Natural Powers VS equipment question

[Warp9]

What I’m about to suggest may already be covered somewhere, and I’m hoping that some one has already tried it.

 

In considering methods for character generation for my Mimm campaign (see the “Other Genres†forum), I have been looking at the options for equipment.

 

IMO it is more “realistic†to allow characters to pick up equipment without paying points for it. One of the problems with this method is that it cheats those who pay points to have similar natural abilities. But I have an idea to get around that problem.

 

Since you can effectively get the focus for free, why not “spot†the characters the points for the focus, and then just allow the characters to buy off the focus limitation?

 

For example, lets say that there are Radio Ear plugs in my game which allow characters to have Radio Perception through an IIF without paying any points.

 

If the character had to spend his points on a focus, it would look like this:

 

Radio Perception (8 base points) IIF –--- Actual Cost 6 points.

 

(There is a difference of 2 points between the focus and the full ability)

 

Since I’m already “giving away†the 6 points for the focus, I’m suggesting that I allow people who want Radio Perception as a natural ability to get it for 2 points (which is what it would take to buy off the focus limitation).

 

 

Has anybody used this method? If so how did it work out?

[OddHat]

Re: Natural Powers VS equipment question

 

First, that method makes people who want to simulate powers from OAFs pay more than those who want to simulate powers from IIFs, which may or may not have been your intention.

 

Depends on the game, but what do you do when someone comes in and asks to play Red Man, The One Man Swat Team?

 

Uising the method you suggest above, he could have the abilities of the following real world equipment at huge discounts:

Red Man Suit (regular PD and ED armor, a few points resistant)

Full Kevlar Armor (up to around 10 points or so of additional rPD, depending on how you let him layer it).

Shotguns, Grenades, a Flame Thrower, etc, etc, all at significant discounts.

Radio Equipment, Night Vision Goggles, a laptop computer ...

 

Red Man will be monstrously point efficient compared to someone with powers that can't be simulated with real world tech, again depending on how you decide to work it.

 

Personally I've been using a home brew variation of the Resource Points rules from Dark Champions. You can have up to 50 points of "free" real world equipment at any time as a base line, plus 5 points more of real tech equipment for every point you have in Wealth. Want more? Buy a base or vehicle.

[Warp9]

Re: Natural Powers VS equipment question

 

Thanks OddHat, those are all good points.

 

I do have some comments though. . . .

 

First, that method makes people who want to simulate powers from OAFs pay more than those who want to simulate powers from IIFs, which may or may not have been your intention.

That was the intention. IMO a natural ability has a big advantage over an OAF (that type of focus is fairly limiting). On the other hand, there is not that much of a difference between the natural ability and the IIF.

 

 

 

 

Depends on the game, but what do you do when someone comes in and asks to play Red Man, The One Man Swat Team?

 

Uising the method you suggest above, he could have the abilities of the following real world equipment at huge discounts:

Red Man Suit (regular PD and ED armor, a few points resistant)

Full Kevlar Armor (up to around 10 points or so of additional rPD, depending on how you let him layer it).

Shotguns, Grenades, a Flame Thrower, etc, etc, all at significant discounts.

Radio Equipment, Night Vision Goggles, a laptop computer ...

 

Red Man will be monstrously point efficient compared to someone with powers that can't be simulated with real world tech, again depending on how you decide to work it.

Considering that all Red Man's abilities could be gained without spending any points at all, I'm not sure how efficient he really is.

 

If I were playing in such a game, I'd rather spend my points on some kind of abilities that can't be simulated, and then copy all of Red Man's abilities for free.

 

My character would be able to do everything that Red Man can do (with the help of some equipment), plus a whole bunch more stuff that Red Man would have no hope of copying.

 

I think I'd be getting the better deal in that situation.

 

 

 

 

 

Personally I've been using a home brew variation of the Resource Points rules from Dark Champions. You can have up to 50 points of "free" real world equipment at any time as a base line, plus 5 points more of real tech equipment for every point you have in Wealth. Want more? Buy a base or vehicle.

