Held action, Area attack & Defense against it

[Ethernaut]

Greetings

 

I am having a problem with a power I helped to design. The power is basically a big club defined as an hex-area-attack. Now to the problem: Big Club Guy (BCG) and Speedster Fist Fighter (SFF) fight. At one point BCG tells that he will Hold his Action, until the Speedster has struct him. At that point he will strike the hex Speedster is in with his Big Club. Can SFF somehow avoid the attack?

 

1) DCV won't help, since BCG is attacking the hex and that has only DCV 0.

 

2) Dive for Cover won't work either, since SFF has already struct that segment. (unless it has changed in the fifth edition - I am still using 4th edition since my fifth edition hasn't arrived to the country yet.)

 

3) Blocking sounds somewhat usable, but cannot be used either, because the character has already done something that segment and thus he cannot abort to it. (unless abort-rules have changed)

 

This problem is even worse if the power is ranged attack. The character just Holds his Action until someone does something and blasts the target's hex immediately afterwards.

 

Ether

Edited one "has" to "hasn't". I seem to have a habit of making such mistakes. I apologize in advance for the coming mistakes.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Held action, Area attack & Defense against it

 

Nope, SFF is out of luck. They're gonna get whacked.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Held action, Area attack & Defense against it

 

All of that assumes that BCG will still be standing after SFF has hit him. Won't SFF's attack even knock BCG down? If he's prone, he'll have to waste half a Phase standing up. Or have SFF feint an attack so BCG uses his attack, then DfC out of it's range and counterattack in his next Phase. Or Martial Grab to take the club, or attack the club and break it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Held action, Area attack & Defense against it

 

SFF is pretty much screwed. of course, it would be kinda funny if BCG missed his roll by one and hit himself.

[Ethernaut]

Re: Held action, Area attack & Defense against it

 

Thank you for your replies.

 

Especial thanks for reminding me of Knockdown rules, and the smile that appeared on my face when I read about BCG hitting himself with missed attack roll.

 

In conclusion: Readied ranged area attack messes up most low DEF characters. I had hoped otherwise.

 

The example case has a bit happier ending since it is a melee attack, but still BCG will make a mess.

 

Ether.

[MitchellS]

Re: Held action, Area attack & Defense against it

 

One of the best ways to deal with BCG is have everyone attack him first each phase. That way he might get the idea to start playing the game a little less technically. If he gets knocked down, stunned, knocked out, or even forced to dodge or dive for cover himself a few times he might get the idea.

 

One other idea is to just slightly change the rules. Say that a character can abort to a defensive action after an attack but it costs him his one lost phase and he is only allowed to do a half phase action on his next move. That will force BCG to use some different tactics as well.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Held action, Area attack & Defense against it

 

SFF could change tactics. If he has an attack which works at range, he could use that. He could use a Move By (or similar maneuver), and be out of range unless BCC makes his dex roll by more than SFF does.

 

Or he could Disarm BCG, or Grab his club. If BCG doesn't have the club, suddenly his held phase isn't so useful any more. A Throw would serve a purpose similar to Knockback. A Martial Shove could push BCG back.

 

Or SFF could just keep holding his action. SFF and BCG stare at each other while the battle rages around them. SFF could also change targets, of course.

 

An Entangle would be interesting. "Sorry, you can't swing your big club all wrapped up in that spiderweb."

[Trebuchet]

Re: Held action, Area attack & Defense against it

 

Thank you for your replies.

 

Especial thanks for reminding me of Knockdown rules, and the smile that appeared on my face when I read about BCG hitting himself with missed attack roll.

 

In conclusion: Readied ranged area attack messes up most low DEF characters. I had hoped otherwise.

 

The example case has a bit happier ending since it is a melee attack, but still BCG will make a mess.

