Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

[Rapier]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

In my own opinion, the frequency would still be always, even with a compensating different natured sense (like super human hearing or sonar) - you are still always not able to pick up visual only cues. The severity of how limiting this is to you however is something I am not clear on. You do have a total lack of that sense, but you are not totally sensory disabled. But then, even without a compensating sense you are not totally sensorilly disabled.

 

In both cases, you are totally lacking something that does a lot of what vision does, but in the super sense case you do have something else that does some of the major tasks you would use vision for.

 

Unclear for the final call for me still.

The question is not how often is DD blind. The question is how often does his blindness affect him in game. Considering his other senses, IMO only infrequently.

 

The next question to ask is how much of an effect is it. On those infrequent occassions when his blindness is an issue, how much of an effect is it? Greatly? Slightly? IMO, in those cases where his blindness becomes an issue (eg hearing flash attack, needing to read a printed page) he is greatly disadvantaged.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

But when the player puts "Vulnerability: x2 STUN from Blue Meteorites" on his character sheet' date=' and the GM doesn't even question it, and then it never comes up in play, who is at fault?[/quote']

 

I have no interest in assigning blame. I am interested in playing the game enjoyably, fairly, and well.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

IMO' date=' in those cases where his blindness becomes an issue (eg hearing flash attack, needing to read a printed page) he is greatly disadvantaged.[/quote']

 

With regard to Daredevil, I have not seen him significantly limited by his blindness in a long, long time. But I do not really follow the comic, so who knows. A more relevant question is how much will it limit a specific character who has Enhanced Senses. The only people who can answer that are the players involved in that specific campaign, which makes the question moot.

[Kristopher]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

I have no interest in assigning blame. I am interested in playing the game enjoyably, fairly, and well.

 

You missed the point.

 

You can talk about "how the HERO system works" and Disads that never come up in game being worth no points, but that doesn't mean it won't happen. If there's a Vulnerability to Blue Meteorites for 20 CP on a character, and there won't ever be any blue meteorites in the game, something went wrong.

 

Now, if I take a Disad on a PC that my GM could easily work into play, but he never does, I don't want to hear haughty comments about how I "don't get any points for it."

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

I don't want to hear haughty comments about how I "don't get any points for it."

 

You are entitled to want what you want, of course. I am just telling you how the game works: a disad that doesn't limit the character isn't worth any points. That's how the game works.

[Kristopher]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

You are entitled to want what you want, of course. I am just telling you how the game works: a disad that doesn't limit the character isn't worth any points. That's how the game works.

 

Yeah, you said that already, at least once. There are very few people reading this thread who don't already know that that is how the game is supposed to work. But thanks for repeating it a few times just in case someone didn't know.

 

Nice in theory, and all that. So what?

 

People disagree about how frequent and limiting a Disad will be. Acting in good faith, players sometimes put Disads and Limits on the sheet that could come up, but that the GM never gets time or opporunity to work into the campaign.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

No' date=' but he doesn't get a disad for it. To make it even clearer, if your character takes extra damage from glowing blue meteorites, and glowing blue meteorites never show up in the game, you character doesn't get any points. That's simply the way Hero works.[/quote']

 

The trouble with this approach is it looks backward: the player doesn't know the frequency of glowing blue meterorites (BGMs) until after the character has been designed and in play for some time. You may take the approach 'well, I'll have those points back then' or 'you need to re-assign them', but then you are penalising the character/player, and given that disadvantages can be as defining to a characetr as powers, I don't like to have a character change in this way unless it really is necessary. I would assume that GMs approve characters for play in their games and, in doing so look at the character sheets. If they are never going to have BGMs in game, fine, tell the player and let them change the disadvantage. If they intend to have BGMs but never get round to it, well, IMO them's the breaks. A decent player would maybe discuss this with the GM at some point, but given that they are not running the game they can not enforce their own disadvantages, at least not this sort of disadvantage

 

The no disadvantage=no points rule can only apply if it is known in advance that it will not be a disadvantage. Look to the comics: certain well established characters have disadvantages that can go for years without coming up. Then a new writer will read the back notes and suddenly Green Lantern is getting hit by yellow bullets, Wonder Woman is getting tied up, and Superman is getting kryptonited. You might go 20 sessions without so much as a sniff of BGMs, then all of a sudden Hydra discovers they can be used as a power source and every Hydra base has one. The frequency of the disadvantage is an average, and avarages can have some pretty funny distribution curves.

