Well blow me down

[Sean Waters]

I was building a character with wind powers (no, not that sort of wind power...) who can summon up a gale to blow people over.

 

Working on a 70AP attack, a 14d6 EB would average 47 STUN damage and 7" KB, a 8d6 double KB power would average 28 STUN and 9" KB.

 

That is an awful lot of damage lost for 2 inches of additional KB. Could it be that Double KB is too expensive?

 

KB is relatively easy to resist, even without the power KB resistance (which is also too expensive, I think) and only does half damage unless you hit something that stops you.

 

Two possible fixes:

 

1. Make the advantage +1/2: the above attack then gets 9 1/2d6 double KB for 33 STUN and 11" KB. (+1/4 would make it a 11d6 - 38 STUN and 15" KB)

 

 

2. Allow more than one level of Double KB: 2 levels would allow 5 1/2d5 Quad KB, or 19STUN and 13" KB. I'd favour this solution, and I'd max at 2 levels of Double KB (3 levels would allow 4d6 Octo KB or 14 STUN, 25" KB, which is probably too much.)

[alexraccoon]

Re: Well blow me down

 

Perhaps it is not the sytem that is wrong but your approach. Rather than using an eb to simulate wind I would use an area effect tk.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Well blow me down

 

70 AP attack, huh? Could you go to 72 AP? If so, how about this...

 

Wind Blast: 12d6 Dispel vs. Knockback Resistance, Does Knockback (+1/4), Double Knockback (+3/4) (72 Active Points).

 

This will do 17" of KB on average, and shut off any Knockback Resistance they might have as well.

[Rapier]

Re: Well blow me down

 

I was building a character with wind powers (no, not that sort of wind power...) who can summon up a gale to blow people over.

 

Working on a 70AP attack, a 14d6 EB would average 47 STUN damage and 7" KB, a 8d6 double KB power would average 28 STUN and 9" KB.

 

That is an awful lot of damage lost for 2 inches of additional KB. Could it be that Double KB is too expensive?

 

KB is relatively easy to resist, even without the power KB resistance (which is also too expensive, I think) and only does half damage unless you hit something that stops you.

 

Two possible fixes:

 

1. Make the advantage +1/2: the above attack then gets 9 1/2d6 double KB for 33 STUN and 11" KB. (+1/4 would make it a 11d6 - 38 STUN and 15" KB)

 

 

2. Allow more than one level of Double KB: 2 levels would allow 5 1/2d5 Quad KB, or 19STUN and 13" KB. I'd favour this solution, and I'd max at 2 levels of Double KB (3 levels would allow 4d6 Octo KB or 14 STUN, 25" KB, which is probably too much.)

I've long thought x2 KB was overpriced. But I have only had a player or two with x2 KB over the years so never worried too much about it. I've got lots of villains with x2 KB but I don't need to worry about points for them.

 

Considering mitigating factors:

- Most characters don't have any KB resistance.

- KB has the potential to nearly double the dice done with an attack by slamming the target into an object

 

Factors in favour of a cost change:

- KB is a really poor way to do damage: it requires a hard surface/object and good aiming of the attack.

- The loss of BODY to calculate KB (-2d6 or -3d6 depending on Normal/Killing) really decreases the amount of potential KB

- Given the loss in BODY (as directly above), it is cheaper to purchase additional DC (and more certain)

 

It's another one of those powers/modifiers that really skates to line (not like Killing Attacks which are perfect and don't need changing and everyone agrees on ) on usability. For me, it comes down to pure SFX. If that's the effect you are looking for (increasing the pushing force of the attack) you lump it. If you are trying to sneak in a couple extra dice of damage, it works best to just buy the extra dice.

 

I could easily see x2 KB being lowered to +1/2...but am not too stressed at its current +3/4.

[jackalope]

Re: Well blow me down

 

I like Derek's build, that's very unorthodox but entirely effective.

 

Now, "a gale to blow people over" doesn't sound very damaging to me, in fact it sounds a lot like the Gust of Wind spell from AD&D.

 

So rather than use Knockback to achieve the effect, I tried a few other things:

 

Here you have a short blast of wind that does no damage, but does pick the target up and toss them around. Using this power, you can actually decide where the wind blows them, so if you want to blow them up onto the roof of a nearby building, or stick them up in a tree, this works really well. You can force people to do uncontrolled Move-Throughs. Fun! Plus, the power can also be used on yourself, or used to save an ally in a pinch, since it does no damage in of itself.

