Defensive VPP -- would you allow this?

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Defensive VPP -- would you allow this?

 

No: because your method provides more flexibility than a Multipower and a greater cost savings than an Elemental Control. I would take that as an indication that I needed to reconsider my assumptions.

 

Why wouldn't it do exactly that since it is a third type of power framework. Also since Limitations taken on the control cost can already do what I say they can (apply to the powers in a pool). I just state all limtations can do it regardless of what subtype they may be. An OAF Gadget pool can only change in a lab is functionaly the same in game terms as a mimic pool. And thus a limitation taken on the powers in the pool benefit (are hindered) by any and all limitations applied to the control cost.

 

It is not broken, is is just my interpretation of the rules and internal logic of the game.

 

Hawksmoor

[Rapier]

Re: Defensive VPP -- would you allow this?

 

For me, it comes down pretty easily.

 

There is a relation between Pool cost and Slot cost.

There is a relation between Pool modifiers (Advantages, Lims, Adders) and Slot modifiers.

The relation between Pool and Slot is not equal.

 

 

VPP: (-1 Only Fire Powers)

Slot: 12d6 Fire EB

 

Now, does it make sense that the Fire EB has a limitation on it (-1 Only Fire Powers)? If a player came to you with a MP or even a straight out EB purchase:

 

12d6 Fireblast EB (vs ED), -1 Only Fire Powers

 

Would you allow it? Of course not.

 

VPPs have a Control Cost. This Cost is, by its very definition, the ability to Control the makeup of the pool. It is a separate entity from the pool itself.

 

By the reasoning that all Control modifiers are shared by the Pool, would also mean that all modifiers shared by the REC of an END Reserve are shared by an END Reserve. Which is silly.

 

A VPP is the original compound power. The Pool is nothing more than a lump of points spent on powers. This lump is no different than 3 separate powers purchased in an MP, EC or striaght out. The Control cost is the second half of the compound power. The Control Cost is the points that is spent to alter the lump of points in the pool. Consider the Control Cost the ultimate in Variable Advantages/Limitations. Consider the Control Cost some kind of convoluted Transform that changes the base power.

 

I just don't see how anyone could rationalise anything else. If a limitation does not limit, it's not worth any points. I fail to see any argument that even comes within the same parsec of refuting that fundamental building block of the Hero system.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Defensive VPP -- would you allow this?

 

Sorry wasn't being clear: a 60pt MP with two 60AP Powers with -1 limitations functions identically to the description I made (60pt VPP with -1 Limitations on the control) on the example VVP given.

 

Maybe I am misreading your comment. Is this a 60 AP multipower with no limitation on the pool, but -1 limitations on each slot? That would cost 60 + 3 per slot, and could have one slot active at a time. The total AP of slots can't exceed the pool. With two slots, it would cost 66 (unless, as I would suggest in my campaign, you put "Variable Limitation" on the pool to reduce the cost to 46).

 

If the powers are all OAF, the cost would be 36.

 

A 60 point VPP with all powers OAF would cost 75 points. It could have two 60 AP powers active at one time, as each would take up only 30 points of the reserve.

 

A 60 point VPP with no overall limitations would cost 90 points, and could have two 60 AP powers active at one time, provided each power had its own -1 limitation.

 

The issue here is the level of limitation you are applying. Electric powers are a SFX' date=' and not easily applicible to a limitation value. If you instead had used -1/2 limited Subset (Electrical Powers: EB RKA Force Feilds, Teleport, Flight) [/quote']

 

The level of limitation will change the math, not the concept. If my VPP is limited to only EB, RKA, Force Field, Teleport and Flight, that is much more limited than "Only powers with elecrical special effect" , so a higher limitation should apply to the control cost than "Only Electricity"

 

But the Flight itself is not, in any way, limited by the fact that it can't change its special effect. If it could change its special effect, it wuld need a +1/4 (at least) advantage. How is it limiting that the power can't do something ot couldn't do anyway.