 

Complete aside, but funny how this sort of disadvantage seems to crop up far more in DC than Marvel. I know there are examples, but it obviously reflects either a different design philosophy, or the fact that DC tends to have uber-powered heroes that need an achilles heel.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

Actually this is an interesting point. Arcady mentioned that blindness, even with a compensating sense, is all the time. This makes a great deal of sense: you will almost constantly run into things you can't do if you can't see (writing this would be difficult, for example) BUT generally those things will be an inconvenience.

 

Now occasionally not being able to see will be greatly limiting (when you are in an area that you can't use your enhanced senses in, for example, which wouldn't effect a normally sighted person at all).

 

We have, in effect, two levels of disadvantage for the one problem. How do you deal with that? Take some sort of average? Plump for one? Take both? This is probably the root cause of the confusion: it is NOT just at one level.

 

Bit of an aside, but it might be good practice to require players to give examples of the use of disadvantages. I've seen a DD comic where he was practically blind when it rained or at least had his senses massively attenuated, but in the film (which I liked, BTW) he used rain to add definitition to his enhanced senses. Ultimately the same disadvantage in two different campaigns is likely to have very different practical applications.

[arcady]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

Complete aside, but funny how this sort of disadvantage seems to crop up far more in DC than Marvel. I know there are examples, but it obviously reflects either a different design philosophy, or the fact that DC tends to have uber-powered heroes that need an achilles heel.

DC may have the more powerful characters, but it also has the more human characters.

 

The cast of X-cashcows, love them though I do, are about as real as the cast of 'Real Life' on MTV crossed with Days our Lives. That's par for the course at Marvel.

 

DC by contrast often has a lot more issues based characters and human drama that has consequence - such as Mia on Green Arrow who has recently been shown to be HIV positive. She's part of a tradition at DC in the way they do characters.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

DC may have the more powerful characters, but it also has the more human characters.

 

The cast of X-cashcows, love them though I do, are about as real as the cast of 'Real Life' on MTV crossed with Days our Lives. That's par for the course at Marvel.

 

DC by contrast often has a lot more issues based characters and human drama that has consequence - such as Mia on Green Arrow who has recently been shown to be HIV positive. She's part of a tradition at DC in the way they do characters.

 

I think it is down to writers a lot of the time, rather than characters. X-Men the Chris Claremont Years was often a labour of love with some very interesting character interaction, layered on many levels, but then that is what you get if you have one person writing the book for so long. Jean/Scott/Wolverine/Rogue/Kittty/Peter: a love hexagon? Kind of appropriate for Hero...

 

Spiderman...well, OK maybe he was a little over the top at times. What about DareDevil? there were some very nice and very human stories told there.

 

Of course Marvel had the Legacy Virus, which always seemed to be a HIV analogue anyway...strikes at minorities, crossing over into the majority population, completely unnecessary and inappropriate moral conclusions drawn from having it...

 

I won't get into which company is better. I tend to read 2000AD, Hellblazer and anything by Paul Grist at present, so go figure....

[Phil]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

Normal sight is worth 32 points as a sense. Why not buy that back and forget about the Physical Limitation?

 

I've often thought this should be the standard approach. As you say, you can use this to sell off STR or Running, why not senses. This then removes senses entirely from the realms of physical limitation - as well as Cant Walk and other physical lims that can be better replicated through the power / characteristic mechanics.

 

Put an extra space on the character sheet for senses, to make this quite explicit. Removes any hassle and any queries.

