Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

[arcady]

If a character, such as Daredevil, has a physical disadvantage which is then mostly compensated for by some other ability do they still get the disad?

 

I'm thinking yes, but I can see counter arguments as well.

 

Phys: Blind is 25 points - all the time total imparement.

 

Getting a sense like Daredevil has would be

Detect - audio, targeting, 360 degrees, passive sense.

 

What he's lost is the ability to actually see, and thus does not get certain details.

 

Daredevil might be an extreme case from his sonar. Is there a difference if the compensating sense doesn't give color, shape, or perhaps non moving objects? Imagine someone who simply had hyper-hearing (passive targeting sense) to the point of being able to sense any motion, even an arrow or bullet (as most bullets are slower than sound), but could not sense something giving off no sound - such as a wall? Is this character still 'Phys: Blind' or just blind?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

Yes, he rates the PhysLim. If his powers are ever interfered with, he is still blind afterall. Further, lacking sight, all of his Enhanced Sense will be unable to use the Simulated Sense Rule for the Sight Group, making them all more expensive in theory.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

He gets the Physical Limitation: Totally Blind in my opinion.

 

He still can't see colors, see through a transparent barrier, or watch a movie. There are a lot of problems with being blind beyond combat.

 

The fact he has to pay CP to buy a superpower in order to function reasonably well doesn't negate the fact he can't see.

[Rapier]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

He gets a PhysLim but it is Infrequently, Greatly since he has a compensating sense.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

He gets a PhysLim but it is Infrequently' date=' Greatly since he has a compensating sense.[/quote']I disagree that it is Infrequent in occurence. He's always blind, as opposed to somebody that has an Infrequent Lim such as a trick knee. Daredevil's blindness is still Frequent. It's not All the Time only because he's bought compensating senses.

[Rapier]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

I disagree that it is Infrequent in occurence. He's always blind' date=' as opposed to somebody that has an Infrequent Lim such as a trick knee. Daredevil's blindness is still Frequent. It's not All the Time only because he's bought compensating senses.[/quote']

Yes, he is always blind. But with his compensating sense, his blindness is only (IMO) infrequently a disadvantage. The only time he is truly 'blind' is when there is no sound in the room. But 6 of 1, it does come down to a judgement call.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

I've seen this topic on the boards several times before. IIRC Steve Long gave an official ruling on this once (I'll check the FAQ when it's not so late).

 

In any case, I would say that the Limitation would apply (the person can't perceive details, read signs, etc.) but the frequency and severity would be reduced. This follows a principle that seems to be pretty widely accepted in the HERO community: if you have a Disadvantage that would normally be worth a certain amount, but you have access to an ability/gizmo that can overcome that Disad in certain circumstances, the Disad is less limiting and would cost less.

 

If you think about how a character like Daredevil would compare to a hypothetical hero with the same hyper-senses but fully sighted, or with a normal blind person, I think how this would fall out becomes clearer. Daredevil is vastly more functional than a normal blind man; his disability does impair him, but usually not to a great degree compared to a non-super. Daredevil is rarely portrayed as any less capable than a sighted superhero. OTOH when comparing him to our exemplar "sighted super-sense guy," Daredevil is still getting an additional point benefit from the Disad even though both characters had to pay the same amount for the same enhanced senses.

 

A person with hyper-senses but functional sight could still have those hyper-senses neutralized in the same ways that Daredevil's could be, losing the advantage they give him. Granted, the result would likely be more severe for Daredevil, but someone thinking to use such a tactic would have to know about his heightened senses and the fact that he is blind, which is very uncommon knowledge. Hence the situation seldom arises, i.e. the major detriment from the Disad doesn't come into play very often.

 

You should feel free to disagree in a calm and reasoned manner.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

If a character' date=' such as Daredevil, has a physical disadvantage which is then mostly compensated for by some other ability do they still get the disad?[/quote']

 

Yes, but it's only worth 5 points (Infrequently, Slightly Impairing).