Unless this is some kind of "arena" duel, just have SFF switch opponents and let BCG's Area Effect attack bounce off the team brick while SFF takes on someone else. BCG has a good defense against SFF, but it won't do him a bit of good if he just Holds while SFF is racing all over the battlefield taking on other opponents. Light defense characters almost never succeed by straight on attacks against bricks. You have to work the edges and wait for your opponent to make a mistake. I speak from experience.S ooner or later BCG is going to stop Holding and try to act first, and that's when SFF can take him down. Steal or break the club and it's a whole new fight.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Held action, Area attack & Defense against it

 

SFF could change tactics. If he has an attack which works at range, he could use that. He could use a Move By (or similar maneuver), and be out of range unless BCC makes his dex roll by more than SFF does.

 

Or he could Disarm BCG, or Grab his club. If BCG doesn't have the club, suddenly his held phase isn't so useful any more. A Throw would serve a purpose similar to Knockback. A Martial Shove could push BCG back.

 

Or SFF could just keep holding his action. SFF and BCG stare at each other while the battle rages around them. SFF could also change targets, of course.

 

An Entangle would be interesting. "Sorry, you can't swing your big club all wrapped up in that spiderweb."

 

 

I was thinking move by/move through too,assuming SFF can dish out reasonable damage and survive the backlash (bracing against move throughs is a surprisingly effective tactic...watch the speedster bounce off the brick...)

 

When someone has a held action he can't automatically go first - you use a DEX roll. Assuming SFF has a far better DEX roll than BCG, he should be fine.

 

Pretty much any other attack is going to leave him vulnerable...but, we're in wargames territory here, and we should be in role playing territory.

 

Have SFF feint. Go on.

 

He half moves up and PRETENDS to swing a punch. He can roll acting v perception, or do it as a kind of PRE attack, whatever you like, really. SFF will definitely get bonuses the first time he pulls this as BCG is expecting an attack. I'd let the feint be a zero phase action, certainly a PRE attack is, so you've got a half phase - which you hold. If he succeeds, BCG swings, thinking that SFF has no defensive manoeuvres to turn to, and is shocked when he dives for cover, then spends the next couple of actions before BCG gets another go whaling on him.

 

Subsequently BCG doesn't know whether he's being suckered or not, so real attacks probably get a small surprise bonus. If he takes damage he knows the attack was for real, if he doesn't it could have been a feint...or a miss...can he take the chance?

 

It won't work consistently and you can't just keep doing it, but is a tactic everyone should have in their arsenal.

 

Oh, back to wargames territory, don't neglect attacking the club. If you can destroy that, bye-bye AE hex...or grab-by - you can keep trying to take the club off him, he'll soon be panicking as your speed adds to your effective strength.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Held action, Area attack & Defense against it

 

I was thinking move by/move through too' date='assuming SFF can dish out reasonable damage and survive the backlash (bracing against move throughs is a surprisingly effective tactic...watch the speedster bounce off the brick...)[/quote']

 

Been there, done that.

 

And my Brick had Growth as well!

 

Just to add insult to injury, I "Clapped" the twerp as he slid down.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Held action, Area attack & Defense against it

 

Been there, done that.

 

And my Brick had Growth as well!

 

Just to add insult to injury, I "Clapped" the twerp as he slid down.

 

By golly but I love this game!

[Guest Keneton]

Re: Held action, Area attack & Defense against it

 

SFF could attack with a full move maneuver and be away befor BCG attacks.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Held action, Area attack & Defense against it

 

Brilliant idea with the feint TheRealLemming! I was just thinking that myself.

 

I also like the idea of attacking the club. This tactic only works if the attack is really a focus though.

 

Other options could be to switch attacks. If SFF has an Entangle, or a really good grab maneuver, he could use that and BCG couldn't attack him (or find it really difficult). Maybe SFF has a x2 KB attack which could really screw with BCG's plans. Then there's always the ten foot pole ploy....

[Ethernaut]

Re: Held action, Area attack & Defense against it

 

Trebuchet: The example is from an actual arena match, but your suggestion of attacking someone else works well if there are several people fighting (- except if the area attack is ranged.) Thanks.

 

TheRealLemming: Feinting sounds nice. I didn't think of move-by/through either. Move-by might work in the example scenarie. Move through no way. BCG is a stone elemental using a tree trunk as his weapon. SFF is a light weight martial artist. In general move-by&through will work against melee area attackers. Thanks to you too.

