Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

I've never had another player demand to see my character sheet' date=' and I'd quit any group that accepted such demands as reasonable.[/quote']

 

Of course the player running the game is going to ask to see your character sheet. If not, then your experience (which already seems pretty atypical, thank goodness) is very, very unusual. And why are you being so confrontational, talking about players "demanding" things? Good players cooperate. There is no need for anyone to "demand" anything.

[Kristopher]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

Of course the player running the game is going to ask to see your character sheet. If not, then your experience (which already seems pretty atypical, thank goodness) is very, very unusual. And why are you being so confrontational, talking about players "demanding" things? Good players cooperate. There is no need for anyone to "demand" anything.

 

Typically, in these discussions, that person is refered to as the "GM", or by some similar term. This is so often the case that I almost suspect that you're clouding the issue on purpose, and you know full well what I meant. I'm pretty sure I said that the only person who needs to see my character sheet is the GM. Who the hell else would I be refering to other than the "player running the game" when I mentioned someone called "the GM?"

 

Did anyone else think that I meant that I wouldn't allow the GM to see my character sheet?

 

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I look at my original post and your very selective, out-of-context quoting of it, the more certain I am that you are being disengenuous.

 

The only person who needs to see all the PC sheets is the GM. The players can share and not share as they see fit. I've never had another player demand to see my character sheet, and I'd quit any group that accepted such demands as reasonable.

[nexus]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

I don't think Kristopher's experience is atypical. I've never been in a multi gm campaign in 20 so years of gaming and I've heard of only a few.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

Typically' date=' in these discussions, that person is refered to as the "GM", or by some similar term.[/quote']

 

You are making a false distinction. If your gaming group is worth anything, at least half of the players will GM on a regular basis. So making some kind of arbitrary discinction on the basis of who may be "wearing the GM hat" this afternoon (as opposed to who was wearing it this morning, or who will be wearing it later this evening), is completely spurious.

 

But your apparent distrust and hostility toward the other people you play with is more troubling. Consider the overt hostility you use when describing your own gaming experiences -- "blaming" people for how many points a Disad is worth, or how you would resent people "demanding" to see your character. Is this how you really see role-playing? Do you really think that it's supposed to be that way? I really hope not.

 

Assuming that you are not the source of all this hostility, it may do you good to find another game group: the one you are in sounds absolutely poisonous. Gaming is a social activity. It's supposed to be fun. The other players are not your enemies, nor even your rivals: you are teammates working toward the same goal. You need to find a group that understands this. "Blame" and "demand" are terms that shouldn't even cross your mind.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

I've never been in a multi gm campaign in 20 so years of gaming and I've heard of only a few.

 

Are you referring to normal role-playing, or PBEM gaming? I am referring to normal, in-person role-playing. PBEM games have a very different dynamic.

[nexus]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

Are you referring to normal role-playing' date=' or PBEM gaming? I am referring to normal, in-person role-playing. PBEM games have a very different dynamic.[/quote']

 

I'm referring to face to face play. All the game I have ever been in have had one gm. The other players might gm their own games, but there wasn't any rotational gming.

 

You are making a false distinction. If your gaming group is worth anything, at least half of the players will GM on a regular basis.

 

Wow, nice blanked proclaimation there.

[Rapier]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

You are making a false distinction. If your gaming group is worth anything' date=' at least half of the players will GM on a regular basis. [/quote']

I hate to tell ya, but simply because we do things differently than you doesn't make them worthless.

 

Let me get you an extension ladder, so you can get off of that horse.

[Kristopher]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

You are making a false distinction. If your gaming group is worth anything, at least half of the players will GM on a regular basis. So making some kind of arbitrary discinction on the basis of who may be "wearing the GM hat" this afternoon (as opposed to who was wearing it this morning, or who will be wearing it later this evening), is completely spurious.

 

There's a difference between "a group of players with a lot of players who also GM" and "a game with multiple GMs."