[JmOz]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

I would allow it at full points or the amounts of active points spent to negate it, whichever is less, reduced to a divisible of 5.

 

So in otherwords if you want to take No Arms, but have 2 Prehensive tails (5 points, my games extra limbs is considered inherent) then you get 5 points back (Essentialy the two cancel each other out, but now you have a few less disad points)

 

So with blind and having Radar sense (15 points IIRC), you would get a 15 point Phys Lim

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

Yes' date=' but it's only worth 5 points (Infrequently, Slightly Impairing).[/quote']

 

Potential situations where a "classid DD's" blindness would affect him, off the top of my head:

 

- DD battles agents who bite down on cyanide capsules after soliliquy'ing a slogan. His secret ID meets a client in a boardroom. The company's slogan is in a framed picture on the wall - and it's the statement the agents died to.

 

- DD wants to find a witness to a crime he halted last night. How does he describe the witness? Hair colour, skin colour, clothing colour are all unknown.

 

- From across the room, the injured bomb squad member asks DD how much time is left on the digital timer on the bomb.

 

- The same bomb squad member tells DD all he has to do is cut the green wire - NOT the red wire.

 

- DD needs to get a football player off the field because there's an assassin in the stands. No problem, DD - he's #78.

 

- DD is questioning local businessmen. In the business he stands in, the founder's picture is on the wall. This particular "businessman" is also an underworld figure, unbeknownst to the general public. Too bad DD can't see the picture!

 

- DD is facing off against an enemy with a lightning bolt motif on his headgear. Hmmm...is it The Amazing Darkon (black lightning bolt; will start with Darkness which is no danger) or ElectroMan (will likely fire off a 1 hex area bolt; better dive for cover)?

 

- Reporter: "Hmmm...DD acted as if that sight flash didn't even exist. COould be be blind? That narrows the scope of posible secret ID's."

 

- Reporter: "Let's make sure. DD, what colour is my necktie?"

 

These are still heavy disadvantages, not offset by DD's other senses. None of these examples seem overly contrived (given standard comic book scenarios) to me.

 

Yeah, DD has some compensatory senses, but he had to pay for these. I view his disadvantage as, in large part, "selling back" his normal sight. After all, a character with 20" flight still gets 12 points if he sells back his 6" running.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

I certainly wouldn't give Daredevil the same limitation someone without his senses would get. In JmOz's example I'd also factor in that (from what I recall) each of Daredevil's other senses are Targeting. He can hear if someone is lying, he can smell trace amounts almost as good as wolverine; he can easily "read" by running his fingers over print.

Heck, I 've always wondered how he wears his costume with out itching to death.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

Normal sight is worth 32 points as a sense. Why not buy that back and forget about the Physical Limitation?

 

I mean if you sold off your running and bought flight with it, you wouldn't be getting a Phys Lim, but you would be saving 12 points.

 

FRED page 106 says this a valid method and, where you are building and using a (practically) compensating sense, it is the only method that makes sense, IMO

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

Normal sight is worth 32 points as a sense. Why not buy that back and forget about the Physical Limitation?

 

This is a very fair aproach.

 

I can live with taking the physical limitation.

 

I find it unreasonable to say "Oh, DD spent 100 points on senses most people don't possess, so he shouldn't save much, if anything, for eliminating a sense he could have had for free."

 

Regardless of how many enhanced senses DD has, he had to pay for them, and he cannot see. A character who is blind, and has no compensatory enhanced senses, gets to spend the points DD spent on senses to buy something else. A character who has all of DD's enhanced senses, but is not blind, should need to find more disad points than DD needs - the ability to see grants him an advantage over DD.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

A limitation that doesn't limit the character isn't worth points. The question is not how many points it costs to buy normal sight, nor how many points Daredevil spent on other senses. That is irrelevant. Nor is it relevant to have all sorts of "potential" circumstances if those circumstances never happen in the game. What is relevant is how *often* does Daredevil's blindness significantly limit him? Infrequently. When it *does* limit him, how *much* does it limit him? Slightly.