 

The Control Cost is limited because, absent this restriction, Our Hero could use Flight based on antigravity if electricity became inconvenient. The flight itself is not limited in any way - it functions exactly the same as flight purchased outside a VPP and assigned an electrical special effect.

 

Or teleport or AID or Tunnelling or Extra Speed or any of a thousand other things. A pretty hefty limitation I would say.

 

Indeed. But it does not make the force field any less useful. It merely limits the ability to reallocate those points elsewhere. That power is a function of the VPP control cost, not of the force field. Would you allow a Multipower to take a limitation for "movement powers only" and reduce the cost of the pool and each slot therein?

 

Let's take this to the ultimate extreme. What should the limitation be for "Only Electrical Force Fields"? I'll assume -2 since that's where limitations cap out. We'll make it Cosmic so it can be changed at will, and call it a 60 point pool. That's a cost of 90 points in total.

 

Based on your approach, the character can have a 60 PD force field, a 60 ED force field, and 60 points of exotic defenses, say 20 Flash, 20 Mental and 20 Power defense in a force field, all running at the same time. He can also mix and match as he sees fit, add advantages like 0 END or Hardened at will, etc.

 

Now, a character who buys his force field directly must pay 180 points for the same force fields, and doesn't get any flexibility whatsoever - it's stuck in its original configuration. Will you let him take "-2 - only for electricat force field" to reduce his cost to 60 points? His force fields suffer from that limitation to the exact same extent our VPP character's force fields do, so why should the value of the limitation on the power itself differ?

 

Simply because of the established fact that frameworks are more efficient than not using them? I mean we can wonk ECs to the ground to make them balanced' date=' or say Attack Multis are munchkinsh but using a framework is always going to get a bigger bang for the buck than not using one. [/quote']

 

The issue becomes how much bigger. As has been stated previously, your system says "buy a VPP with limited powers or be left in the dust by those who did".

 

So? I do not subscribe to the "what ever costs the most must be right approach." Further I do not see a problem with the system since all VPPs would be treated the same. All limitations are the same and treated the same when regarding a VPP. No one gets screwed over and no one stands out as wonky. Not the Gadget VPP guy' date=' not the Magic VPP guy and not the Mimic VPP guy, and each of them is limited in power compared to Cosmic VPP guy (even if he has to spend time and roll to change his powerset).[/quote']

 

What about the EC guy, the Multipower Guy or the Brick? And the "limited SFX" character gets far more power at any one time than the Cosmic VPP guy, yet pays less for that power.

 

As to the difference between a straight out build and a VPP or MP model the difference is one straight out guy is able to freely use all of his abilities' date='[/quote']

 

The VPP examples st out allowed the VPP guy access to all the abilities straight out guy had at the same time.

 

Drains are reduced to normal potency' date=' [/quote']

 

Only EC's have a Drain disadvantage. I don't believe you can drain the pool (and what concept would permit draining the pool, rather than the individual powers). but must drain the powers.

 

and he can sling MPAs with inpugnity.

 

As long as sufficient points are available, the rules say MPA's can include any number of powers from a VPP or multipower, provided you don't exceed the pool in total AP.

 

VPP guy of course very powerful and efficient but drain his reserve' date=' or catch him in a situation he cannot deal with: Webfluid MP/VPP in deep space and the limitations on that VPP will bite him. Cosmic Power VPP with no limits what so ever has no problems no matter what you do to him.[/quote']

 

This logic applies to powers which are intrinsically limited (eg. OIF, Restrainable, etc.) Those limitations apply to the power anyway. The fact that the VPP can only use fire effects does not limit the fire powers themselves any more than a fire power purchased straight up, or through any other framework, would be limited.

 

As for the "dispel foci", I'm in agreement there.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Defensive VPP -- would you allow this?

 

The Control Cost is limited because' date=' absent this restriction, Our Hero could use Flight based on antigravity if electricity became inconvenient.[/quote']

 

As an aside, Power Pools do, in fact, need a unifying special effect, albeit not one as tight as normally applies to Elemental Controls or straight powers (much like a Multipower, in that respect). As it happens, you have chosen two of the fundamental forces of nature for your example, so a Power Pool character whose conception was "master of the fundamental forces" could conceivably switch SFX that way. And of course there are other conceptions that have similar flexibility: a tech based character could probably have a freeze ray and a heat gun, and so forth. But it isn't automatic.