 

I specifically stated that I have never been in a game with more than one GM for that game, and that was perfectly clear. Every game -- not group, game -- I've been in has had one GM, and only one GM. So refering to that person who is running the game as the GM is in no way a false distinction.

 

Stop trying to muddy the waters.

 

But your apparent distrust and hostility toward the other people you play with is more troubling. Consider the overt hostility you use when describing your own gaming experiences -- "blaming" people for how many points a Disad is worth, or how you would resent people "demanding" to see your character. Is this how you really see role-playing? Do you really think that it's supposed to be that way? I really hope not.

 

In neither case was I describing my own gaming experiences, especially not with the long-term groups I've been in. I was speaking hypothetically, and again, that was quite clear.

 

Even the groups I didn't stay in for long never included the expectation that players could or would look at each other's character sheets except by mutual agreement between any two players.

 

Assuming that you are not the source of all this hostility, it may do you good to find another game group: the one you are in sounds absolutely poisonous. Gaming is a social activity. It's supposed to be fun. The other players are not your enemies, nor even your rivals: you are teammates working toward the same goal. You need to find a group that understands this. "Blame" and "demand" are terms that shouldn't even cross your mind.

 

No, they shouldn't, but in each case it was one of your posts that brought the terms to mind. Hmmm...

 

As for my gaming group, I currently don't have one. Most of them moved away or got busy. So much for your blithe little analysis of my life. The group I was in the longest included FIVE very good GMs, though.

 

 

And FYI, I've only ever been in one PBEM game in over 15 years of gaming.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

Let me get you an extension ladder' date=' so you can get off of that horse.[/quote']

 

My "horse" is that a good game group is one where the players cooperate and communicate, where the goal is to have fun, where people don't wonder "who is to blame" for how many points a Disad is worth, or pre-emptively worry about the other players "demanding" to see their character sheets. My "horse" is that a good game group is a whole lot more than one little tin god ordering around a flock of glassy-eyed sheep, or a group of competitors all scheming and hiding their character sheets: a good game group collaborates, helps each other, and works together to make the game fun.

 

Feel free to climb that ladder up here and join us. There's always room for more.

[Kristopher]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

My "horse" is that a good game group is one where the players cooperate and communicate, where the goal is to have fun, where people don't wonder "who is to blame" for how many points a Disad is worth, or pre-emptively worry about the other players "demanding" to see their character sheets. My "horse" is that a good game group is a whole lot more than one little tin god ordering around a flock of glassy-eyed sheep, or a group of competitors all scheming and hiding their character sheets: a good game group collaborates, helps each other, and works together to make the game fun.

 

Any time you feel like it, you can stop making preachy pronoucements about things that most of us here already know and then patting yourself on the back about how you've "enlightened" us about the virtues of good gaming.

 

While you're at it, you can stop twisting other people's words and misrepresting their positions.

 

And really, you could stop using words like their "scheming" and "paranoia" to describe other gamers' preferences for being surprised by the other PC's secrets as the game goes on, and for learning things about each other's characters as the game goes on.

 

If anything, maybe you need to broaden your gaming experience to include the types of games where "open disclosure" is actively harmful to the fun we're supposed to be having. Maybe you know this already, and maybe you don't, but not every game involves PCs that are all a bunch of boxom buddies, with no hidden agendas and no secrets -- not everyone is running Silver Age Superfriends.

 

Do you honestly think that having everyone at the table know that Paragon is actually a VIPER agent before the first dice are rolled is going to improve the gaming experience in that campaign? Does the GM (or GMs, I guess) share every secret that the villains have, and make sure all the (other) players have seen all the upcoming NPC sheets before each session? Right now, it sure sounds like you expect everyone to know everything that's going on with the other PCs and all the NPCs.

 

RPGing isn't putting on a play, where everyone has read the script and knows the outcome, and is mainly concerned with flexing their acting skills. Part of the fun is in being surprised right along with your character.

 

"Wow Joe, you really pulled off your character's shock at finding out that my character was a VIPER agent. I almost believed that you didn't find out when we shared character sheets before the first session."