 

Infrequently, Slightly limiting. 5 points.

[JmOz]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

A limitation that doesn't limit the character isn't worth points. The question is not how many points it costs to buy normal sight, nor how many points Daredevil spent on other senses. That is irrelevant. Nor is it relevant to have all sorts of "potential" circumstances if those circumstances never happen in the game. What is relevant is how *often* does Daredevil's blindness significantly limit him? Infrequently. When it *does* limit him, how *much* does it limit him? Slightly.

 

Infrequently, Slightly limiting. 5 points.

 

OF COURSE IT IS RELEVENT: I know I will get slammed for this but look at the NCM, it limits on how you spend your points, it effects the desisions you make.

 

Daredevil, to use him as the poster child has spend a considerable number of points to compensate for his sight, he has dedicated those points to something else, as suich, using your logic it is ALL THE TIME, now for HOW limiting it is, well that would depend on what percentage of his points he had to dedicate, it could be slightly, or greatly. That is what I like about my method, though the idea of "selling back" your senses is attractive to me...

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

I once built a character who was color blind (she had ultraviolet and infrared, but that left the "normal" range squished enough to seperating into different colors was difficult).

 

I agrued that this was a 5 point limitation, since my character would probably have problems with "well what color is this?" Unfortuately, that wasn't considered a problem to warrent a physical limitation. (I wish I could have had Hugh Neilson explain it, I could only think of "red wire/green wire"). But it was 5 points. I just wanted something beyond the classics: Hunted, Psychological Hang-up, Code against Justifible Homicide types of things.

 

I have always hated the way Hero does physical limitations, it's nearly impossible to judge how much a disability is "worth". I'm starting to like the idea of buying back abilities. Colorblind would probably be like 2 or 3 points, since, it's not quite removing the Discriminatory from vision, but one of the main clues (color) would be lost.

[pinecone]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

I'd strongly suggest that a player take the lim at a lower level DD very seldom has problems with his blindness...if you take it as greatly all the time then it will come up Constantly, and I suspect that is not what you want...this goes equally for any other lim , if you say your powers fail in the presence of canadian geese, all the time then canadian geese show up all the the time...even on alien worlds "Looks like devistator's blast hit the Xenolgy lab....a buch of geese fly out"

[spaceprincessecho]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

Nor is it relevant to have all sorts of 'potential' circumstances if those circumstances never happen in the game.

 

If ElfMan has a susceptability to iron, is it his fault if the GM never uses it? I can't be expected as a player to say, 'I'm going to go lick an iron post, just to validate my susceptability.'

[Trebuchet]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

I once built a character who was color blind (she had ultraviolet and infrared, but that left the "normal" range squished enough to seperating into different colors was difficult).

 

I agrued that this was a 5 point limitation, since my character would probably have problems with "well what color is this?" Unfortuately, that wasn't considered a problem to warrent a physical limitation. (I wish I could have had Hugh Neilson explain it, I could only think of "red wire/green wire"). But it was 5 points. I just wanted something beyond the classics: Hunted, Psychological Hang-up, Code against Justifible Homicide types of things.

 

I have always hated the way Hero does physical limitations, it's nearly impossible to judge how much a disability is "worth". I'm starting to like the idea of buying back abilities. Colorblind would probably be like 2 or 3 points, since, it's not quite removing the Discriminatory from vision, but one of the main clues (color) would be lost.

My character Zl'f has Colorblind as a 10 point Disad, and my GMs are OK with that. She sees in UV like bees do (which includes flourescent colors), but can't tell normal colors at all. While the green wire/red wire example is the obvious and classic one, we use colors for a lot more than that in our day to day lives even if we're not superheroes. What color was the car car that hit yours? Is that a policeman; I can't tell if his uniform is blue. Your daughter ran through the brown door; which one was it? Does the traffic light say go or stop?