Resource points sound like a cool option, they would definitely be worth considering.

 

When we are talking about 50 points of "free" real world equipment at any time as a base line, is that 50 active points, or 50 real points?

 

I would assume "real" points, but it would make quite a bit of difference if we were talking about active points here.

 

Even though the concept of Resource points is a very good idea, and something which I may use for my game, it still seems like it could cause problems. If a game is going to be more gritty and revolve to a large extent around money and material possessions, then IMO any sort of arbitrary limits can cause problems with game consistancy.

[OddHat]

Re: Natural Powers VS equipment question

 

Considering that all Red Man's abilities could be gained without spending any points at all, I'm not sure how efficient he really is.

 

If I were playing in such a game, I'd rather spend my points on some kind of abilities that can't be simulated, and then copy all of Red Man's abilities for free.

 

My character would be able to do everything that Red Man can do (with the help of some equipment), plus a whole bunch more stuff that Red Man would have no hope of copying.

 

I think I'd be getting the better deal in that situation.

 

"You" (Real Tech Guy) would. I was thinking in terms of Red Man versus a character relying on a Force Field and Ego Attacks, or a brick, or similar powers that can't be had through real tech, rather than Red Man versus the real tech equipped gadgeteer.

The system you are suggesting places a huge cost burden on any character that has powers that could not be described as some variant on real tech personal equipment, making powers that can be had as real tech (4d6 RKAs) far cheaper than powers that can't (6d6 Ego attacks) even when the active point costs are the same. You'll also end up arguing with players over what constitutes real tech personal equipment that can be purchased as a power at a large discount.

All of this is your call, but from a game balance point of view it will make certain power sets much smarter buys in your campaign than others, far more so than in the current system.

 

Resource points sound like a cool option, they would definitely be worth considering.

 

When we are talking about 50 points of "free" real world equipment at any time as a base line, is that 50 active points, or 50 real points?

 

I would assume "real" points, but it would make quite a bit of difference if we were talking about active points here.

 

Even though the concept of Resource points is a very good idea, and something which I may use for my game, it still seems like it could cause problems. If a game is going to be more gritty and revolve to a large extent around money and material possessions, then IMO any sort of arbitrary limits can cause problems with game consistancy.

 

At which point you ignore them. The Common and Dramatic sense rule trumps all. Points are not game world physics; they are a tool for scenario design, a way of keeping things balanced and relatively fair between the players, and a way of letting players and GMs get a quick idea of relative power levels whan looking at characters. If the points get in the way of the story, the GM can always do as he or she likes.

[Warp9]

Re: Natural Powers VS equipment question

 

"You" (Real Tech Guy) would. I was thinking in terms of Red Man versus a character relying on a Force Field and Ego Attacks, or a brick, or similar powers that can't be had through real tech, rather than Red Man versus the real tech equipped gadgeteer.

The system you are suggesting places a huge cost burden on any character that has powers that could not be described as some variant on real tech personal equipment, making powers that can be had as real tech (4d6 RKAs) far cheaper than powers that can't (6d6 Ego attacks) even when the active point costs are the same. You'll also end up arguing with players over what constitutes real tech personal equipment that can be purchased as a power at a large discount.

All of this is your call, but from a game balance point of view it will make certain power sets much smarter buys in your campaign than others, far more so than in the current system.

I was also thinking of a character relying on a Force Field and Ego Attacks, why couldn't he go out and also get some equipment as well? It seems to me that, in a game where PCs can pick up technology for free, everybody is going to be a "real tech equipped gadgeteer" in addition to whatever else they can do. The only guy who is not likely to have night vision goggles is the guy who paid his own points to have night vision.

 

The mentalist could have a nice rifle, kevlar armor, IR goggles, radio equipment, as well as his mental powers. Basically he could do every thing Red Man can do, but without paying any points, plus he'll also have his own mental abilities.

 

Most of the time the mentalist still comes out ahead.