[Kristopher]

Re: Defensive VPP -- would you allow this?

 

So, basically, Hawksmoor, you don't care if a Firebolt: 12d6 EB (-1: Only Fire-Based Powers) is 30 points cheaper than a Firebolt: 12d6 EB for absolutely no loss whatsoever in power or utility, and you let your players have the 50% discount for free?

 

Would you allows someone to buy that power, with the same limit, outside of a VPP?

[Victim]

Re: Defensive VPP -- would you allow this?

 

You don't put Cosmic +2 on powers inside your Cosmic VPP, so the other control related limitations don't apply on powers inside a VPP either.

[Kristopher]

Re: Defensive VPP -- would you allow this?

 

You don't put Cosmic +2 on powers inside your Cosmic VPP, so the other control related limitations don't apply on powers inside a VPP either.

 

Another excellent point.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Defensive VPP -- would you allow this?

 

So' date=' basically, Hawksmoor, you don't care if a [i']Firebolt[/i]: 12d6 EB (-1: Only Fire-Based Powers) is 30 points cheaper than a Firebolt: 12d6 EB for absolutely no loss whatsoever in power or utility, and you let your players have the 50% discount for free?

 

Would you allows someone to buy that power, with the same limit, outside of a VPP?

 

No. But I would allow a MP with the -1/2 limitation Slots take a one phase action to change. Straight out power purchases belong on a different thread, frameworks *alter* the cost of powers. Each framework does things differently. VPPs are even STOP signs for crying out loud! They do amazing things to the rules.

 

Every one needs to read the following passage on the top of page 203 that says loosely that power frameworks *reduce* the cost of powers bought straight in exchange for restrictions on *how and when* they can use their powers.

 

Given that statement nothing I allow a VPP to do is wrong.

 

As an aside I actually consider VPPs to be overrated since they are such point sink. They are cool, but only in high powered games are they really going to shine. And even at that careful consideration of the powers they use (pull out of the VPP) must be made.

 

Hawksmoor

[Kristopher]

Re: Defensive VPP -- would you allow this?

 

No. But I would allow a MP with the -1/2 limitation Slots take a one phase action to change. Straight out power purchases belong on a different thread, frameworks *alter* the cost of powers. Each framework does things differently. VPPs are even STOP signs for crying out loud! They do amazing things to the rules.

 

Every one needs to read the following passage on the top of page 203 that says loosely that power frameworks *reduce* the cost of powers bought straight in exchange for restrictions on *how and when* they can use their powers.

 

Given that statement nothing I allow a VPP to do is wrong.

 

As an aside I actually consider VPPs to be overrated since they are such point sink. They are cool, but only in high powered games are they really going to shine. And even at that careful consideration of the powers they use (pull out of the VPP) must be made.

 

So what's actually happened is that you've taken one comment from the book, overstated its applicability, and used that misunderstanding to constradict the rules as written for VPPs, making them far more effective than they already, actually are.

 

Let's look at the actual rules for VPPs, instead of an open ended passage six pages earlier. If you look at the 5th through 8th paragraphs on page 209, which begin with "Characters never apply Advantages or Limitations to the Pool cost", it should be clear how this is supposed to work. It goes on to list three types of Limitations that could be applied to the Control cost of the VPP. Paragraph 8 is especially important -- "The third type of Limitation is one which affects the powers bought through the Power Pool. This sort of Limitation is taken for the Control cost, but also must be taken for any Powers built with the Power Pool..." Because this is mentioned here, and not at the beginning of the rules regarding Limitations, it must mean that other two types of Limitations -- how the Powers can be changed and what kind of powers can be used -- are not applied to the Powers, but only to the Control Cost itself.