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

So, guys, how we going to deal with this 'what is a disadvantage worth'? problem (avoiding confrontation...)

 

A possible solution I have used with some success is that you 'reserve' 50 points of your disadvantages - they are not allocated to anything specific. The GM can create a new one for you at any time, or can increase an existing one, or, if an existing disadvantage is bought off or reduced, the points go back into the pool.

 

This can be especially effective where you have disadvantages you don't know about (a lot of 'watched' type disadvantages, for instance, and maybe some vulnerabilitites or susceptibilities), and is a very useful tool for the GM on occasion. Obviously, like anything, it can be abused, but it strikes me that if issue 1 and issue 100 have different priorities (as they should) then this is a good way to simulate it. You don't need to adjust disadvantage points every game session but if you note that, for example, your vulnerability to silver cutlery never comes up, it can just slip back into the pool (you got over it) and something else can bob to the surface (maybe The Head Waiter takes your contempt of cutlery seriously and becomes a Hunted...)

 

Incidentally, for 'new' heroes we often reserve 50 points of character points too, to be allocated as you go by agreement with the GM, or for the GM to allocate if necessary. This nicely simulates the idea that newly created heroes are on a steep learning curve, discovering new limits on powers and things about themselves they never knew. Obviously this does not work so well for heroes with history that have been around for some time (even if they are newly created), but for the right game it is great: you really feel that your hero is advancing and improving quickly in the early stages, until they come into themselves.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

A possible solution I have used with some success is that you 'reserve' 50 points of your disadvantages - they are not allocated to anything specific.

 

Mystery Disads have a long and honored tradition.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

If anything' date=' maybe [i']you[/i] need to broaden your gaming experience to include the types of games where "open disclosure" is actively harmful to the fun we're supposed to be having. Maybe you know this already, and maybe you don't, but not every game involves PCs that are all a bunch of boxom buddies, with no hidden agendas and no secrets -- not everyone is running Silver Age Superfriends.

 

Do you honestly think that having everyone at the table know that Paragon is actually a VIPER agent before the first dice are rolled is going to improve the gaming experience in that campaign? Does the GM (or GMs, I guess) share every secret that the villains have, and make sure all the (other) players have seen all the upcoming NPC sheets before each session? Right now, it sure sounds like you expect everyone to know everything that's going on with the other PCs and all the NPCs.

 

YUou know, this all makes me curious about bblackmoor's gaming group. Clearly,. there is considerable resistance to designating one player by a separate name ("GM") and placing that player above the rest. So I have a few questions which, hopefully, BB can answer clearly to enhance my understanding:

 

(a) It sounds like, in your games, all PC character sheets are reviewed by all players (GM included) who care to do so. Is this correct?

 

( Assuming (a) is "Yes", who if anyone has the final say in the event of a dispute over the value of some item? It's fine to say "consensus", but decisionmaking by consensus, studies show, ultimately reaches a conclusion in only 1 decision in 3, and is the slowest means by far of coming to a resolution. Assuming the character will be run in a campaign run by a single GM, that GM would normally make the call. In a multi-GM campaign...well, that's why most of us don't have a lot of experience with multi-GM campaigns, isn't it?

 

© Are only PC's subject to universal review, or are all NPC's also subject to such review? ie does every player who cared to review the sheet for tonight's villain team know the villain's vulnerabilities, limitations and personality profile (and are presumably expected to ignore this knowledge in running their character)?

 

(d) If © is No, where is the line drawn? Would a long-term NPC joining the group be subject to universal review? What about a short-term NPC joining thr group? A plant or mole in the group? A friendly NPC? A neiutral NPC? A hostile NPC? A short-term villain? A long-term villain? Does it make a difference if the character is a PC's DNPC, Hunted and/or Rival (where his power level determines the value of the disadvantage)?

 

(e) If © is "No", does this not set the GM Player above the Player Players, in that his characters are not subject to the same open disclosure policy?

 

ie how "open" is the "open disclosure" policy you advocate?

