A Difficult Power

[Blue]

Re: A Difficult Power

 

Second, I agree with the "How is this a superhero?" question.

When I was first teaching Champions to my teen nephews, one of them kept coming up with a string of Spawn-wannabe's.

Well, okay, now I'm getting annoyed. If you guys like I can move this to the Hero System rules, thereby resolving any connection to what you guys feel "Champions" is.

 

Thanks, great arbiters of style.

[Blue]

Re: A Difficult Power

 

[deep breath]

 

Okay, sorry for getting all testy there.

 

Let me put it this way: I've got a player trying to think outside the box. How cool is that?. There's no chance I'm going to discourage her when I think this can work.

 

She's the player who shows up least for the games, due to work and family, etc. I plan to make showing up for a game as enticing as possible. And if a concept can be made to fit into my game world, it's going to. Because I'm having fun if they're having fun.

[Lightray]

I plan to make showing up for a game as enticing as possible. And if a concept can be made to fit into my game world' date=' it's going to. Because I'm having fun if they're having fun.[/quote']

Now that's superheroic.

 

Ignore all accusations that you're having badwrongfun. With comics like The Authority or Spawn that are so Iron Age they're more like Depleted Uranium Age, the "superheroic" genre can easily accomodate a character like this.

 

In fact, as a spirit of vengeance, she's right there with the Spectre -- who with the JSA would probably fit into the late-Golden / early-Silver Age genre insofar as mood and "feel".

 

Champions and superheroes should not limit you to playing characters that don't scare the kiddies.

[ArgentLupe]

Re: A Difficult Power

 

So, because I prefer a grittier, pseudo-realistic campaign style, my characters are not heroes? Some of us don't like 4-color trappings. Some of us don't even read comics!

 

I always thought what made a hero was a willingness to take extraordinary efforts to solve a problem, irregardless of personal concern?. Now I find out it's all about the tights.

[Kristopher]

Re: A Difficult Power

 

I always thought what made a hero was a willingness to take extraordinary efforts to solve a problem, irregardless of personal concern?

Now I find out it's all about the tights.

 

REP!

[Myrmidon]

Re: A Difficult Power

 

Personally,

 

I'd build this a vehichle type construct.....

 

Essentially the Character is riding around in mecha that slowly breaks down and gets replaced after each adventure. Sure it may be a new corpse but who said that vehichles couldn't be made out of the dead.

 

I'd then steal a page from cyberpunk and make the spirit buy a 'jack to run the vehicle that transfers stun and body damage.

 

So when your dead character gets blasted by with a nasty RKA from the decidely scared supervillian the body and stun damage after defences roll over and hurt the spirit like she's an occupent of a vehichle.

 

The different bodies is simply the SFX of what happens to destroyed vehichles and how she gets the new one which is oddly enough almost entirely the same.

 

Cheers, David

 

 

 

Is there a better build? Am I better off just making the characteristic pool and giving a free ride on all the body-changing stuff, just giving a limitation that the body slowly deteriorates and only resets between adventures or something like that (So she doesn't wind up getting out of a Viper prison by simply suiciding).

[Kristopher]

Re: A Difficult Power

 

Now that's superheroic.

 

Ignore all accusations that you're having badwrongfun. With comics like The Authority or Spawn that are so Iron Age they're more like Depleted Uranium Age, the "superheroic" genre can easily accomodate a character like this.

 

In fact, as a spirit of vengeance, she's right there with the Spectre -- who with the JSA would probably fit into the late-Golden / early-Silver Age genre insofar as mood and "feel".

 

Champions and superheroes should not limit you to playing characters that don't scare the kiddies.

 

Some of my best experiences with Champions came from a game in which, without any collaboration, three of us showed up with characters that "scared the kiddies". I had T'Shenk, who is posted in the New Circle thread (with a lot of added power). There was a guy who could change into an amorphous black blob and had all sorts of stretching and shapeshifting and a VPP. There was a guy who changed into a humanoid snake creature.

 

Yet they were all heroes.

 

We called the team Aegis -- the shield with the horrible visage.