 

Considering that you appear to be the only one who interpreted the rules as you have, and that in terms of evidence it's page after page of examples of why Limits on VPPs do not work the way you claim, vs your one misread passage from outside the section directly detailing VPPs, it's obvious that you've lost this arguement.

 

I shouldn't even care, since it's your game and I'm highly, highly unlikely to ever be anywhere near your game, and you can run it however you damn well please. However, someone new to the HERO system might be reading this thread, and get your wierd notion of how VPPs work stuck in his head.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Defensive VPP -- would you allow this?

 

I shouldn't even care' date=' since it's your game and I'm highly, highly unlikely to ever be anywhere near your game, and you can run it however you damn well please. However, someone new to the HERO system might be reading this thread, and get your wierd notion of how VPPs work stuck in his head.[/quote']

 

Me too - and thanks for the official rule book quotes!

[Agent X]

Re: Defensive VPP -- would you allow this?

 

So what's actually happened is that you've taken one comment from the book, overstated its applicability, and used that misunderstanding to constradict the rules as written for VPPs, making them far more effective than they already, actually are.

 

Let's look at the actual rules for VPPs, instead of an open ended passage six pages earlier. If you look at the 5th through 8th paragraphs on page 209, which begin with "Characters never apply Advantages or Limitations to the Pool cost", it should be clear how this is supposed to work. It goes on to list three types of Limitations that could be applied to the Control cost of the VPP. Paragraph 8 is especially important -- "The third type of Limitation is one which affects the powers bought through the Power Pool. This sort of Limitation is taken for the Control cost, but also must be taken for any Powers built with the Power Pool..." Because this is mentioned here, and not at the beginning of the rules regarding Limitations, it must mean that other two types of Limitations -- how the Powers can be changed and what kind of powers can be used -- are not applied to the Powers, but only to the Control Cost itself.

 

Considering that you appear to be the only one who interpreted the rules as you have, and that in terms of evidence it's page after page of examples of why Limits on VPPs do not work the way you claim, vs your one misread passage from outside the section directly detailing VPPs, it's obvious that you've lost this arguement.

 

I shouldn't even care, since it's your game and I'm highly, highly unlikely to ever be anywhere near your game, and you can run it however you damn well please. However, someone new to the HERO system might be reading this thread, and get your wierd notion of how VPPs work stuck in his head.

Grossly overstated your position. I read Hawksmoor's post and it seemed clear to me he was describing a house rule that he advocated over the official rule, hence he pointed out Steve Long and he were in disagreement. Thanks for playing.

[Kristopher]

Re: Defensive VPP -- would you allow this?

 

He might be saying it's a house rule, but he's arguing it as if he believes he's reading it correctly and everyone else isn't.

[nexus]

Re: Defensive VPP -- would you allow this?

 

I felt he was presenting his interpretation as better than the official one, not so much the "correct" way to read it. Which makes sense, of course he'd feels his House Rule is better otherwise he wouldn't be using it.

[Rapier]

Re: Defensive VPP -- would you allow this?

 

I felt he was presenting his interpretation as better than the official one' date=' not so much the "correct" way to read it. Which makes sense, of course he'd feels his House Rule is better otherwise he wouldn't be using it.[/quote']

I think part of the problem comes from the vast majority (I haven't seen anyone yet that agreed with his interpretation) of people are so against his fundamental idea. He is very much 'breaking' a few of the cardinal rules of Hero. It stands to reason that people are going to be a little flabbergasted.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Defensive VPP -- would you allow this?

 

Actually this was not my house rule and was in fact just the way I was taught to read that rule when I started playing champions. I stayed away for a day or so to formulate my thoughts and evaluate what everyone else was trying to say. I do read and reflect you know?

 

I came down to the realization that I was being imprecise in my wording. My point is that as per the rules there are three types of limitations that can be applied to the control cost of a VPP. When, What, and Direct on power limitations.

 

I think that When and What are to be included as well on the cost of powers purchased with the pool. Why because "when and what" are just "Conditional Limitations* as per the limited power limitation on page 194. To explain allow me to use the illustration of the Mimic Pool.