 

Oh, and I had thought about attacking the club also, but it seems too unfair, since the character behind SFF has penetrating killing attack. The club is history five times in six hits. (only 1d6K attack)

 

Hugh Neilson: The actual character behing BCG has little Growth & Density Increase also. (15 CPs in each if I remember correctly). He is the PC Brick.

 

Keneton: I am afraid I don't recognize the term "Full Move Maneuver". I am still working with 4th edition here. Thanks for your suggestion anyways.

 

Dust Raven: The example situation was simplified one and I wanted certainty of the basic scenario: SFF hits BCG, who strikes back with his readied action. If SFF does that, she will be crushed. In real situation changing maneuvers sounds like SFF could make it through alive. Also, the real situation in the arena isn't as simple as the example. SFF has some surprises in her sleeve.

 

Thanks to you all. I'll tease you more with my questions some other time. Have fun.

 

Ether.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Held action, Area attack & Defense against it

 

 

Oh, and I had thought about attacking the club also, but it seems too unfair, since the character behind SFF has penetrating killing attack. The club is history five times in six hits. (only 1d6K attack)

 

 

 

DO NOT feel bad about this: BCG got a cost break for buying powers through a focus. If you do not enforce the limitations of focus then you are, in effect, fighting an opponent with a much higher points total.

 

Go on, break his little tree trunk, watch him cry and try and hit you without it. Laugh, slap him about then wake up in hospital later, cursing the dice and the fact he rolled a lucky 3.

 

I love this game.

[Guest Keneton]

Re: Held action, Area attack & Defense against it

 

Full Move Maneuver was defined before 4th, but qualified first in Ninja Hero in 4th. Nevertheless here we go.

 

Its an element used in the construction of martial maneuvers. The most famous is passing strike. SFG would use passing strike on the BCG with say hs +N" of running so that after he his here and gone BCG is left holding like an idiot. BCG could make Dex rolls with SGF when SFG commits, but this generally tilts in SFG's favor as he is the speedter and likely has a higher DEX or bought FastDraw: HTH which always beats a Dex roll.

 

The attack would resolve and SFG would be out of the area.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Held action, Area attack & Defense against it

 

Oh' date=' and I had thought about attacking the club also, but it seems too unfair, since the character behind SFF has penetrating killing attack. The club is history five times in six hits. (only 1d6K attack)[/quote']

 

I echo TRL on the focus issue. As well, BCG's tactics are maximization of the use of his abilities through tactical choices. How is attacking the club when that's the best use of his opponent's abilities any more (or less) "unfair"?

 

Hugh Neilson: The actual character behing BCG has little Growth & Density Increase also. (15 CPs in each if I remember correctly). He is the PC Brick.

 

OK, this reduces the likelihood of knockback (also makes him 12' tall and weight of 6.4 tonnes). It also likely makes the Throw, and maybe the Shove, impractical, as SFF likely can't lift BCG.

 

That moves back to concentrating on the Club, preferably with a (Martial) DisarmMartial Grab targetting the club or a Grab-By, again targetting the club. Ideally, with a Martial Grab agaunst the Club undertaken as part of a Grab-By (I would allow this, since I view Grab By as combining Move By and Grab, and Martial Grab as simply improving a normal Grab). Why is this ideal?

 

- the Grab By should enable your movement speed to add to your Grab STR

- the Martial Grab should also add to your Grab STR

- if you succeed, you can spend your next phase moving the club very far away, and then return to the fight.

- if you fail, you keep moving and stay out of easy HTH range

 

Of course, he may win the Dex-Off and get to take his shot. There's always risk. But this seems the best aproach. If you can't succeed with Disarm or Grab, a series of Move By's against the club should ultimately break it.

 

The bottom line here is that Area Effect (even one hex) is the bane of high DCV low DEF characters (just as high DCV low DEF characters are the bane of low OCV high damage atackers), so you're going to have to use solid tactics, and even then it won't be a sure thing.