Crippling VPPs

[Sean Waters]

Re: Crippling VPPs

 

There's two (or maybe more) levels of sfx, I believe, and I'll take for my examples FIRE POWERS POOL and GADGETEERING POOL.

 

With your fire powers pool, you can create EBs, Force fileds, maybe justify teleporting, flight, even drains and multiforms, but you'd have to have a fire sfx, so you couldn't come up with an ice EB or a physical RKA (cold flame and solid fire? I think not...) Fire is common enough that there will be enemies with appropriate defences and adjustment powers. I'll call this level one sfx.

 

With your gadgeteering pool, you build a suit of armour that warps gravity to provide a defensive coccoon, you build a gun with teflon bullets, then flight boots that allow you to fly on a jet of fire...and so on. There is still a unifying sfx that can be attacked by appropriate adjustment powers etc, but the sfx is what I'll call level two sfx or metasfx in that it is a single effect that allows you to define pretty much any sfx you like - it is one level up, if you will. In fact if is pretty difficult to define a unifying sfx for gadgets, unless you define a specific sfx for each power; in effect a level one and a level two sfx!

 

Would you extend this to the 'variable' NND defence thing too? Should any given VPP only be able to apply a NND that has one defined defence - unless an advantage is built into the cost of creating the power?

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Crippling VPPs

 

As to the SFX of your VPP you are going to get a limitation on its control cost if you limit it to one SFX. See the Magick only, or Fire Only limitations. If you do not then like a Q or the Beyonder or even lowly Franklin Richards you can do anything you want with any mundane SFX. PERIOD.

 

Hawksmoor

-VPPs are weird beasties instead of fighting the obvious just jump on the VPP bandwagon. VPPs for *everyone*!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Crippling VPPs

 

Take a look a Saviel. She has a tiny VPP that can be used for only for Weapon Familiarities and Weapon Elements. She's an Angel of War, and intrinsically understands any weapon she picks up.

 

Such uses are far more elegant and smooth than trying to cram dozens of skills onto a character.

 

The character Boneface (IIRC) recently posted on the New Circle thread has a skills VPP as well, I think.

 

..elegant, smooth and, well, not allowed under the rules. Skills are considered special powers and shouldn't be in frameworks, otherwise you get the skill VPP

3 point pool (control cost 1, cosmic cost 3, limited, only for skills -1) total 4 points

 

This pool allows you to employ any skill, but only one at a time

 

I know that this sort of thing appears even in commercial products now and then, but is definitely a 'GM permission only' power, and whilst I might allow it in a game where none of the other players had paid for WFs, allowing it if some other schmuck had paid 8 points for common melee, common martial arts, common missile and whip and garotte, when your character is getting it all for half that price is just going to cause resentment.

 

Then you get the ultimate martial arts VPP...you get the idea.

 

I'd be inclined to simlpy buy 3x3 point PSLs to offset the penalties of unfamiliarity and a really chunky KS: weapons to work out which button to press...still cheap at the price!

 

This is a perfect example though of how easy it is to inadventently abuse the VPP: I am sure Saviel is a perfectly reasonable character and (I'm assuming that this is a super-level character, being an Angel of War) WFs are a flavour aspect of the campaign rather than a central part: you are paying points for a bit of character depth rather than to get a real combat advantage out of it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Crippling VPPs

 

As to the SFX of your VPP you are going to get a limitation on its control cost if you limit it to one SFX. See the Magick only, or Fire Only limitations. If you do not then like a Q or the Beyonder or even lowly Franklin Richards you can do anything you want with any mundane SFX. PERIOD.

 

Hawksmoor

-VPPs are weird beasties instead of fighting the obvious just jump on the VPP bandwagon. VPPs for *everyone*!

 

 

Well, I think Zornwil made the point that the sfx thing is not a control cost limit in the system per se: Fred says that VPP powers are 'typically' (which to my mind means 'not necessarily') linked by a common sfx like fire/flame or gadgets. I'd argue that having any sfx you like in effect is worth an advantage on the control cost at very least.

 

The problem, Jack, and The Authority are probably good examples, certainly Hawksmoor, The Engineer and The Doctor: VPPS for everyone tends to be the way things go in high powered campaigns. The villains tend not to get the same breaks (well, Seth, maybe...), but in a game you will get skinned if you take that approach because the villains will be on that band wagon double quick, and there are more of them than there are of you. It turns into a game of rock/paper/scissors, and you are going to lose one time in three.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Crippling VPPs

 

Lest anyone think I am painting myself whiter than white, I have played characters with VPPs. Harrier, for instance had quite a small VPP, about 40 point pool. He mainly used it ramp up one of his other abilities that wasn't in the pool, for example his strength (Older editions sensibly said 'no characteristics in framewords, but characteristics are a standard power now. Bless.) or his EB. Another 40 active points can really make a difference, you know. Oh and the 40 points was of course chosen so that he could get pretty much any power (including desolid).