 

Mimic is floating in deep space after being Megascale teleported from the villians HQ. Mimic has a 60 point VPP defined as a mimic pool obviously. What can Mimic do?

 

Mimic trys to get his VPP to give him life support. Simple. He allocated 19 points to LS: SCB and H/C and HR and Immune to Zero Gravity. But then he runs into problems because he limited his pool.

 

Because Mimic's VPP has been bought with the limitation requires a successful HtH roll. No one is in HtH range for him to hit so the Life support the buys with his VPP pool does not work.

 

Even if someone was there for Mimic to touch, like say a teammate, Mimic might still be in trouble because he has VPP mimics targets powers. If that team mate lacks LS then mimics pool bought LS does not work.

 

Alright lets say that Mimic has a teammate that has LS and can touch him. The problem is that said teammate is an Atlatean and has LS: expanded breathing and Immunity to cold. Now Mimic has the problem with his last limitation Can only be as powerful as the targets powers. Mimic can now breathe water and the cold isn't bothering him anymore, but he is still decompressing and still can't suck vacuum.

 

Read that again. Mimic has his Life Support with *three* hefty limitaions on it that prevent him from using his LS that he purchased with is VPP pool from working unless he can satisfy each of those conditional limitaions.

 

Now who is right and who needs to take a valium? All these other limitations are just conditional limitations that effect the powers taken from a VPP implictly even if they are not explict or obvious.

 

Hawksmoor

-Accepting cash not apologies. ;D

[nexus]

Re: Defensive VPP -- would you allow this?

 

Those are limitations on the way the Pool functions. If those limitations are not fullfilled, he cannot use the pool to purchase life support at all.

 

No one with LS:No Need Breathe in HTH distance? Sorry, you can't purchase it with your pool. It not "restricted" you simply don't have it.

 

None of the limitations would affect the function of the power at all once it is applicable to being purchased though.

 

Edit: Least thats the way I see it.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Defensive VPP -- would you allow this?

 

You missed the point. By your statement you would disallow all conditional limitations because if you can use it you are not limited which is incorrect. There is nothing that says I cannot build a power in my VPP reserve that I sometimes cannot use. After all in many ways it is just a big MP. I can only get access to that slot under the right conditions. It is a valid limitation.

 

Hawksmoor

[nexus]

Re: Defensive VPP -- would you allow this?

 

You missed the point. By your statement you would disallow all conditional limitations because if you can use it you are not limited which is incorrect. There is nothing that says I cannot build a power in my VPP reserve that I sometimes cannot use. After all in many ways it is just a big MP. I can only get access to that slot under the right conditions. It is a valid limitation.

 

Hawksmoor

 

No, I'm saying those Limitations only apply to the control cost of the VPP which is the characters ability to control it. If those conditions are not met, he can't purchase the power to begin with. The Life Support itself is in NO WAY limited once you can allot the points to it by that set of limitations. If the limitatation are applicable to both, they can be applied to both power and control cost. They are not automatically applied because many times sometimes the results would be non sensical.

 

A VPP with "Only Attack powers" is used to get at RKA. That RKA should not have a limitation "Only Attack Powers" It doesn't make any sense.

 

I understod and play VPPs are basically pools of unspent character points, virtual points if you will. The limitations on the pool control what you can spend those points on. When you're buying the powers, you can place limitation on them that applicable to the situation. The Pool limitations are seperate. Sometimes they overlap, sometimes they do not.

[nexus]

Re: Defensive VPP -- would you allow this?

 

All right, let me see if I'm understanding our view points correctly. I'm not passing any judgement here.

 

Your stance on VPPs is that they are like huge Multipowers that have pretty much every power that can fit under their active point cap in them. The Limitations on the Pool effect when you can access those powers and thus appy to the power.

 

To use Mimic again. He has literally every power he can afford. His access to them is just limited by who he can touch. So its like he brought the power seperately with the limitation "I must touch someone with it before I can use it." (Lets ignore the questions about how long he'd keep it and all that.).