[Lightray]

All very good suggestions, folks.

 

Gives me fodder to write up a few builds and take them to the player now.

And to let us know what she chooses, of course.

[KA.]

Re: A Difficult Power

 

[deep breath]

 

Okay, sorry for getting all testy there.

 

Let me put it this way: I've got a player trying to think outside the box. How cool is that?. There's no chance I'm going to discourage her when I think this can work.

 

She's the player who shows up least for the games, due to work and family, etc. I plan to make showing up for a game as enticing as possible. And if a concept can be made to fit into my game world, it's going to. Because I'm having fun if they're having fun.

 

Blue,

No problem, really.

You weren't getting testy, so much as expressing your opinion.

 

Which is the same thing I was doing.

 

As you may have noticed, the next paragraph in my post started with:

"However, we did only learn one aspect of this character.

While it is a bit grisly, it may be that the character's motivations are more heroic, kind of like a silver age cross between Deadman and The Spectre."

 

And, in an earlier post, I offered a possible way to model this effect.

 

All I am trying to say is, I wasn't intending to insult you or your player.

 

And I don't really think I did.

 

I do have fairly strong opinions on what I consider a Superhero, but I don't think expressing them is the same thing as shouting down anyone with a different concept.

 

My strong preference for Blackberry cobbler is not intended as an insult to those who prefer Apple, or Cherry, or none at all.

 

I don't think anyone suggested that this character has no business on the Champions board, other than you.

 

I do admit to a somewhat kneejerk reaction.

It is just that usually when someone combines "superhero" and "graveyard" the result is not exactly what I look for in my games.

 

On the other hand, one of my first Champions characters was The Grim Reaper.

He worked at a graveyard and carried a scythe, but his main power was a Mental Entangle, so people would be more "comatose" than actually "dead".

And, as far as motivations, actions, etc. he was pretty much Four Color all the way. He looked scary, but he wasn't evil.

 

Much like the character your player is describing.

 

I guess both sides are a bit oversensitive to this issue.

 

I have seen practically every character and comic I used to read go further and further in the direction of becoming an amoral Iron Age bloodbath.

 

On the other hand, fans of Iron Age comics feel put upon by those who compare everything to the Good Old Days, even things that are meant to be original, and frankly, have nothing to do with what went before.

 

Not trying to prove anything here, but there is one point I would like to make about this overall question. I know that no one here has anything to do with the publishing of comics. So it would be foolish to "blame" anyone for what the publishers do.

However, one reason that Four Color fans can be a bit testy is this.

If someone is a fan of The Authority, or Spawn, or some other Iron Age comic, you are allowed to have those characters in all their bloodthirsty glory.

It is accepted that this is the way they are.

But, if you are a fan of many of the Four Color heroes of the past, you have to put up with them being retconned to fit the new mold.

"Oh, you just thought Captain Heroic was a good guy!

He is actually a fascist pedophile working for Cthuloid aliens that want to enslave the Earth.

You were a naive fool to believe anything else!"

It is hard to not rankle a bit at that sort of thing.

 

I drink Coke. Others prefer Pepsi. I have no problem with that.

But if others still got to enjoy their Pepsi, while all of my Coke was converted into Pepsi, you can see how I might be a bit sensitive on the topic.

 

I think you responded to what you saw as an attack reasonably.

 

I hope that I have done the same.

 

Tomato, Tomahto, I am more than willing to call this whole thing off.

 

KA.

[Blue]

Re: A Difficult Power

 

Oh, I was just a little blindsided. I posted a request about how to do a power and when I log in the next day there's a rant about what's heroic and what's not (Like I hadn't been reading comics for 28 Years), then it was sustained. Suddenly I'm thinking "Don't lecutre me, help me with what I asked for", so I needlessly blew fuse. Well, not too bad. Just a little fuse. The one that powers the juicer or other small appliance.

 

I appreciate the constructive help that you and everyone else has offered.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: A Difficult Power

 

The character is essentially a spirit. Each day when they appear to the super-team they show up looking like someone completely different.