 

Here's a list I glommed from a color blindness website:

 

Life's minor frustrations (and occasional dangers) for the color blind:

 

Weather forecasts - especially the Weather Channel - where certain colors just can not be distinguished on their weather maps. Also, maps in general because of the color coding on the legends.

 

Bi-color and tri-color LEDs (Light Emitting Diodes): Is that glowing indicator light red, yellow, or green?

 

Traffic lights, and worst of all, Caution lights: Color blind people always know the position of the colors on the traffic light - in most states, Red on top, Yellow in the center, Green (or is that blue?) on the bottom. It isn't good when we go to a city or state where they put traffic lights horizontal - it takes a couple of days to get used to that one! But caution lights present an entirely different problem. In this situation there is only one light; no top or bottom, no right or left, just one light that is either red or yellow - but which is it?

 

Getting in the sun with your girlfriend: So, you're out in the boat or on the beach with your girlfriend and soaking up the rays. But I can't tell until far too late if I'm getting red - or if she is. If I can tell it's red, by that time it's fire engine red and a painful sunburn is already present.

 

Color observation by others: "Look at those lovely pink flowers on that shrub". My reply, looking at a greenish shrub "What flowers?"

Purchasing clothing: I've got some really neat colors of clothes. Not everyone appreciates them like I do though; they seem to think the colors are strange. I just don't know why!

 

Kids and crayons: Color vision deficiencies bother affected children from the earliest years. At school, coloring can become a difficulty when one has to take the blue crayon -and not the pink one- to color the ocean.

 

Test strips for hard water, pH, swimming pools, etc.: A color blind person is generally unable to :

interpret some chemical reactions

see that litmus paper turns red by acid

identify a material by the color of its flame such as lead blue or potassium purple

interpret the chemical testing kits for swimming pool water, test strips for hard water, soil or water pH tests - all of which rely on subtle color differences and a band of similar colors to compare against.

 

Cooking and foods:

When cooking, red deficient individuals cannot tell whether their piece of meat is raw or well done. Many can not tell the difference between green and ripe tomatoes or between ketchup and chocolate syrup.

Some food can even look definitely disgusting to color deficient individuals. For example, people with a green deficiency cannot possibly eat spinach which to them just look like cow pat. They can however distinguish some citrus fruits. Oranges seem to be of a brighter yellow than that of lemons.

 

Are you wearing lipstick? Many color blind people cannot tell whether a woman is wearing lipstick or not. More difficult to handle for some is the inability to make the difference between a blue-eyed blonde and a green-eyed redhead.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

Just because I can't help it...

 

There is a big difference between the real world problems that someone has with colour blindness and the game reality problems. In game reality, sunburn is never really going to be a problem, cutting the red wire is, occasionally. I suppose the question is not what a physical limitation is worth in the real world, but what it is worth in game reality, which is a function of how often it is a problem and how big a problem it is.

 

With DareDevil, the differences between game reality and real world don't apply so much as there is no sonar/radar sense in the real world (although they may be working on it...), but DD will have problems that are not made apparent because of the way HERO works.

 

Take a silly example, he'll not know if the night is overcast and dark with heavy cloud cover or if the moon is shining brightly. That could make an enormous to whether he is seen by the guard he's sneaking up on. Sonar and radar won't bounce off the moon or clouds. Hell, he probably wouldn't know if there was a spotlight on him, if a room is light or dark (noooooooo, DD has uber sensitive heat detecting senses: he'd know! Whatever.)

 

Taking another example, sonar/radar SHOULD be severely range limited in a city environment - there are lots of extraneous sounds and moving radar reflective objects. Perceiving past a hundred metres or so should be really difficult (on a smoggy day it is with sight!) Sight and all ranged senses have the same range modifiers, and that shouldn't be the case if you are building DD.