 

That's a point.

 

Powers in a framework can add to powers not in a framework. Instantly. Try doing that with aid. To get 40 points of power out of an aid you'd need seven dice and a couple of phases, and it fades and costs 70 points (actually more as the VPP has the automatic adbantage it can boost any power or characteristic (pretty much) one at a time) AND, while I''m ranting, aided defences only work at hlaf the points: not so with your VPP. Why do we need aid if we have a VPP? Well, if you want to pay lots more points, you can boost several characteristics simultanously more efficiently than a VPP can, but my point is the existence of the VPP seriously undermines the aid power, which is another argument against it.

 

A 40 point VPP (cosmic) will cost you 40 + 20x3/1.5 (only to add to existing powers and abilities) or about 80 points.

 

A 7d6 aid that can apply to powers linked by sfx one at a time costs 70 x1.25 = 87 points, is slower to use, fades, boosts defences an a 1 point for 2 points basis...

 

Why?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Crippling VPPs

 

...and my point about Harrier, before I sidetracked myself, was that he was horribly powerful and points efficient and generally tended to have an answer for everything and whilst that can be fun, really fun, to play it is no fun at all to watch someone else playing.

[zornwil]

Re: Crippling VPPs

 

There's two (or maybe more) levels of sfx, I believe, and I'll take for my examples FIRE POWERS POOL and GADGETEERING POOL.

 

With your fire powers pool, you can create EBs, Force fileds, maybe justify teleporting, flight, even drains and multiforms, but you'd have to have a fire sfx, so you couldn't come up with an ice EB or a physical RKA (cold flame and solid fire? I think not...) Fire is common enough that there will be enemies with appropriate defences and adjustment powers. I'll call this level one sfx.

 

With your gadgeteering pool, you build a suit of armour that warps gravity to provide a defensive coccoon, you build a gun with teflon bullets, then flight boots that allow you to fly on a jet of fire...and so on. There is still a unifying sfx that can be attacked by appropriate adjustment powers etc, but the sfx is what I'll call level two sfx or metasfx in that it is a single effect that allows you to define pretty much any sfx you like - it is one level up, if you will. In fact if is pretty difficult to define a unifying sfx for gadgets, unless you define a specific sfx for each power; in effect a level one and a level two sfx!

 

Would you extend this to the 'variable' NND defence thing too? Should any given VPP only be able to apply a NND that has one defined defence - unless an advantage is built into the cost of creating the power?

If using this criteria, I'd do the same as with NND, the same benchmark of difficulty to dispel the VPP as it is to ignore an NND.

 

 

As stated, I would allow an Advantage to ignore/offset this if desired. I do that with EC and a lesser bar for VPP.

[zornwil]

Re: Crippling VPPs

 

Lest anyone think I am painting myself whiter than white, I have played characters with VPPs. Harrier, for instance had quite a small VPP, about 40 point pool. He mainly used it ramp up one of his other abilities that wasn't in the pool, for example his strength (Older editions sensibly said 'no characteristics in framewords, but characteristics are a standard power now. Bless.) or his EB. Another 40 active points can really make a difference, you know. Oh and the 40 points was of course chosen so that he could get pretty much any power (including desolid).

 

That's a point.

 

Powers in a framework can add to powers not in a framework. Instantly. Try doing that with aid. To get 40 points of power out of an aid you'd need seven dice and a couple of phases, and it fades and costs 70 points (actually more as the VPP has the automatic adbantage it can boost any power or characteristic (pretty much) one at a time) AND, while I''m ranting, aided defences only work at hlaf the points: not so with your VPP. Why do we need aid if we have a VPP? Well, if you want to pay lots more points, you can boost several characteristics simultanously more efficiently than a VPP can, but my point is the existence of the VPP seriously undermines the aid power, which is another argument against it.

 

A 40 point VPP (cosmic) will cost you 40 + 20x3/1.5 (only to add to existing powers and abilities) or about 80 points.

 

A 7d6 aid that can apply to powers linked by sfx one at a time costs 70 x1.25 = 87 points, is slower to use, fades, boosts defences an a 1 point for 2 points basis...