 

It's an interesting idea.

 

I would probably call it Shapeshift, 1 charge per day, no conscious control, linked to Teleport, same Limitations. It that's more expensive than you think the ability is worth, toss them both in an EC and shave a few points off that way.

 

Most of the side-effects I would just hand-wave as SFX. A player shouldn't be needlessly penalized for coming up with an idea just because it's hard to approximate it with the usual Powers and Limitations.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: A Difficult Power

 

Champsguy,

 

First, congratulations on reaching 1000 posts in your latest incarnation.

 

Thanks. I didn't even realize it.

 

Second, I agree with the "How is this a superhero?" question.

When I was first teaching Champions to my teen nephews, one of them kept coming up with a string of Spawn-wannabe's.

"I want to raise armies of demons that kill people!"

"And what exactly makes that heroic?"

"Because they kill bad people!"

 

However, we did only learn one aspect of this character.

While it is a bit grisly, it may be that the character's motivations are more heroic, kind of like a silver age cross between Deadman and The Spectre.

I mean we havent' heard anything about RKA Flying Maggots, or summoning an army of zombies to tear flesh from the bad guys.

Yet.

 

True. And you know, I could probably do something with this character. He doesn't have to be gross and disgusting.

 

And, even though you and I appear to have pretty similar ideas about what makes a hero, there are people who are really into the "Iron Age" stuff.

 

I think of it like a church picnic. They come for the fried chicken, but they may pick up a little gospel along the way.

 

As long as new people keep joining the Hero flock, some day, when they have played out all the bloodthirsty butchery, they may get bored and decide to make a "real" Superhero.

 

And then we've got them.

 

KA.

 

I'm just leery of characters like this. I've gamed with too many people who wanted to play floating balls of blue light, or abstract concepts ("I'm the incarnation of time!"), or yes, undead spirits of vengeance. I was in one game where a guy played a tiny little man who sat inside a spaceship that was the size of a half-dollar. His power? He'd sit on someone's shoulder and give them +30 defense (he might have had an attack, but I don't remember it). His goal was to not get knocked unconscious. I don't think he ever did anything during that whole game.

 

I just wonder how characters like these are going to save a kid from a burning building.

[Lightray]

Re: A Difficult Power

 

... I was in one game where a guy played a tiny little man who sat inside a spaceship that was the size of a half-dollar. His power? He'd sit on someone's shoulder and give them +30 defense (he might have had an attack, but I don't remember it). His goal was to not get knocked unconscious. I don't think he ever did anything during that whole game.

 

I just wonder how characters like these are going to save a kid from a burning building.

Duh. He gives the kid +30 defense and pushes him out of the window.

 

You need to get your Munchkin-responsemeter recalibrated if you didn't see that one coming...

[nexus]

Re: A Difficult Power

 

First off, I haven't read the entire thread so if its been resolved I apologize. I did feel I had a little to contribute to this conversation though so here's my 2 cents.

 

I can understand how both sides feel. On one hand, we have a creative, original idea for a character that isn't either blatantly silly, a excuse for a abusive construct or both. Those are pretty rare in my experience. But it is rather disturbing and just a little bit grisly. Its defeinitely not mainstream comic fare which is ok, not all games attempt to emulate mainstream comics. There's nothing innately non heroic about the character, but from the view we were given of it initially a certain gut reaction is to be expected I think.

 

As for the ability itself I would call it a special effect. Overall, the positives and the benefits, IMO, balance out or skew negative. Every now and again based on GM's fiat the character might be able to make some really effective Pre attacks ("You..you can't be...I KILLED YOU!") but think of the negatives. Consider how some reacted to the idea of a being that existed like this, now imagine the PR problems for the character and his team in "real life", the ethical considerations of a genuinely heroic character might have about "stealing" the body of someone's dear departed or how the family and loved ones might react to having the corpse get up and walk away to likely be abandoned (albeit accidently) Heaven knows where. Since I gather the spirit's powers don't halt decomposition any, there are sanitary and asthestic problems to consider. You may even get some new temporary Hunteds ("Looks like Carlos isn't as dead as we thought. Lets fix that.") I'm sure Blue has thought of all these and more though, just tossing out some ideas for consideration.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: A Difficult Power

 

You may even get some new temporary Hunteds ("Looks like Carlos isn't as dead as we thought. Lets fix that.")