[Gary]

Re: Natural Powers VS equipment question

 

Let's assume that regular equipment can be purchased up to 12 PD/12 ED Armor OIF. Normally that's 36 Active and 24 Real points, so characters would pay 12 pts for "natural" armor under this system.

 

I think something like this can cause significant game balance problems. The system may not be a problem for stuff like the Radio Perception, but for basic stuff that people would normally buy anyway (and defenses qualify), everyone would purchase something like the above.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Natural Powers VS equipment question

 

If and when we eventually see a 6th Ed, I'm hoping Resource Points get incorporated into all genres.

[OddHat]

Re: Natural Powers VS equipment question

 

I was also thinking of a character relying on a Force Field and Ego Attacks, why couldn't he go out and also get some equipment as well? It seems to me that, in a game where PCs can pick up technology for free, everybody is going to be a "real tech equipped gadgeteer" in addition to whatever else they can do. The only guy who is not likely to have night vision goggles is the guy who paid his own points to have night vision.

 

The mentalist could have a nice rifle, kevlar armor, IR goggles, radio equipment, as well as his mental powers. Basically he could do every thing Red Man can do, but without paying any points, plus he'll also have his own mental abilities.

 

Most of the time the mentalist still comes out ahead.

 

In the many situations in a modern game world where the characters can't be seen toting around machine guns, body armor, and night vision goggles I think you will find that Red Man comes out far ahead of the Egoist. For Red Man to ome out a bit ahead of the pure Real Tech Gadgeteer is less of a problem (Red Man paid points, Real Tech Man didn't, and besides Real Tech Man probably sunk points into some nifty Martial Arts and such), but both Red Man and Ego Man paid points for their attacks, and Red Man's were much cheaper DC for DC.

[OddHat]

Re: Natural Powers VS equipment question

 

Let's assume that regular equipment can be purchased up to 12 PD/12 ED Armor OIF. Normally that's 36 Active and 24 Real points, so characters would pay 12 pts for "natural" armor under this system.

 

I think something like this can cause significant game balance problems. The system may not be a problem for stuff like the Radio Perception, but for basic stuff that people would normally buy anyway (and defenses qualify), everyone would purchase something like the above.

 

Fully agreed.

[Warp9]

Re: Natural Powers VS equipment question

 

Let's assume that regular equipment can be purchased up to 12 PD/12 ED Armor OIF. Normally that's 36 Active and 24 Real points, so characters would pay 12 pts for "natural" armor under this system.

 

I think something like this can cause significant game balance problems. The system may not be a problem for stuff like the Radio Perception, but for basic stuff that people would normally buy anyway (and defenses qualify), everyone would purchase something like the above.

Part of the problem here would involve the layering of armor.

 

If you can have your internalized 12PD/12ED and then also get kevlar for free (for a total of +24PD/+24ED) there would be a problem.

 

There would have to be some sort of restriction to stop this kind of thing from happening.

 

The most obvious options to me are:

 

(1) not allow characters to use the option for armor.

 

or

 

(2) have armor layering rules and count the characters with internalized armor as "already armored."

 

 

 

Finally, while the +12 PD / +12 ED armor with an OIF comes out to 24 real points, you forgot to add on some of the other probable limitations such as "real armor" and "mass." With these factored in a character will have more limitations to pay off and will not be able to buy the armor for 12 points.

[Rapier]

Re: Natural Powers VS equipment question

 

Not a CHANCE!

 

 

This would DRASTICALLY overbalance your campaign and shove all the players into a particular archetype. You would be removing much of the control of the players to play the characters they wanted to.

 

Character A has to pay 40 pts for natural Desol because there is no RL counterpart.

 

Character B gets to pay 10 pts for 40 AP of (oh any power, lets say...) Flight because there is some kind of RL jetpack?

 

You will be single handedly throwing out YEARS of work on cost/price balancing that have gone into Hero. Give em an Equipment Ration (a set point level to buy equip with) and let them pay the points for natural abilities. In a heroic game, the players SHOULD be able to aquire new equip through cash, chance (gee, lookee what I found on this table) or chicanery (I'll give you a shiney nickle for that spear, mr simpleminded savage).