 

With that viewpoint, I can see where you're coming from. I don't agree but I understand.

 

I see it this way. Mimic has One power. He can mimic the powers of those he touches. Up until he copies them, he has no powers. Once he copies them, those abilities aren't limit. His power to copy (His VPP) is limited, the powers he gets from it are not.

[Victim]

Re: Defensive VPP -- would you allow this?

 

 

Mimic is floating in deep space after being Megascale teleported from the villians HQ. Mimic has a 60 point VPP defined as a mimic pool obviously. What can Mimic do?

 

Mimic trys to get his VPP to give him life support. Simple. He allocated 19 points to LS: SCB and H/C and HR and Immune to Zero Gravity. But then he runs into problems because he limited his pool.

 

Because Mimic's VPP has been bought with the limitation requires a successful HtH roll. No one is in HtH range for him to hit so the Life support the buys with his VPP pool does not work.

 

Even if someone was there for Mimic to touch, like say a teammate, Mimic might still be in trouble because he has VPP mimics targets powers. If that team mate lacks LS then mimics pool bought LS does not work.

 

Alright lets say that Mimic has a teammate that has LS and can touch him. The problem is that said teammate is an Atlatean and has LS: expanded breathing and Immunity to cold. Now Mimic has the problem with his last limitation Can only be as powerful as the targets powers. Mimic can now breathe water and the cold isn't bothering him anymore, but he is still decompressing and still can't suck vacuum.

 

Read that again. Mimic has his Life Support with *three* hefty limitaions on it that prevent him from using his LS that he purchased with is VPP pool from working unless he can satisfy each of those conditional limitaions.

 

Hawksmoor

-Accepting cash not apologies. ;D

 

No, your order of operations is wrong. Mimic has a pool of points. He can spend these points A) by touching someone, copying powers that they have, and C) only up to their level of powers. He can't buy life support, then look around for the person he needs to satify the conditions of his power. He doesn't have life support; he has the ability to copy powers. If there is no person to copy from, he can't use his VPP and thus doesn't buy Life Support AT ALL, much less with a bunch of limitations.

[caris]

Re: Defensive VPP -- would you allow this?

 

You missed the point. By your statement you would disallow all conditional limitations because if you can use it you are not limited which is incorrect. There is nothing that says I cannot build a power in my VPP reserve that I sometimes cannot use. After all in many ways it is just a big MP. I can only get access to that slot under the right conditions. It is a valid limitation.

 

Hawksmoor

 

Well, in 5th Ed, yeah, the rules for VPP addresses that point. The ease and breadth that a character has in switching powers around reduces what are applicable Limitations for powers bought in a VPP. The rules do leave it to the discretion of the GM.

 

There is a fundamental flaw in the logic of VPP=really big MP. To beggin with they simply do not function mechanically the same way, and the way they do function generally allows me to feel better about giving the MP the bigger price break. Even so a MP has a definite point of diminishing returns in comparison to VPP, particularly if you are trying to create an MP with all the versatility and equal power level of a Cosmic VPP. Ultimately, an MP that was large enough to match a Cosmic VPP's versatility on the same active points would cost more than the VPP even with the ugly Advantages on the control cost.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Defensive VPP -- would you allow this?

 

Fundamental difference in how we view the framework then. I think of it as every power *ever* under a certain point limit cascading down the character sheet of into the far far distance. Think of a power with your SFX and it's in there. Whether or not you can access it depends on your limtations and the satisfying conditions.

 

Example: Back to the Mimic Pool.

 

What if Mimic was accompanied to deep space by the Villian. The Villian has all the requiste LS powers that Mimic wants, but also has Flight and he stays well out of HtH range. Since Mimic can't lay a finger on the villian he cannot activate his power and thus dies the painful death of space.

 

Now what would happen if Mimic did not have the HtH modifer and were built more like Amazo the one man Justice League? Mimic would not need to touch the villian and would simply mimic that characters LS by choosing his exact combination of LS from his infinite (or nearly so for our consideration) choices of LS in his VPP. Mimic Lives!