 

Why?

Aid by default is against others, isn't it?

 

However, in general, there is wonkiness throughout if you explore constructs to give yourself more power as opposed to Aid, it's an "oddity", and you raise a general issue that is well-raised.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Crippling VPPs

 

Aid by default is against others, isn't it?

 

However, in general, there is wonkiness throughout if you explore constructs to give yourself more power as opposed to Aid, it's an "oddity", and you raise a general issue that is well-raised.

 

 

Don't think so, according to FRED, the description reads:

 

...may increase one of his or someone else's....

 

If I remember right, aid used to be 5 points per 1d6 and was made more expensive because it is very useful. VPPs just ignore all the safety features of the power, IMO.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Crippling VPPs

 

With the sole exception of characteristics, it is against the rules to add powers from a framework (or any other place on the character sheet) directly on to another. Naked Advantages in some ways preclude this rule, but in general the GM shouldn't allow a VPP do something gamewise that a MP couldn't do. Such as boosting an EB power bought outside the VPP.

 

VPPs are not an AID workaround.

 

Hawksmoor

[Sean Waters]

Re: Crippling VPPs

 

With the sole exception of characteristics, it is against the rules to add powers from a framework (or any other place on the character sheet) directly on to another. Naked Advantages in some ways preclude this rule, but in general the GM shouldn't allow a VPP do something gamewise that a MP couldn't do. Such as boosting an EB power bought outside the VPP.

 

VPPs are not an AID workaround.

 

Hawksmoor

 

 

...could you direct me to that rule? My reading is that the only 'boosting' restriction is from one framework to another.

[zornwil]

Re: Crippling VPPs

 

Don't think so, according to FRED, the description reads:

 

...may increase one of his or someone else's....

 

If I remember right, aid used to be 5 points per 1d6 and was made more expensive because it is very useful. VPPs just ignore all the safety features of the power, IMO.

Let's be clear on what you're saying and I'm saying.

 

I'm saying Aid can add to someone else's char/power/whatever, though I didn't add that it also includes oneself, true. If your quote was re Aid, sure, of course, Aid is for yourself or others.

 

Whereas I'm saying you can't do that with just having more power in a framework - I can't give Spiderboy more Entangle just because I have 60 points of Entangle jingling around in my VPP. The description you cite is not re this, correct?

[zornwil]

Re: Crippling VPPs

 

...could you direct me to that rule? My reading is that the only 'boosting' restriction is from one framework to another.

I would ask for that cite as well, with all due respect Hawksmoor, I do believe you are allowed to boost powers from MPs (and other frameworks similarly). This works well to construct certain types of powers.

 

A key difference from Aid is in part the inability to boost others directly, but also that unlike Aid this is a set amount, it can't keep being boosted by Aid to the max of the Aid dice, plus you invest your CPs directly into boosting, you can't use them elsewhere - your Aid may be useful elsewhere.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Crippling VPPs

 

A key difference from Aid is in part the inability to boost others directly' date=' but also that unlike Aid this is a set amount, it can't keep being boosted by Aid to the max of the Aid dice, plus you invest your CPs directly into boosting, you can't use them elsewhere - your Aid may be useful elsewhere.[/quote']

 

Aid, Self Only is self-defeating anyway. For 30 active points, 20 real points, I can add up to 18 CP to one of my abilities, but it will take me two attack actions to do so and it will quickly fade away. For 18 real points, I could add 18 CP to that ability permanently, and not need attack rolls or fade rates.

 

It would, however, cost me 36 points if it is a stat above NCM, so Aid, self only, is not quite so stupid an ability in such circumstances.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Crippling VPPs

 

Let's be clear on what you're saying and I'm saying.

 

I'm saying Aid can add to someone else's char/power/whatever, though I didn't add that it also includes oneself, true. If your quote was re Aid, sure, of course, Aid is for yourself or others.

 

Whereas I'm saying you can't do that with just having more power in a framework - I can't give Spiderboy more Entangle just because I have 60 points of Entangle jingling around in my VPP. The description you cite is not re this, correct?

 

 

You are quite right: I'd missed your point: being able to boost someone else is clearly more utility.

 

Of course you could always convert your pool to an aid, or even transform, or...

[zornwil]

Re: Crippling VPPs

 

Aid, Self Only is self-defeating anyway. For 30 active points, 20 real points, I can add up to 18 CP to one of my abilities, but it will take me two attack actions to do so and it will quickly fade away. For 18 real points, I could add 18 CP to that ability permanently, and not need attack rolls or fade rates.