[Kristopher]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

While mystery disads and limits work very well for some people, I prefer to have more control over my character's structure and history.

 

Don't mistake this as meaning that I don't work with the GM during character creation as much as possible.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

While mystery disads and limits work very well for some people, I prefer to have more control over my character's structure and history.

 

Don't mistake this as meaning that I don't work with the GM during character creation as much as possible.

 

Can you honestly say you know everything about yourself?

 

For a character that has been around a long while, or is supposed to have been, then you would expect to know a lot about them, powers and disadvantages, but even they get the odd surprise. For newer characters, they are really useful as the character doesn't know all about their powers and problems, and even the best role players have difficulty ignoring a vulnerabilty or hunted the character is not supposed to know about.

 

Of course this requires you to trust the GM, but you probably should, and it requires that the GM works with the player, but they probably should.

 

GM: Right Ogre picks up the truck and hits you with it for...let's see...45 Stun and 12 Body.

 

NewStar: Ha, my defences absorb most of that!

 

GM (muttering): That's what you think, bucky-boy. You've got a vulnerability to trucks...

 

A lot of players like to plot every aspect of their characters, and that's all good, but mystery disads and powers give the GM a great tool to guide games without too much contrivance, or at least with contrivance. I mean, how often have you actually picked the villain attacking your group as a hunted? This way you - and everyone in the group - can get points for it in a fair and balanced way, without getting tipped off in advance who the villain is going to be.

 

Once you get used to the idea of a disadvantage VPP it allows you to change disadvantages fluidly over time without necessarily buying the points off. The GM can even up the pool size if you need to increase the campaign power level, without just handing out not-necessarily-earned experience.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

Mystery Disads have a long and honored tradition.

 

I think that they should be a recommended part of the game.

 

The whole use of experience and change of points over time could do with looking at IMO. You look at a lot of characters in comics, and they are not necessarily any more powerful now than when they first appeared. Captain America springs to mind. Spiderman's power levels have been up and down, as have The Hulk's...James Bond...In fact a graph of real progression would be shaped like a curve...the better you get the slower you get better.

 

Try suggesting to players that they should get less experince though...

 

One thing we use to deal with this is that you can spend unused experience as temporary bonuses. 1XP = 1 overall level for one full phase. Can't spend more than Character Points/100 rounded up in one go. Complete life saver when you need it, but it slows down power progress, which I think is a good thing in a lot of cases.

 

The idea is freely adapted from the experience system in Deadlands (an excellent game if you haven't tried it), where you get 'fate chips' to keep you alive in hairy situations...and you can use those fate chips to improve stats and abilities if you do not use them.

[Rapier]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

So' date=' guys, how we going to deal with this 'what is a disadvantage worth'? problem (avoiding confrontation...)[/quote']

Bawk Bawk Bawk!!

 

 

A possible solution I have used with some success is that you 'reserve' 50 points of your disadvantages - they are not allocated to anything specific. The GM can create a new one for you at any time' date=' or can increase an existing one, or, if an existing disadvantage is bought off or reduced, the points go back into the pool.[/quote']

We started by using Mystery Hunted (lo those many years ago). These days they are just Mystery Disads. It works really well. I usually use them for plot hooks. It also gives me a pool of "mutable" disads that can change along the path.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

We started by using Mystery Hunted (lo those many years ago). These days they are just Mystery Disads. It works really well. I usually use them for plot hooks. It also gives me a pool of "mutable" disads that can change along the path.

 

I can't remember the last time someone in one of our Supers games knew who was hunting him at game startup.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

how "open" is the "open disclosure" policy you advocate?

 

Please do not attribute quotations to me that I have not said.

 

I am not going to respond to a bunch of slanted questions designed to make a typical friendly game sound like some kind of weird experiement in groupthink. If you want to start a new thread about what makes for good game group dynamics, I'd be happy to participate.