 

Wind Gust:

Flight 14", Ranged (+1/2), Usable As Attack (+1); Instant (-1/2) (70 Active Points)

Cost: 47

 

Here's a slightly cheaper version that doesn't allow you to pick people up and whip them around corners:

 

"No Whipping" Wind Gust:

Flight 14", Ranged (+1/2), Usable As Attack (+1); Restricted Path (Only To Move Away From User In Straight Line; -1), Instant (-1/2)

Cost: 28

 

A version that allows you to not only throw people around, but keep them suspended on in the air by wind:

 

Continuous Wind Gust:

Flight 14", Ranged (+1/2), Usable As Attack (+1)

Cost: 70

 

Leaping can't turn corners, but here's a build that will really MOVE people:

 

Wind Gust:

Leaping 28", Ranged (+1/2), Usable As Attack (+1) (70 Active Points); Forward Movement Only (-1)

Cost: 70

 

And finally, just for fun, if you just want a wind blast the bowls everyone in an area over, here's how you do it:

 

Wind Storm

: Flight 2", Position Shift, Ranged (+1/2), Usable As Attack (+1), Area Of Effect (16" Radius; +1 3/4), Selective (+1/4), Conforming (+1/2); Instant (-1/2) (45 Active Points)

Cost: 30

 

The flight lifts everyone you Select 2" into the air. The Position Shift realigns them so their heads are pointed towards the ground. The Instant means they fall at the end of your phase.

 

It's the Amazing Turn Everyone Upside Down Power! Great for slowing down a horde of mooks.

[Rapier]

Re: Well blow me down

 

70 AP attack, huh? Could you go to 72 AP? If so, how about this...

 

Wind Blast: 12d6 Dispel vs. Knockback Resistance, Does Knockback (+1/4), Double Knockback (+3/4) (72 Active Points).

 

This will do 17" of KB on average, and shut off any Knockback Resistance they might have as well.

What I like about this construct, is that it neatly gets around the "Adjustment Powers Take Effect After a Linked Attack" rule. Its much neater and simpler than TK, x2 KB EBs, Flight UAA etc. I've already retrofitted three or four characters with this construct.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Well blow me down

 

RE: The Dispel vs KB. I'll continue to make my standard boilerplate argument on this one: attacks which change defenses take effect after attacks against that work against that defense -- and it doesn't matter whether it's the same attack or not. This is thematically the same as a Drain vs Power Defense.

[jackalope]

Re: Well blow me down

 

RE: The Dispel vs KB. I'll continue to make my standard boilerplate argument on this one: attacks which change defenses take effect after attacks against that work against that defense -- and it doesn't matter whether it's the same attack or not. This is thematically the same as a Drain vs Power Defense.

 

But you don't resolve knockback before resolving damage. The Dispel removes any KB resistence (the damage), then you resolve Knockback.

 

I can see what you're getting at, but Knockback Resistence is not a defense against Dispel, so I don't think the Drain vs Power Defense is the same sort of construct.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Well blow me down

 

There are some very good ideas here, but the reason I built it with EB initially was so that it wouldn't just take effect against characters. Let me tell you about the three little piggies. One built his house with straw, one with wood and one with brick. The first two were blown down by the big bad wolf: I see this as an attack that could blow down sufficiently flimsy structures, like a hurricane can (coincidentally, or not, Hurricane is the character's name).

 

I don't think that flight or dispel KB (does KB) can fulfil this concept, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. I could build a multipower (EB to damage then one of the others to blow the wreckage away), but it seems like a single power to me 'conceptually'.

 

Any ideas?

[jackalope]

Re: Well blow me down

 

I don't think that flight or dispel KB (does KB) can fulfil this concept' date=' but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. I could build a multipower (EB to damage then one of the others to blow the wreckage away), but it seems like a single power to me 'conceptually'.[/quote']

 

I would go with a multipower then.

 

The Flight and Dispel models can both be used to pick up or knock over inanimate things, but not batter them apart. Likewise an EB can batter things apart, but it can't pick someone up gently.

[Gary]

Re: Well blow me down

 

But you don't resolve knockback before resolving damage. The Dispel removes any KB resistence (the damage), then you resolve Knockback.

 

I can see what you're getting at, but Knockback Resistence is not a defense against Dispel, so I don't think the Drain vs Power Defense is the same sort of construct.

 

 

Regardless of what the rules say; for game balance purposes, I would rule that the KBR affects the initial attack. I don't like loopholes that allows a character to evade the spirit of the rules.

[Kristopher]

Re: Well blow me down

 

When did it become acceptable to use Dispel as a super-cheap ranged Drain?