 

It would, however, cost me 36 points if it is a stat above NCM, so Aid, self only, is not quite so stupid an ability in such circumstances.

 

Yes but Aid with the flexibility to go either self or for others, and/or, better, based on SFX, is a different story.

 

Good poitn re NCM.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Crippling VPPs

 

Right. I was perhaps doing more of a house rule/personal interpretation thing that actually quoting a specific passage in the rules. I say this because I can't find where in the rules it says that you cannot just add points to another power. That said buying +5d6 EB "Photon Bolt" and buying 10d6 EB "Photon Bolt" elsewhere seems silly. Compound powers are one thing, but the use of power builds like this seem strange.

 

Hawksmoor

[OddHat]

Re: Crippling VPPs

 

...and my point about Harrier' date=' before I sidetracked myself, was that he was horribly powerful and points efficient and generally tended to have an answer for everything and whilst that can be fun, really fun, to play it is no fun at all to watch someone else playing.[/quote']

 

So the whole "if you don't like it don't allow it" theory just kind of passed you by?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Crippling VPPs

 

So the whole "if you don't like it don't allow it" theory just kind of passed you by?

 

Well, no. What I'm saying with the Harrier example is that the character wasn't designed as a powerhouse killer-character. On paper he looked relatively innocuous, but come actual play time, he turned out to be desperately powerful. As I keep on saying, VPPs can be abusive when there is no intention to use them in that way, and something that is that easily abused needs system/rule limitations either in terms of cost or utility that are simply not present.

 

It is all very well to say 'use common sense', but in my experience common sense is one of thoses commodities that everyone seems to think they have in spades, but can never actually find when they need it, and the only thing common about it is that everyone thinks there's is best.

 

Maybe that's a little harsh: I'm just saying if you leave VPPs open to interpretation as much as they are, you have no safety net. I'd rather see guidelines/rules in place that you can take away with GM permission than have it completely open and leave it to the GM to put guidelines/rules in place. We'll all be working off the same page then.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Crippling VPPs

 

Right. I was perhaps doing more of a house rule/personal interpretation thing that actually quoting a specific passage in the rules. I say this because I can't find where in the rules it says that you cannot just add points to another power. That said buying +5d6 EB "Photon Bolt" and buying 10d6 EB "Photon Bolt" elsewhere seems silly. Compound powers are one thing, but the use of power builds like this seem strange.

 

Hawksmoor

 

Never done this?

 

40 8d6 energy blast

 

20 Multipower (Energy modification)

2 u+4d6 EB (offensive configuration)

2 u 10/10 force field (defensive configuration)

 

Total cost 64

 

You can switch to a big hit or ramp up your defenses. It just depends where you put the energy. Can't see this being objected to. Works the same with a VPP.

[OddHat]

Re: Crippling VPPs

 

Maybe that's a little harsh: I'm just saying if you leave VPPs open to interpretation as much as they are, you have no safety net. I'd rather see guidelines/rules in place that you can take away with GM permission than have it completely open and leave it to the GM to put guidelines/rules in place. We'll all be working off the same page then.

 

An over-complicated and over-priced page that would still end up being "abused" due to a lack of common sense.

 

As soon as you switch from a MP to a VPP the limits of the character become that much more story driven rather than mechanical. It's the entire point of the power, and the reason for the stop sign in the first place. If a GM allows VPPs to be used to conjure up anything, anytime, free of special effect, genre, and dramatic restrictions, then they will completely unbalance the campaign. "So don't do that" is very sound advice under the circumstances, and is exactly the same advice given in regards to 1 Hex Megascale Accurate, Stacking layers of advantages onto a low base point cost power, allowing EDM, allowing movement powers Useable As Attack, and other system bits that risk unbalancing your game. Most of those system bits are there because sometimes they come in handy for simulating this or that genre bit; eventually you have to trust GMs to show the minimal level of common sense needed not to let those powers and constructs be included if they don't fit in a campaign.

 

I guess I should be grateful that you're not complaining over how few points the Champions are built on.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Crippling VPPs

 

An over-complicated and over-priced page that would still end up being "abused" due to a lack of common sense.

 

IYO

 

Me, I'd rather see rules and guidelines that can be abused than an open field where anything could get built.

 

Ah well.

 

What do you say about VPPs doing the same thing as individual powers only cheaper/better, like the EB example or the boost example?