 

(edit) Incidentally, there are a number of threads in these forums devoted to players showing each other their characters. If you are really curious what motivates them to do so, you might ask in a couple of those threads.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

The idea is freely adapted from the experience system in Deadlands (an excellent game if you haven't tried it)' date=' where you get 'fate chips' to keep you alive in hairy situations...and you can use those fate chips to improve stats and abilities if you do not use them.[/quote']

 

Deadlands is one of those games that sounds really neat, but that I have just never gotten around to buying.

[Rapier]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

I can't remember the last time someone in one of our Supers games knew who was hunting him at game startup.

Oh I just have to share. One of my players, a few years back came to me with his new character.

 

Hunted: Dr Destroyer

 

Me: Um. You don't REALLY want to be hunted by the Big D do ya?

Brian: Yeah. I really need the disad points and it would be really cool to have him after my ass.

Me: Ok, lets check through the old history...yep right there, hunted by Big D. Okie doke.

 

About three games pass when his character is startled awake by a noise. Standing at the foot of his bed...yep, you guessed it. Big D hisself. Capture, capture, struggle struggle, death trap, RESCUE, battle battle battle, etc.

 

Post Game:

Brian: Um, dude? Can I pick a new hunted?

Me: Nope, I tried to warn ya!

 

Eventually I did let him trade it off, but not before CLOWN and a couple others used Big D disguises to freak his narrow ass out.

 

Oh...and sometimes a backstory does include a hunted. As long as we go over it before the game I've got no problem with including a hunted or rivalry.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

Oh I just have to share. One of my players, a few years back came to me with his new character.

 

Hunted: Dr Destroyer

 

Me: Um. You don't REALLY want to be hunted by the Big D do ya?

Brian: Yeah. I really need the disad points and it would be really cool to have him after my ass.

Me: Ok, lets check through the old history...yep right there, hunted by Big D. Okie doke.

 

About three games pass when his character is startled awake by a noise. Standing at the foot of his bed...yep, you guessed it. Big D hisself. Capture, capture, struggle struggle, death trap, RESCUE, battle battle battle, etc.

 

Post Game:

Brian: Um, dude? Can I pick a new hunted?

Me: Nope, I tried to warn ya!

 

Eventually I did let him trade it off, but not before CLOWN and a couple others used Big D disguises to freak his narrow ass out.

 

Oh...and sometimes a backstory does include a hunted. As long as we go over it before the game I've got no problem with including a hunted or rivalry.

 

 

I remember when you could have Dr D as a hunted and still expect to survive past the first activation roll...showing my age there then...

[Rapier]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

I remember when you could have Dr D as a hunted and still expect to survive past the first activation roll...showing my age there then...

I've heard that before from some old timers (no offence). It does make kind of sense, after making how many umpteen million attempts to take over the world for the past 20 or 30 years you would think he's rolled up a few XP here and there. I'm almost wondering if Stevey doesn't need to put in some kind of cataclysm to clear the slate for a new batch of baddies.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

Please do not attribute quotations to me that I have not said.

 

If I attribute a quote to you, it looks like the above, not just a set of quotation marks.

 

I am not going to respond to a bunch of slanted questions designed to make a typical friendly game sound like some kind of weird experiement in groupthink. If you want to start a new thread about what makes for good game group dynamics' date=' I'd be happy to participate.[/quote']

 

Then I guess I'll just have to remain curious. SOmehow, I suspect life will go on.

 

(edit) Incidentally' date=' there are a number of threads in these forums devoted to players showing each other their characters. If you are really curious what motivates them to do so, you might ask in a couple of those threads.[/quote']

 

There's a big difference between everyone in the gaming group knowing your character's secrets from the outset, and posting for feedback from a pool of players you don't game with. Both are looking for the **cool** factor, but it's way cooler (IMO and IME, anyway) when those cool things come out in play, rather than just swapping war stories and statistical info out of character.

[Kristopher]

Re: Is Daredevil 'Phys Disad: Blind' or just 'blind'?

 

Please do not attribute quotations to me that I have not said.

 

He didn't.

 

I am not going to respond to a bunch of slanted questions...

 

That's rich, coming from you, Captain Selective Quote.