Takofanes is something that she's programmed, on the very deepest level of her soul, to react violently against. But that's a character conception thing and I veer on OT-ness.

[Chuckg]

Re: Galactic Champions vs 2K Master Villains

 

To use another example, if I wanted to use some Mind Control to delay Doctor Destroyer for a few phases, I woudn't try "Stop!" "Don't hurt me!" or "Go save that kitten!" What would be the point? It's violently opposed to both his overall nature /and/ his current desire.

 

Instead, I'd try "Before you kiill me, you /really/ want to explain to me just exactly how screwed I am. Come on, monologue! You're Doctor Destroyer! What can I possibly do to you? Brag a little!"

 

Given that this is Destroyer we're dealing with here, I could probably milk a whole Turn's worth of stalling out of this -- at least, if nobody else was shooting at him. His monologues do tend to run into overtime.

[Gary]

Re: Galactic Champions vs 2K Master Villains

 

To use another example, if I wanted to use some Mind Control to delay Doctor Destroyer for a few phases, I woudn't try "Stop!" "Don't hurt me!" or "Go save that kitten!" What would be the point? It's violently opposed to both his overall nature /and/ his current desire.

 

Instead, I'd try "Before you kiill me, you /really/ want to explain to me just exactly how screwed I am. Come on, monologue! You're Doctor Destroyer! What can I possibly do to you? Brag a little!"

 

Given that this is Destroyer we're dealing with here, I could probably milk a whole Turn's worth of stalling out of this -- at least, if nobody else was shooting at him. His monologues do tend to run into overtime.

 

 

Not in Champions. Soliloquies take no time.

[MitchellS]

Re: Galactic Champions vs 2K Master Villains

 

... isn't the discreet ferreting out of information exactly what surreptitious Telepathy attempts are *FOR*?

 

Any mentalist who intends to fight superheroes, but didn't spend some prep time quietly walking by on the street outside and doing a little discreet thought-tapping, is somebody who's seriously under-utilizing his talents.

Of course those telepathy attempts are visible to the person being hit by them.

 

Her. And when it goes *doubly* against their psychological limitations?

I'm not sure you get the double effect. I probably wouldn't grant it as being able to defeat one +40 seems like enough.

 

That's what the Mind Control is for.

 

Remember, one of the other effects of EGO +30 is "Target will believe statements that directly contradict known reality."

That's a good point. I'm not sure Menton would use that tactic, he is totally commited to his idea that he is superior, but I'll agree with the +30 effect.

 

Another problem is that Starguard doesn't /have/ KS: Superhuman World or KS: Supervillains, and /hasn't/ ever met Menton before... but given the listed effect for an EGO+30 base, that's not really relevant.

Well you should have one of them. You are an Avenger/JLA level character. You should know what's going on in that enviroment, and in the Alien World as well.

 

The whole point of this discussion and all prior examples is to show that Subtletly Is Important. Even Menton's overwhelming smash-em-down psi attacks hit a distinct upper limit at a certian level, and lower psis don't even get that high.

 

That's the /point/. Otherwise, Mind Control would be the most abused power in the game. As is, the character only gets major mileage out of it if the player puts major effort into thinking about it.

Subtlety is not how the power is used in the comic books. Mentalists don't fail unless the person being mind controlled has some sort of epiphany to allow them to break out: You killed Bucky! Within the game the power needs to be used the opposite way of how it's used in the comics. That's what I object to. A 60 point energy blaster is far more powerful than a 60 point mind controller. The blaster gets to blast everying. The mind controller must try and manipulate everything into that shade of gray so them GM will allow them to be effective. I just don't like that.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Galactic Champions vs 2K Master Villains

 

Not in Champions. Soliloquies take no time.

 

So remind him that he MUST pace about dramatically, and posture appropriately.

[The Watcher]

Re: Galactic Champions vs 2K Master Villains

 

Well you should have one of them. You are an Avenger/JLA level character. You should know what's going on in that enviroment' date=' and in the Alien World as well. [/quote']Starguard's a neophyte who just became a hero a few days ago.

 

She basically was imbued with phenomenal cosmic power but has little to no training on how to use it. So she's at the power level to be on a JLA/Avengers Team, but she's getting all of her training on the job.

[Chuckg]

Re: Galactic Champions vs 2K Master Villains

 

Yeah. One of the primary reasons I'm on this team is because of the heart attacks provoked by the idea of somebody with my combination of Phenomenal Cosmic Powers and Total Inexperience walking around /without/ expert guidance.