[Phil]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

If ElfMan has a susceptability to iron' date=' is it his fault if the GM never uses it? I can't be expected as a player to say, 'I'm going to go lick an iron post, just to validate my susceptability.'[/quote']

 

Torg took an interesting approach to this. Powers cost around 3-6 points every adventure just to have them. Limitations would then earn you points to offset against this cost, but only if the limitation was activated. This way, all limitations were worth the same number of points, but clearly if they were activated more often, you got more direct benefit. Entirely removes the frequency puzzle from the equation.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

I've often thought this should be the standard approach. As you say, you can use this to sell off STR or Running, why not senses. This then removes senses entirely from the realms of physical limitation - as well as Cant Walk and other physical lims that can be better replicated through the power / characteristic mechanics.

 

Put an extra space on the character sheet for senses, to make this quite explicit. Removes any hassle and any queries.

 

 

Not to argue against myself (but I will anyway...) I suppose senses are left off the character sheet because otherwise the cost of a 'normal' could run to many hundreds of points if you included everything (what would digestive juices be worth? DO NOT ANSWER THAT!).

 

Still, buying off the sense seems best. If you want to you can do it as part of the character (like you would with buying off running - in which case it will not substantially effect the points you have to spend) or you can include it as a limitation (Missing Sense: 32 points), in which case it will. Whatever makes you happiest.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

The trouble with this approach is it looks backward: the player doesn't know the frequency of glowing blue meterorites (BGMs) until after the character has been designed and in play for some time.

 

Well, in theory, the person making up the character is part of a group that gets together and role-plays, so there is plenty of opportunity to say, "Hey gang, what do you suppose this ought to be worth? I was thinking 'Infrequently, Greatly'. Sound about right?"

 

This is pretty much a non-issue.

 

If they intend to have BGMs but never get round to it' date=' well, IMO them's the breaks.[/quote']

 

That happens, obviously. It's not something to lose any sleep over, and things like "moderate", "greatly", "infrequently", etc., are all just approximations, anyway. It's a game, not a doctoral thesis.

 

Complete aside' date=' but funny how this sort of disadvantage seems to crop up far more in DC than Marvel.[/quote']

 

I think it has to do with when the character was created. At a certain time, having a weakness like Kryptonite was a staple of the genre. It's part of the superhero genre's pulp-cliffhanger roots.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

Well' date=' in theory, the person making up the character is part of a group that gets together and role-plays, so there is plenty of opportunity to say, "Hey gang, what do you suppose this ought to be worth? I was thinking 'Infrequently, Greatly'. Sound about right?"[/quote']

 

This assumes your group has an "opne disclosure" policy. I don't see a need, or a benefit, to having each character's abilities and weaknesses known to everyone in the group. Supers don't know al of each o0thers' abilities or disadvantages.

 

Do you think your phrasing sounds right used as follows?

 

"Hey gang, what do you suppose 'Psych - secretive to the point of paranoia' ought to be worth? I was thinking 'Infrequently, Greatly'. Sound about right?"

 

"Hey gang, what do you suppose Brainwashed - must follow orders of VIPER nest leader' ought to be worth? I was thinking 'Infrequently, Greatly'. Sound about right?"

 

"Hey gang, what do you suppose 'Social Limit: Secret - gathered team for the Mutant Massacre' ought to be worth? I was thinking 'Infrequently, Greatly'. Sound about right?"

 

None of these are items which the other characters should be aware of. Speaking for myself, I prefer to discover the other characters' backgrounds, personalities, abilities, etc. in the course of play, not get a stat sheet at the start of the campaign. How does my character know whether or not Mighty Man has a secret ID, much less who it is, unless he chooses to tel me, or I somehow discover it myself?