Characters with inborn powers are not at a disadvantage against players with similar powers through equip. At least, they shouldn't be. Equipment gets broken, lost, stolen, taken away, used up, etc. Natural powers don't. That is why equip has a focus limitation...and why it is cheaper.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Natural Powers VS equipment question

 

I think you are on the right track but maybe need to approach it differently.

 

Anything bought as a focus, you pay cash for. Anything else, pay points for. If the point based power can be acquired by anyone at anytime, it costs cash as well. If it can only be acquired with certain prereqs (e.g. Magic Skill), then it only costs points and maybe time as well.

 

Guns, flashlights, armor, etc. all cost $

 

Cyberware cost points and cash.

 

Wuxia abilities cost points, but require a talent as a prereq.

Spells cost points, but require magic skill and maybe a talent as well.

 

All things that cost points should be purchased with a cost divisor of 1/3 or 1/5 to represent their actual value in a setting where equipment can often rival those abilities directly (e.g. guns vs. fireball) or offer solutions to a challenge the result in success either way (e.g. gun vs. mind control). This is suggested in FH (e.g. Chaos Blades), and works pretty well. Since everyone can get equipment, that becomes a constant. Most abilities should focus on things that can't be handled by equipment, but even if they do there is value to having something that isn't focus based.

 

I tried out the resource pool in a cpunk game and while it works, it fails a number of reality checks (e.g. 7 pts for a flashlight vs. $2 from WalMart). Yes, offsetting darkness penalties has a measurable game value, but in reality everyone would have a flashlight and would not have spent 7 points for it.

[Warp9]

Re: Natural Powers VS equipment question

 

In the many situations in a modern game world where the characters can't be seen toting around machine guns' date=' body armor, and night vision goggles I think you will find that Red Man comes out far ahead of the Egoist. For Red Man to ome out a bit ahead of the pure Real Tech Gadgeteer is less of a problem (Red Man paid points, Real Tech Man didn't, and besides Real Tech Man probably sunk points into some nifty Martial Arts and such), but both Red Man and Ego Man paid points for their attacks, and Red Man's were much cheaper DC for DC.[/quote']

I would agree about the machine gun thing, but I don't see the huge issue with body armor or night vision goggles. And while you may not be able to bring your machine gun to a dinner party, you could probably hide it in your van (parked right outside).

 

Also the game I'm thinking about running is set in more of a frontier situation, so it is not as much of a factor there anyway.

 

In the end, I'd still go with the egoist. Sure there may be sometimes when he can't copy Red Man's abilities, due to issues with equipment, but Red Man will never be able to copy the Egoist's powers.

[Warp9]

Re: Natural Powers VS equipment question

 

Not a CHANCE!

 

This would DRASTICALLY overbalance your campaign and shove all the players into a particular archetype. You would be removing much of the control of the players to play the characters they wanted to.

I would still go for the character whose powers could not be duplicated technologically. And I'd laugh at all the characters who spend their points to do the things that my character can do for free.

 

 

 

 

Character A has to pay 40 pts for natural Desol because there is no RL counterpart.

 

Character B gets to pay 10 pts for 40 AP of (oh any power, lets say...) Flight because there is some kind of RL jetpack?

If everybody and his dog has a jet pack, then flight is no longer a big deal in that campaign.

 

You are also failing to take into account a number of little limitations which would probably apply to a real-world jet pack which would make it cheaper, so there would be more limitations to buy off in order to get your own flight abilities.

 

 

 

 

 

You will be single handedly throwing out YEARS of work on cost/price balancing that have gone into Hero. Give em an Equipment Ration (a set point level to buy equip with) and let them pay the points for natural abilities. In a heroic game, the players SHOULD be able to aquire new equip through cash, chance (gee, lookee what I found on this table) or chicanery (I'll give you a shiney nickle for that spear, mr simpleminded savage).