 

There isn't an easy way to do senses that are good up to limited range. Ranged Hero senses should, IMO, all start with a -1 per 1" range modifier and you could then buy 'normal range modifiers' for 5/10 points for a sense/sense group

 

You wouldn't be able to see, for example through most windows, in or out. Rain would severely compromise sonar. Consumer electronics would severely compromise radar.

 

So, in the city, news helicopters are a common sight. They are always emblazoned with the network insignia. Police choppers are a common sight too, always painted up to show their status. The evil villain has choppers too, also painted up in his team colours, but until they start shooting, the blind hero has no idea which type it is...

 

Mind you, you are always on to a loser trying to simulate published comic book heroes, because every writer has a different take. I have seen episodes wehre DD has used enhanced senses to see inside an opponent (a sort of drug enhanced, semi-cyborg super soldier) to find points of weakness to attack - combination N-Ray and Find Weakness. In another episode his senses were fooled into thinking someone was NOT lying because they had a pacemaker and so heartbeat didn't change when they told a porky.

 

Any game system can only simulate ONE version of a character.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

TRL, you made my case a hell of a lot better than I did. Especially that excellent bit about the various helicopters...

 

Can't give you rep again yet. Damn!

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

If ElfMan has a susceptability to iron' date=' is it his fault if the GM never uses it?[/quote']

 

No, but he doesn't get a disad for it. To make it even clearer, if your character takes extra damage from glowing blue meteorites, and glowing blue meteorites never show up in the game, you character doesn't get any points. That's simply the way Hero works.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

No' date=' but he doesn't get a disad for it. To make it even clearer, if your character takes extra damage from glowing blue meteorites, and glowing blue meteorites never show up in the game, you character doesn't get any points. That's simply the way Hero works.[/quote']Cold iron would be a very common substance in most campaigns; steel alloys are everywhere.

 

If the GM hasn't prohibited a particular Disad, then if you've taken it you get the points for it. If you want Vulnerability to glowing blue meteorites, then it's up to the GM to say either OK or "there aren't any such glowing blue meteorites in my campaign; pick another Vulnerability." Now if your character has taken a Vulnerability to water, but your campaign is based in Las Vegas then the Disad will be worth less than if he lives in Minnesota ("Land of 10,000 Lakes") or in Hawaii.

 

The ultimate responsibility still rests with the GM.

[Kristopher]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

No, but he doesn't get a disad for it. To make it even clearer, if your character takes extra damage from glowing blue meteorites, and glowing blue meteorites never show up in the game, you character doesn't get any points. That's simply the way Hero works.

 

But when the player puts "Vulnerability: x2 STUN from Blue Meteorites" on his character sheet, and the GM doesn't even question it, and then it never comes up in play, who is at fault?

[arcady]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

On the 'is it my fault if the GM never uses iron' issue - this depends on what the GM knows at the outset.

 

If at the outset I presume there will be a lot of iron, but then later in play it turns out there is no iron, the player gets the points based on what I told them the game would be like.

 

That might sound a little wierd with a case like iron, so let me try it with a psych lim: fear of romance.

 

If I tell my players "there will be no romantic themes in this game" then that disad is worth nothing. But if I say "I use a lot of romantic subplots" then the disad is worth a lot, even if later on I never get around to introducing my planned romantic subplots.

 

The value of the disad is thus, in my opinion, fairly based on what will be in the game, but not on the player's ability to perfectly predict what will be in the game. Rather, on what expectations the GM gives the players about the game.

 

 

The debate on the blind disad is still interesting, albeit frustrating that there does not seem to be an actual community consensus.

 

In my own opinion, the frequency would still be always, even with a compensating different natured sense (like super human hearing or sonar) - you are still always not able to pick up visual only cues. The severity of how limiting this is to you however is something I am not clear on. You do have a total lack of that sense, but you are not totally sensory disabled. But then, even without a compensating sense you are not totally sensorilly disabled.

 

In both cases, you are totally lacking something that does a lot of what vision does, but in the super sense case you do have something else that does some of the major tasks you would use vision for.

 

Unclear for the final call for me still.