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

I don't see a need' date=' or a benefit, to having each character's abilities and weaknesses known to everyone in the group. Supers don't know al of each o0thers' abilities or disadvantages.[/quote']

 

You are confusing the characters with the players. Besides, it'll make it kind of hard to run a game if you can't see the players' character sheets, don't you think?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

Related to the frequency of disadvantages, what about disadvantages whose frequency will change? Vulberable to Sonics - normally a pretty rare attack form, but I as GM know I'm putting an arc related to the beings who built Howler's artifact in place to start the second or third game session, so sonics will be pretty common. But after that arc is over, I may use these beings as recurring adversaries, or I may never use them again. Who knows at "Issue 1" what the dynamic will be at "Issue #100"? How do you assess how "common" this is without full knowledge of every character in the campaign, and how often each will be encountered?

 

Bottom line: you can't. So you go with "how common is this special effect" and run the campaign using characters you feel to be interesting and appropriate. If that means one guy's vulnerabilities come up a little more often, that comes down to luck of the draw. If someone else's never seem to come up, make a conscious effort to bring them into play. If it's been two years sinnce Supes encountered Kryptonite, bet on a writer bringing it in again.

 

Similarly, if the campaign takes Our Heroes out of the regular campaign universe for an extended story arc for an extended period, their DNPC's, Hunted's and Secret ID's won't see much use for that period. One could argue that, on their return, every Hunted should show up attacking every DNPC in fashions compromising to Secret ID's, but I'd rather my players were a bit less able to predict when their disad's will rear their handsome heads.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

If that means one guy's vulnerabilities come up a little more often' date=' that comes down to luck of the draw. If someone else's never seem to come up, make a conscious effort to bring them into play.[/quote']

 

That strikes me as a fair way to handle it. After all, if a player spends a lot of points on their character being a super-detective, it would be nice if they got to do some detecting from time to time. It's the same sort of thing.

 

Also, if you have a worthwhile game group with a number of players who are competent GMs (and if not, you should look for another one), it's pretty easy to cover all the bases, Disads-wise. Over the course of a year, someone is bound to run a story arc that will address most any Disad, at one point or another. If something slips through the cracks, heck, it's not like anyone is going to die. You do the best you can in good faith.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

Also' date=' if you have a worthwhile game group with a number of players who are competent GMs (and if not, you should look for another one), it's pretty easy to cover all the bases, Disads-wise. Over the course of a year, someone is bound to run a story arc that will address most any Disad, at one point or another. If something slips through the cracks, heck, it's not like anyone is going to die. You do the best you can in good faith.[/quote']

 

This depends on wether you run multi-GM in one campaign or each GM to his own campaign. We've historically leaned to the latter, since it prevents one GM's planning being demolished by another GM's scenario.

[Kristopher]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

I've never been in a multi-GM campaign. The closest I've come is a group in which another GM and I ran two different campaigns on alternating weeks.

 

And really, I wouldn't want anything to do with a multi-GM campaign, unless both GMs were engaged in a lot of cooperative effort between games to make sure that they were always on the same page week to week.

 

As for other players seeing the character sheets and knowing all the secrets and powers and disads of each other's characters...no thank you. It's FAR more satisfying if those things come out in play. There was an instance when I accidentally (and I stress that is was accidental) saw an NPC sheet with some notes on it, and it spoiled a major surprise for me. I never told any of the other players or the GM anything about it, and played as if I didn't know as best I could, but finding out in the game would have been so much better.

[Kristopher]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

This assumes your group has an "opne disclosure" policy. I don't see a need, or a benefit, to having each character's abilities and weaknesses known to everyone in the group. Supers don't know al of each o0thers' abilities or disadvantages.

 

Do you think your phrasing sounds right used as follows?

 

"Hey gang, what do you suppose 'Psych - secretive to the point of paranoia' ought to be worth? I was thinking 'Infrequently, Greatly'. Sound about right?"

 

"Hey gang, what do you suppose Brainwashed - must follow orders of VIPER nest leader' ought to be worth? I was thinking 'Infrequently, Greatly'. Sound about right?"