 

The VPP user does not build a power to me he merely selects a virtual slot in a unlimited and infinite MP. He still has to satisfy the limitations on conditions of When and What as well as direct effects on that slot to use it though. The limitations always overlap.

 

I do not think that SFX limitations like only Fire or only magic powers are appropriate limitations since they are just SFX. One does not get limitations for choosing powers appropriate to SFX. Only Attack powers in a VPP would work since you can't for instance make a EB heal someone. You can't select Armor from your VPP slots of infinite variety because that limitation on only attacks applies. Your character is limited in what he can do with the pool, gets a point break on its cost, and his power selected is limited by what it can not do.

 

Stand alone examples are inappropriate since this is a framework debate. What an EC can do is slightly valid, but only slightly since it is apples and oranges. What a MP can do is more appropriate, but even that breaksdown because VPPs are just different enough, mostly on the point of the infinity thing, to make the comparsion break down.

 

Kristopher or someone said why don't you simply buy +2 Cosmic with your power? I say that is what you did. You paid for an advantage on your infinite slots of the VPP. You bought off the -0 "powers take a while to change", that was on each of your slots already, with the "Cosmic" advantages You could also just buy the -0 Requires Skill Roll Limitation and get Gadgetry or Occultist or Massage. The problem seems to be that many are not thinking of the pool in this way.

 

Like I said before VPPs are weird beasts, and should be looked at with great scrutiny, but I think they work exactly as I state they do working from a point of conditional limitations. The look a lot like MPs but they are not, they operate just differently enough in how you utilize the powers in your Varible Power Pool.

 

Hawksmoor

[OddHat]

Re: Defensive VPP -- would you allow this?

 

You missed the point. By your statement you would disallow all conditional limitations because if you can use it you are not limited which is incorrect. There is nothing that says I cannot build a power in my VPP reserve that I sometimes cannot use. After all in many ways it is just a big MP. I can only get access to that slot under the right conditions. It is a valid limitation.

 

Hawksmoor

 

You do not triple the active point cost of every power in a Cosmic VPP. The control cost may have a +2 Advantage (No Skill Roll, No Time to Change Points), but a 20 active point power within the pool remains a 20 active point power; It does not take that +2 Advantage on the Control Cost and become a 60 active point power. In exactly the same way, limits on how and when the pool may be changed that are applied to the control cost do not generally apply to the powers in the pool. The "Mimic Only" limit is on the control cost; it is not on the powers within the pool itself.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Defensive VPP -- would you allow this?

 

No' date=' your order of operations is wrong. Mimic has a pool of points. He can spend these points A) by touching someone, copying powers that they have, and C) only up to their level of powers. He can't buy life support, then look around for the person he needs to satify the conditions of his power. He doesn't have life support; he has the ability to copy powers. If there is no person to copy from, he can't use his VPP and thus doesn't buy Life Support AT ALL, much less with a bunch of limitations.[/quote']

 

No, the order of operations is immaterial. He has to satisfy all of them. He can't do his thing is he has one or two of the three. You are making a SFX judgement on the limitations to prove your point. All it boils down to is is there at least one individual that I can touch with the appropriate powers (type and amount)?

 

Hawksmoor

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Defensive VPP -- would you allow this?

 

You do not triple the active point cost of every power in a Cosmic VPP. The control cost may have a +2 Advantage (No Skill Roll' date=' No Time to Change Points), but a 20 active point power within the pool remains a 20 active point power; It does not take that +2 Advantage on the Control Cost and become a 60 active point power. In exactly the same way, limits on how and when the pool may be changed that are applied to the control cost do not generally apply to the powers in the pool. The "Mimic Only" limit is on the control cost; it is not on the powers within the pool itself.[/quote']

 

I see it (the points in the pool) as being the maximum power of any one power you can take out of the Pool in Real and Active Points. You can stack on additional advantages and limitations of course but you have already bought +2 on all of your slots by taking these advangtages. You have just as I said before taken away the -0 limitations on condtions and extra time you took on your VPP.

 

Hawksmoor