Characters with inborn powers are not at a disadvantage against players with similar powers through equip. At least, they shouldn't be. Equipment gets broken, lost, stolen, taken away, used up, etc. Natural powers don't. That is why equip has a focus limitation...and why it is cheaper.

Maybe I haven't been clear enough. I will state things a bit differently:

 

A character who can naturally hear radio much spend his precious character points for the ability. It's unfair to this character for other characters to simply buy a radio with money, thus acquiring the same ability without spending any character points.

 

Do you agree or disagree with the above statement?

[Warp9]

Re: Natural Powers VS equipment question

 

I think you are on the right track but maybe need to approach it differently.

 

Anything bought as a focus, you pay cash for. Anything else, pay points for. If the point based power can be acquired by anyone at anytime, it costs cash as well. If it can only be acquired with certain prereqs (e.g. Magic Skill), then it only costs points and maybe time as well.

 

Guns, flashlights, armor, etc. all cost $

 

Cyberware cost points and cash.

 

Wuxia abilities cost points, but require a talent as a prereq.

Spells cost points, but require magic skill and maybe a talent as well.

 

All things that cost points should be purchased with a cost divisor of 1/3 or 1/5 to represent their actual value in a setting where equipment can often rival those abilities directly (e.g. guns vs. fireball) or offer solutions to a challenge the result in success either way (e.g. gun vs. mind control). This is suggested in FH (e.g. Chaos Blades), and works pretty well. Since everyone can get equipment, that becomes a constant. Most abilities should focus on things that can't be handled by equipment, but even if they do there is value to having something that isn't focus based.

 

I tried out the resource pool in a cpunk game and while it works, it fails a number of reality checks (e.g. 7 pts for a flashlight vs. $2 from WalMart). Yes, offsetting darkness penalties has a measurable game value, but in reality everyone would have a flashlight and would not have spent 7 points for it.

Those sound like some good suggestions.

 

The "All things that cost points should be purchased with a cost divisor of 1/3 or 1/5 to represent their actual value in a setting where equipment can often rival those abilities directly (e.g. guns vs. fireball)" sounds like exactly what I'm looking for.

 

I still think that buying off the limitations might be more mechanically consistant with the Hero System. After all a dependable IIF is very close to a natural ability in most cases, whereas a bulky and obvious focus is far different from a natural ability.

[OddHat]

Re: Natural Powers VS equipment question

 

I would agree about the machine gun thing, but I don't see the huge issue with body armor or night vision goggles. And while you may not be able to bring your machine gun to a dinner party, you could probably hide it in your van (parked right outside).

 

Also the game I'm thinking about running is set in more of a frontier situation, so it is not as much of a factor there anyway.

 

In the end, I'd still go with the egoist. Sure there may be sometimes when he can't copy Red Man's abilities, due to issues with equipment, but Red Man will never be able to copy the Egoist's powers.

 

What stops Red Man from buying X points of super cost efficient semi-gadget powers, and then spending the rest on a big MP filled with whatever he likes?

 

And Red Man is still getting his first 12 points of RPD at a discount when compared with the Egoist, unless the Egoist is getting the same discount on his FF. At that point you might as well just give everyone except Real Tech Only Guy a bunch of extra points.

 

"No points charged for real tech", or a Resource Points system, is much simpler to handle.

[Rapier]

Re: Natural Powers VS equipment question

 

A character who can naturally hear radio much spend his precious character points for the ability. It's unfair to this character for other characters to simply buy a radio with money, thus acquiring the same ability without spending any character points.

 

Do you agree or disagree with the above statement?

I disagree. As a GM it's my job to use and push the characters. I drop EMPer: the Human Electomagnetic Pulse into the game. He unleashes his EMP (the dreaded penetrating RKA only vs tech equip). The poor maligned character who stupidly spent points on HRRP instead of getting it for free sticks his tongue out at the rest of the team and listens to the end of the game.

 

After the battle he gets into his Jaguar that he bought, because he had all that cash left over since he didn't buy any equipment, and drives off with a hot blonde in the passenger seat.