[OddHat]

Re: Crippling VPPs

 

IYO

 

Me, I'd rather see rules and guidelines that can be abused than an open field where anything could get built.

 

Ah well.

 

What do you say about VPPs doing the same thing as individual powers only cheaper/better, like the EB example or the boost example?

 

"Don't do that."

 

 

EDIT: To expand pointlessly, if a player came to me and said "My character can come up with an infinite number of variations on his Energy Blast", first I'd ask how and why. If he had an answer that seemed to fit a concept that was playable ("He's got an amazing Omni-Gun!") I'd tell him to take Variable Advantage, or possibly an Omni-Gun Multi-Power that included a slot with Variable Advantage. If he asked for a Cosmic VPP, Energy Blasts Only, and then asked for a -1 1/2 limit on the control cost, I'd tell him "No." If he took a -1 limit on the control cost I'd compare that price to an EB with Variable Advantage +1; if the cost was about the same, I'd ask him to go for the option that made the most sense in the campaign. Finally, If he started asking to have an endless list of NNDs or AVLDs, I would once again tell him "No".

 

So, "Don't do that."

[OddHat]

Re: Crippling VPPs

 

And to get really pointless:

 

Omni Gun: Variable Power Pool, 10 base + 5 control cost, Cosmic (+2) (25 Active Points); Limited Class Of Powers Available Very Limited (-1), OAF (-1). Real Cost:15 points

 

Omni-Gun: Energy Blast 2d6, Variable Advantage (+1 Advantages; +2) (30 Active Points); OAF (-1). Real Cost:15 points

 

Between the two, the VPP version is more powerful. If I thought it was unbalancing, I'd require the player to take the EB+VarAdv version.

 

As the base points go up, the break point changes:

 

Omni-Gun: Energy Blast 12d6, Variable Advantage (+1 Advantages; +2) (180 Active Points); OAF (-1). Real Cost:90

 

Omni-Gun: Variable Power Pool, 60 base + 45 control cost, Cosmic (+2) (150 Active Points); OAF (-1). Real Cost:105

 

The VPP version is still more powerful even for the price; in most campaigns, I'd probably still ask the player to take the simpler EB VarAdv option.

[Bluefire]

Re: Crippling VPPs

 

Don't have a lot of time, but I wanted to comment. This thread has gone from VPPville and straight into powergaming 101. Game I was in a decade ago was the last time I touched VPPs as a player.. why you may ask, because I made a god. I'm not going to post the mechanics due to it was 4th ed and its insanely broken. BUT I did talk to Bruce Harlick (hero line editor) and he said something to the effect "Rude, but technically legal". That character has never been played since.

 

Opinion time!

The following are broken and there is really no arguing it, because it ALWAYS comes down to the GM. Same could be said about Toon.

 

VPP - it was put in as a catch all because they didn't want to lag the overall system with too many definitions. This ideal is the backbone of Hero and I love it.

 

Adjustment powers... pretty much all of them are broken to one level or another, but king of them is Aid. 5ed should have never let Adjustment powers officially affect frameworks. And put in a rule against Adj. feeding Adj.

 

Multiform IMO was fine in 4ed, but 5ed was like a day at the races. BAM! the gates are open and you have players throwing out 1billion alternate forms. Thats kinda out of the "spirit" of the game isn't it? I like multiform in limited uses, but its too easy to abuse.

 

Summon.. OMG! I spend 56 points and this is what I can do... summon 2048 Competent Normals that are fanatic followers (pg142 5ed). Spend another 90 points and get 16384 Demons that are 100pts total. Now slap them both into a Demonic Elemental Control and you are... um.. broken.

 

I honestly think people focus to much on abilities/Powers/frameworks that have the /!\ sign, or worse the STOP!. Its like collectables. No one likes the commons, everyone wants the rares. My first character was so simple, limited and incredibly fun.

 

For those that are arguing that you have to limit VPPs because a player will use it to find the badguys weakness and exploit it with he power. Yes he will, because he can. He is standing at the fringes of the "spirit" of the genre and when he needs, he will step out for a sec, because he can. Also, a firebased EC/MP with the framework advantage of varible special effects is just as dangerous to the game as any VPP. Group that up with that little thing called "Find Weakness" and you have a Plot-killer in the making. Having a power being applied in unique and different ways is just creative, but give the player a rule he can throw at ya and your in trouble.

 

Again, just my person opinion. And thank you all for these wonderful conversations. I haven't been able to play since I got sick, so this is wonderful in a geeky kinda way.

 

-Jason