 

At only 3 pts per die, I only allow Dispel to be used against continuing but non-permanent effects. It's useful for ending spells and removing enchantments, curing Transforms, simulating fire extinguishers, etc. No taking out Foci with Dispel, no using Dispel to take the place of 15pts/die ranged Drains, no using Dispel on Persistent powers, etc.

[jackalope]

Re: Well blow me down

 

When did it become acceptable to use Dispel as a super-cheap ranged Drain?

 

That's not how it's being used. In the example given, it removes any KB Resistance for that attack only. A drain would remove the KB Resistance for much longer than that.

 

No taking out Foci with Dispel, no using Dispel to take the place of 15pts/die ranged Drains, no using Dispel on Persistent powers, etc.

 

Dispel vs Focuses is well-established by precedent in published products, and drain vs focuses makes little or no sense at all.

 

For example, some bricks have a trick called Breaking that functions as dispel vs focused powers. They grab the focus and crush it, and the power is useless until the focus is replaced. A drain wouldn't make any sense, since a drain has a return rate and isn't all-or-nothing. I mean, if I crush your gun in my hand, it makes no sense at all for the gun to be okay again after a few minutes.

 

Also, dispelling Persistent powers is nowhere near as effective as draining them. Dispelled non-focus powers can be turned back on immediately, drained powers cannot be. Dispell is all-or-nothing, drain is incremental.

 

They are very, very different powers, and in many cases dispels make far more sense than drains.

[jackalope]

Re: Well blow me down

 

Regardless of what the rules say; for game balance purposes' date=' I would rule that the KBR affects the initial attack. I don't like loopholes that allows a character to evade the spirit of the rules.[/quote']

 

Okay, well, as a GM that is certainly your perogative, but the actual rules allow for the power.

 

I don't see it as evading the spirit of the rules. I'm not even sure what you mean by that.

[Frenchman]

Re: Well blow me down

 

Working on a 70AP attack, a 14d6 EB would average 47 STUN damage and 7" KB, a 8d6 double KB power would average 28 STUN and 9" KB.

Unless you roll as crappy as I do, I think your math is slightly off here. A 14d6 EB will do 14 body, and the average roll on 2d6 (assuming your target isn't airborn) is 6. 14-6=8. An 8d6 EB 2xKB will do, on average, 8 body, meaning that for KB you have 16-2d6=10, on average. You are still right about the difference being 2", though.

Remember, however, that more knockback gets more and more effective the more dice you put into it. A 7d6 EB deals 1" KB on average, while a 4d6 EB 2xKB deals 2" on average. Whooopdy-doo. A 21d6 EB deals an average of 15" KB, while a 12d6 EB 2xKB deals 18" on average. The higher you go, the higher the difference goes. In the end, I try to target flying opponents at all times to maximize my 2xKB attacks.

Also, when one adds the 2xKB advantage to an attack, the main purpose of the attack shifts slightly from dealing damage to getting them the HELL away from you.

As for Flight UAA, I sigh and shake my head sadly. Jackalope! I've come to expect better from you. As a power construct, this is simply abusive, and while it doesn't outright disallow it in the rulebook, it very, very strongly discourages it (I know that published villains use that power, but that doesn't mean I like it). I would NEVER allow Flight UAA in any of my games, and I would strongly protest it in a game in which I was a player. TK makes much more sense and is more appropriate. In addition, there are some 'defenses' against TK (DI, Clinging, Growth, or just bein' plain fat) and it is possible for some characters to use their STR to resist it by grabbing onto something. Flight UAA doesn't offer any of these opportunities for the victim. It doesn't matter how strong you are or how heavy you are, you just fly away. If the GM rules that grabbing something allows you a STR vs. Flight contest, how much STR does the flight have? certainly not 5 STR per 1", that gives it much more STR than TK has. 1 STR per 1"? Too little. Even then, if you grabbed, say, a semi, the TK might still be able to lift the both of you, but it couldn't throw you as far, whereas the flight can pick all of it up and chuck it the same distance regardless.

The Dispel vs KB, Does KB, 2xKB is pretty cheap, but clever. I'd allow it if I thought my player had come up with it on his own or if they had sufficient justification. I agree with Gary, however, that it does kinda skirt the 'spirit of the rules.'

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Well blow me down

 

Regardless of what the rules say; for game balance purposes' date=' I would rule that the KBR affects the initial attack. I don't like loopholes that allows a character to evade the spirit of the rules.[/quote']

 

The spirit of the rules being that knockback is an effect that must never be effective?

 

It would be easy enough to write the rules to prevent this, and it's been legal for a full edition, so my guess is that it's intentional...