 

Game is balanced.

 

EDIT: That came out really bitchy. Apologies. Just ignore the barbs. I can be a putz.

[Warp9]

Re: Natural Powers VS equipment question

 

What stops Red Man from buying X points of super cost efficient semi-gadget powers, and then spending the rest on a big MP filled with whatever he likes?

 

And Red Man is still getting his first 12 points of RPD at a discount when compared with the Egoist, unless the Egoist is getting the same discount on his FF. At that point you might as well just give everyone except Real Tech Only Guy a bunch of extra points.

 

"No points charged for real tech", or a Resource Points system, is much simpler to handle.

Nothing stops Red Man from spending the rest of his remaining points on other abilities. The problem is that he's already wasted a number of his points on abilities that everybody else can get for free. So he can be a mentalist, but he'll be a weaker mentalist than the other character who spent most of his points on mental abilities.

 

And remember that the radio ear-plug is an extreme example. Most other items have a number of limitations that you'd probably have to also buy off.

 

A gun would probably have: "real weapon," beam weapon, charges, STR min, as well as OAF. In the end, you probably wouldn't get a big discount on this ability. So you'd probably end up spending a big chunck of your points to duplicate things that everybody else can do already (for free).

 

 

 

Yes there are other options: But I am concerned that: "No points charged for real tech" screws over those whose abilities can be copied by others for free.

And it seems like the resoruce points could end up in violation of common sense very easily.

[Warp9]

Re: Natural Powers VS equipment question

 

A character who can naturally hear radio much spend his precious character points for the ability. It's unfair to this character for other characters to simply buy a radio with money, thus acquiring the same ability without spending any character points.

 

Do you agree or disagree with the above statement?

 

I disagree. As a GM it's my job to use and push the characters. I drop EMPer: the Human Electomagnetic Pulse into the game. He unleashes his EMP (the dreaded penetrating RKA only vs tech equip). The poor maligned character who stupidly spent points on HRRP instead of getting it for free sticks his tongue out at the rest of the team and listens to the end of the game.

 

After the battle he gets into his Jaguar that he bought, because he had all that cash left over since he didn't buy any equipment, and drives off with a hot blonde in the passenger seat.

 

Game is balanced.

 

EDIT: That came out really bitchy. Apologies. Just ignore the barbs. I can be a putz.

No problem with the barbs.

 

You do realize that was a direct quote from the Hero 5th Edition Rules Book that you are disagreeing with right? (It comes from page 13 on my book, under the heading "Super-Heroic" Campaigns)

 

Not that you can't disagree with the rule book, but just so you realize what you are disagreeing with.

[OddHat]

Re: Natural Powers VS equipment question

 

Nothing stops Red Man from spending the rest of his remaining points on other abilities. The problem is that he's already wasted a number of his points on abilities that everybody else can get for free. So he can be a mentalist, but he'll be a weaker mentalist than the other character who spent most of his points on mental abilities.

 

And remember that the radio ear-plug is an extreme example. Most other items have a number of limitations that you'd probably have to also buy off.

 

A gun would probably have: "real weapon," beam weapon, charges, STR min, as well as OAF. In the end, you probably wouldn't get a big discount on this ability. So you'd probably end up spending a big chunck of your points to duplicate things that everybody else can do already (for free).

 

 

 

Yes there are other options: But I am concerned that: "No points charged for real tech" screws over those whose abilities can be copied by others for free.

And it seems like the resoruce points could end up in violation of common sense very easily.

 

At this point I'm no longer sure exactly what you're looking for in-game.

 

1) Red Man is till geting a free 30 points on a power (15 rPD) that Ego Man must pay full points for, under the rule set you have described. That does alter game balance from a cost efficiency POV, and your players will realize it. Yes, Ego Man can buy a flak jacket, but then so can Red Man.

2) Yes, you can house rule around all of this step by step, but it would be much simpler for you and your players to just use one house rule ("Real tech is free" or "The first 60 points of real tech are free") then to set up a complex case by case system. Easier to fix later as well, should you see problems.