 

"Hey gang, what do you suppose 'Social Limit: Secret - gathered team for the Mutant Massacre' ought to be worth? I was thinking 'Infrequently, Greatly'. Sound about right?"

 

None of these are items which the other characters should be aware of. Speaking for myself, I prefer to discover the other characters' backgrounds, personalities, abilities, etc. in the course of play, not get a stat sheet at the start of the campaign. How does my character know whether or not Mighty Man has a secret ID, much less who it is, unless he chooses to tel me, or I somehow discover it myself?

 

You are confusing the characters with the players. Besides, it'll make it kind of hard to run a game if you can't see the players' character sheets, don't you think?

 

He's not confusing anything.

 

The only person who needs to see all the PC sheets is the GM. The players can share and not share as they see fit. I've never had another player demand to see my character sheet, and I'd quit any group that accepted such demands as reasonable.

 

In each of the examples Hugh gave, making them public knowledge would pretty much ruin any impact they could have later in the game.

 

RPGing isn't putting on a play, where everyone has read the script and knows the outcome, and is mainly concerned with flexing their acting skills. Part of the fun is in being surprised right along with your character.

 

"Wow Joe, you really pulled off your character's shock at finding out that my character was a VIPER agent. I almost believed that you didn't find out when we shared character sheets before the first session."

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

He's not confusing anything.

 

Your response is better than mine likely would have ben. Thanks.

[Rapier]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

This assumes your group has an "opne disclosure" policy. I don't see a need' date=' or a benefit, to having each character's abilities and weaknesses known to everyone in the group. Supers don't know al of each o0thers' abilities or disadvantages. [/quote']

I'm with you on this one. My group has never had open disclosure. My very first Champions character was bigotted against mutants (slightly not the whole KKK/Mutant Apocolypse type). This went on for a long time. Half the team thought he was just snooty and the other half thought he just had 'issues.'

 

But I got to admit, one of my favourite bits in the Animated Justice League was when they were in the alternate earth and were running from the cops. They were going to have to dump the super suits and Flash was all "But what about our Secret IDs?" and WonderWoman just outted everyone. PRICELESS.

[Rapier]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

Related to the frequency of disadvantages' date=' what about disadvantages whose frequency will change? Vulberable to Sonics - normally a pretty rare attack form, but I as GM know I'm putting an arc related to the beings who built Howler's artifact in place to start the second or third game session, so sonics will be pretty common. But after that arc is over, I may use these beings as recurring adversaries, or I may never use them again. Who knows at "Issue 1" what the dynamic will be at "Issue #100"? How do you assess how "common" this is without full knowledge of every character in the campaign, and how often each will be encountered?[/quote']

Exactically!! I have a player that thought she was getting off lightly because some of her disads/lim hadn't ever really come into play. Course, the timeline I had written down was that in another 15 games or so that was going to change to where her disads/lims were going to get SLAMMED for a good half dozen adventures.

 

If we look back over the period of time the character was in play, the average should come out right, not the game to game total.

[Rapier]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

I've never been in a multi-GM campaign. The closest I've come is a group in which another GM and I ran two different campaigns on alternating weeks.

 

And really, I wouldn't want anything to do with a multi-GM campaign, unless both GMs were engaged in a lot of cooperative effort between games to make sure that they were always on the same page week to week.

My first GMing of Champions was splitting a campaign setting. My regular GM liked the standard 4-colour DC, boy scout type setting; while I was more into the gritty, true life sometimes life really sucks Marvel settings (the Marvel/DC descriptors were circa 1992 when all this took place). Obviously we couldn't have it both ways.

 

So, in the best traditions of comicdom, we split the world in two. He took North America and I took Europe and Asia. Europe and Asia were amok with the various Mutant Hunters and the US was calm and quiet with the supers being accepted as normal.

 

Even then, we had some problems with crossover and a few arguments here and there. I cannot imagine what would have happened if we had actually co-GMed a campaign. It would really suck to be a player since you would always have to have some kind of idea of what the GM was planning.