 

That's a fun wrinkle. Weekend At Bernie's meets The Crow.

[JMcL63]

Re: A Difficult Power

 

I'd just handwave this as a special effect. After all, a new body every day is going to be as much a problem as a boon. Sometimes an old man, sometimes a child. The commonality should be that the body is always clearly dead to anyone who makes an INT roll or has mystic senses.

 

As for identification, perhaps a special ring with an encrypted ID chip that the character picks up from its hiding place before he goes to HQ...

This is a wacky concept and no mistake! Trebuchet has hit the nail on the head when it comes to approaching it IMO. I don't think there is any point in modelling the daily corpse thing as a power per se, this is the SFX of all the other powers of the character. Beyond this, what are we dealing with? It seems that the concept breaks down into the following elements:

1. The character is a disembodied spirit who can only affect the material world by occupying a corpse.
    
   
2. Being occupied by the spirit accelerates the corpse's decay so that fresh corpses are needed regularly.
    
   

Multiform is the power that comes to my mind here. There could be a basic spirit form. This would have to have desolid on everything, meaning that its powers would be expensive. Most of them would be unable to affect the solid world, though I'd suggest that some powers should be able to do this, because sure as eggs are eggs, sooner or later this character will end up in their desolid form because there are no suitable corpses handy to possess. The possessed form would be the other multiform. There could even be several possessed multiforms, representing different stages of decay if the spirit must possess the same corpse for an extended period.

 

Another thing I would suggest is that the actual powers aren't tied to the multiforms. What I mean by this is that the corpse possessed doesn't actually determine the character's powers, all the possession does is make the spirit's powers usable in the material world. There are several other issues I can think of that need to be addressed to get this concept to work, but that's enough to be going on with.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: A Difficult Power

 

I don't think there is any point in modelling the daily corpse thing as a power per se' date=' this is the SFX of all the other powers of the character.[/quote']

 

Ordinarily, I would agree with you. The only reason I would take the step of making it an actual power is because it happens so often, and it happens at range. If the old bodies wore out slower -- once a month, say -- and if the transfer from an old body to a new one required that they both be in proximity, then I'd just hand-wave it as a special effect.

[Rapier]

Re: A Difficult Power

 

Ordinarily' date=' I would agree with you. The only reason I would take the step of making it an actual power is because it happens so often, and it happens at range. If the old bodies wore out slower -- once a month, say -- and if the transfer from an old body to a new one required that they both be in proximity, then I'd just hand-wave it as a special effect.[/quote']

I agree. There needs to be some unifying power. Why? Because the Master of the Dead is going to run around with his Dispel Spirit and knock you right out of your temporary fleshy fortress of solitude. I wouldn't hand wave a SFX that is going to too juicy as a plot hook to miss.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: A Difficult Power

 

Why? Because the Master of the Dead is going to run around with his Dispel Spirit and knock you right out of your temporary fleshy fortress of solitude.

 

SuperBob: "Gasp! You kill Revenant! You fiend!"

MegaChris: "Um, Bob... Rev was dead already."

SuperBob: "Yeah, I know. Boy, will she be pissed."

[JMcL63]

Re: A Difficult Power

 

Ordinarily' date=' I would agree with you. The only reason I would take the step of making it an actual power is because it happens so often, and it happens at range. If the old bodies wore out slower -- once a month, say -- and if the transfer from an old body to a new one required that they both be in proximity, then I'd just hand-wave it as a special effect.[/quote']You might well be right, in which case as a GM, I'd probably want to rejig the definition of the corpse thing to make it a simple SFX. Maybe replacing the corpse daily is excessive. There're lots of other things you could do, but with a concept like this, I feel that the main thing would be to simplify the execution to leave the whole corpse thing as an SFX. YMMV.