3) You're the GM. If a rule conflicts with common sense, you can just let common sense win. That's already built into the rules.

[Rapier]

Re: Natural Powers VS equipment question

 

You do realize that was a direct quote from the Hero 5th Edition Rules Book that you are disagreeing with right? (It comes from page 13 on my book, under the heading "Super-Heroic" Campaigns)

 

Not that you can't disagree with the rule book, but just so you realize what you are disagreeing with.

1) Steve would be the first to agree that "to each his own, and ignore what you don't like."

 

2) You are taking the quote out of context. That quote was, in particular, regarding SuperHeroic campaigns. In a superheroic campaign, all powers must be paid for with points. That quote was used to explain why that is so in superheroic games. Your quote is entirely misplaced and off-point. In this thread, since you are talking about equipment allowances and money (neither of which are pertinent to superheroic games) you are talking about a heroic game.

 

In a heroic game, players can either spend resource points or cash to purchase equipment (foci based) or they can spend character points for natural powers. The character with inborn powers should, rightly, pay points for his powers since they exist internally and cannot be removed easily.

 

Characters spend cash and resource points on equipment, knowing full well that the equipment can be removed very easily. This is the draw back. Sure you spend your cash (in a point for point comparison this makes the HRRP Helmet FREE as opposed to the natural HRRP of RadioMan) on something, but it doesn't mean that the natural character can't use that money for something else...it isn't a trade. You don't have to choose x of equipment or x of powers. You get x points and spend them wherever you want. The guy with natural HRRP will have all that extra money lying around...maybe he buys a better flak jacket.

 

I also think you are going at equipment vs natural powers the wrong way. Instead of thinking of Natural HRRP as "a walkie talkie without all the limitations," you should think of the walkie talkie as "natural HRRP with all the limitations." Having a physical device in your hand that is breakable, stealable etc, is a disadvantage. That is why focus is a limitation. There are going to be times when that piece of equipment is unavailable.

 

I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, what you are suggesting is removing the cost of the base power entirely, ala:

 

Equipment: 10" Flight (20 Active Points), -1/2 OIF JetPack, etc (for a total of -1 in lims), Total Cost: 10 Points (character spends 10 CPs worth of resources or cash)

 

Natural: 10" Flight (20 Active Points) Total Cost: 10 Points (Active Points - Real Cost of similar equipment)

 

In this case, the guy with natural flight is going to get the beneift of the cost break (as if it was equipment) without any of the limiting factors. How is that fair to the Equipment Guy?

 

Each character has the same CPs (eg 100 base + 100 disads + 100 points of equipment). At the end of the day, the natural guy will end up with 350 points since he got the cost breaks for having natural powers. Equipment Guy will have 300, since all of his powers were purchased as equipment.

 

If you want to scale things and say all equipment is 1/3 the cost or all powers are 1/3 the cost that is marginally better, but even then it will be unbalancing. Someone who wants to play a character with no equipment would get a pt break and a character with only equipment would not. This would give the nautral character an advantage. Not a lot of fun for someone who wants to play a batman type with nothing but wonderful toys. He is always going to be less capable than the natural guy. The reverse is also true.

 

The rules, when used as is, in this case, lead to well balanced characters. My heroic game started with 75 base + 75 disads + 75 equipment. Some characters dumped all their "powers" into equipment, some dumped them all into Powers, some dumped a little here and a little there.

 

At the end of the day...all the characters are roughly equal, with similar power levels and are built on the same number of points. The only time 1 character has an advantage over another is when the situation is appropriate for that character's concept...as it should be.

[JmOz]

Re: Natural Powers VS equipment question

 

I would sugest something a little radical:

 

Make it a superheroic campeign, increase the points and make people buy equipment with points. Strongly suggest VPP's for equipment

[Warp9]

Re: Natural Powers VS equipment question

 

At this point I'm no longer sure exactly what you're looking for in-game.