[Gary]

Re: Well blow me down

 

Okay, well, as a GM that is certainly your perogative, but the actual rules allow for the power.

 

I don't see it as evading the spirit of the rules. I'm not even sure what you mean by that.

 

 

The spirit of the rules is that in any compound effect, the effect that affects defenses goes off after the defense works on the attack. Dispel is technically a single power, but there is a compound effect at work.

[Gary]

Re: Well blow me down

 

The spirit of the rules being that knockback is an effect that must never be effective?

 

It would be easy enough to write the rules to prevent this, and it's been legal for a full edition, so my guess is that it's intentional...

 

 

The spirit of the rules being that something that affects a defense goes off after the defense applies.

 

There are tons of things that are 'legal' and where it would be easy enough to write the rules to prevent, but that doesn't mean that it's intentional.

[jackalope]

Re: Well blow me down

 

The spirit of the rules is that in any compound effect' date=' the effect that affects defenses goes off after the defense works on the attack. Dispel is technically a single power, but there is a compound effect at work.[/quote']

 

The defending character does get a defense against the attack, Power Defense, and that defense does work on the attack.

 

I see what you are saying, but I think that the Knockback follows resolution of damage or effect rule should take precedence. This is a single power, and not a compound power.

 

Also, I think it's a really cool design, and not very abusive.

[Gary]

Re: Well blow me down

 

The defending character does get a defense against the attack, Power Defense, and that defense does work on the attack.

 

I see what you are saying, but I think that the Knockback follows resolution of damage or effect rule should take precedence. This is a single power, and not a compound power.

 

Also, I think it's a really cool design, and not very abusive.

 

 

As I said, I'm merely stating my personal POV, regardless of what the rules actually state.

 

As for abusiveness, an attack like this would normally be just a slot in a multipower which would only be brought out when there is a wall for the defender to blast into. This attack averages 17d6, but with moderately lucky knockback dice or against flyers, it can easily do 20+d6 damage.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Well blow me down

 

The spirit of the rules being that something that affects a defense goes off after the defense applies.

 

There are tons of things that are 'legal' and where it would be easy enough to write the rules to prevent, but that doesn't mean that it's intentional.

 

So. Non-persistent defense. The defender get's stunned, then knocked back... against the spirit of the rules to not apply the defenses?

 

What about non-persistent KB resistance?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Well blow me down

 

As I said, I'm merely stating my personal POV, regardless of what the rules actually state.

 

As for abusiveness, an attack like this would normally be just a slot in a multipower which would only be brought out when there is a wall for the defender to blast into. This attack averages 17d6, but with moderately lucky knockback dice or against flyers, it can easily do 20+d6 damage.

 

Actually, that would be "when there is a really tough wall".

[jackalope]

Re: Well blow me down

 

As for abusiveness' date=' an attack like this would normally be just a slot in a multipower which would only be brought out when there is a wall for the defender to blast into. This attack averages 17d6, but with moderately lucky knockback dice or against flyers, it can easily do 20+d6 damage.[/quote']

 

Yeah, but that's going to be true of any Dispel bought with Does Knockback. I mena, most characters aren't going to have KB resistance anyways.

 

I mean, you could build it as like so:

 

Gust of Wind:

Dispel Fire SFX Damage Shields 10d6, Does Knockback (+1/4), Double Knockback (+3/4) (60 Active Points)

Cost: 60

 

And you'd have the same problem.

 

But consider this:

Gust of Wind:

Energy Blast 10d6 (vs. ED), Double Knockback (+3/4); Knockback Only (-1/2) (87 Active Points)

Cost: 58

 

See, not too far off (assuming you agree -1/2 is fair for Knockback Only). Shaves off some AP, so it could be easier fit in a Multipower, but I don't think I'd call it abusive.

[Gary]

Re: Well blow me down

 

So. Non-persistent defense. The defender get's stunned, then knocked back... against the spirit of the rules to not apply the defenses?

 

What about non-persistent KB resistance?

 

 

A non-persistant defense turns off at the end of the segment that the character gets Stunned. Thus a character would get his Force Field defenses applied against any knockback damage from that hit.

 

As for non-persistent KBR, it works the same way as any other non-persistent defense. The KBR would drop at the end of the segment, and wouldn't apply to attacks in any future segment.

[Gary]

Re: Well blow me down

 

Yeah, but that's going to be true of any Dispel bought with Does Knockback. I mena, most characters aren't going to have KB resistance anyways.

 

 

The key word is "most". NNDs are the same way; most characters won't have the defense but some do. I would have a massive problem with a NND where nobody has the defense.