 

1) Red Man is till geting a free 30 points on a power (15 rPD) that Ego Man must pay full points for, under the rule set you have described. That does alter game balance from a cost efficiency POV, and your players will realize it. Yes, Ego Man can buy a flak jacket, but then so can Red Man.

 

You'll have to explain that further.

 

First, I don't see how the example of 15rPD adds up to 30 free points. At best you'd have +15PD +15ED Armor, which is a 45 point power, but the real cost will be much less when you add in all the relevant limitations: OIF, "Real Armor," and Weight. Even assuming the 1/2 weight of Kevlar, or PlastiSteel, that would all total to -1 1/4 limitation. That would be a real cost of 20 points. Which would mean that Red Man would have to pay 25 points and get only 20 points for free.

 

 

 

Second, it sounds like you are saying that Red Man would get free points on a power that Ego man would have to pay full points for, I never said such a thing.

 

I assume what you meant was that Red Man would get discount on his powers while Ego man would have to pay full points for his (differnt) set of powers. That is true, but considering that everybody else already has all Red Man's abilities for free, Red Man's abilities are not worth that much. The only advantage that Red Man has is that in some specific circumstances, where everybody else can't use their equipment, Red Man will have a chance to shine (but that will be a fairly limited range of situations).

 

And again, I'd still go with the mentalist.

 

 

 

 

 

Third, your comment: "Yes, Ego Man can buy a flak jacket, but then so can Red Man," has already been dealt with in my response to Gary. Armor could be a problem because you could get points on natural armor for free, and then still also buy it for cash. As I already said to Gary, you'd either have to disallow this option for armor, or have some sort of armor layering rules, and count people with natural armor as "already armored."

[OddHat]

Re: Natural Powers VS equipment question

 

You'll have to explain that further.

 

First, I don't see how the example of 15rPD adds up to 30 free points. At best you'd have +15PD +15ED Armor, which is a 45 point power, but the real cost will be much less when you add in all the relevant limitations: OIF, "Real Armor," and Weight. Even assuming the 1/2 weight of Kevlar, or PlastiSteel, that would all total to -1 1/4 limitation. That would be a real cost of 20 points. Which would mean that Red Man would have to pay 25 points and get only 20 points for free.

 

 

 

Second, it sounds like you are saying that Red Man would get free points on a power that Ego man would have to pay full points for, I never said such a thing.

 

I assume what you meant was that Red Man would get discount on his powers while Ego man would have to pay full points for his (differnt) set of powers. That is true, but considering that everybody else already has all Red Man's abilities for free, Red Man's abilities are not worth that much. The only advantage that Red Man has is that in some specific circumstances, where everybody else can't use their equipment, Red Man will have a chance to shine (but that will be a fairly limited range of situations).

 

And again, I'd still go with the mentalist.

 

 

 

 

 

Third, your comment: "Yes, Ego Man can buy a flak jacket, but then so can Red Man," has already been dealt with in my response to Gary. Armor could be a problem because you could get points on natural armor for free, and then still also buy it for cash. As I already said to Gary, you'd either have to disallow this option for armor, or have some sort of armor layering rules, and count people with natural armor as "already armored."

 

1) 15 PD/15 ED Armor = 45 active points. Under the scheme you have suggested, Red Man only pays 15 points (the 15 saved by the OIF). If Ego Man wants a 15 PD/15 ED Force Field, he has to pay a full 45 points for it. Red Man just got 30 points for free.

 

2) Even talking about different powers, (Redman's Armor versus some other defensive power for Ego Man), as things are powers are meant to be balanced against one another. Your idea scraps that (imperfect) balance in favor of case by case calls on every power. There are much simpler ways to handle it.

 

3) In your third response, you add a house rule to fix a house rule, something you will be doing a lot of if you want this scheme to work. Your game and all, but when there are much cleaner, easier ways to work it, why bother?

[OddHat]

Re: Natural Powers VS equipment question

 

I would sugest something a little radical:

 

Make it a superheroic campeign, increase the points and make people buy equipment with points. Strongly suggest VPP's for equipment

 

Yes, that works as well.