Legendary thread

[Sean Waters]

I have heared hushed mention of a mythical thread discussion the rationalisation of powers to reduce or remove overlap. I've heard it suggested that we could get away with as few as four powers (presumably Attack, Defend, Move and 'Do all the other stuff').

 

Got me thinking about a few powers - the logical groupings like most of the adjustment powers which seem to me to be one or two basic effects modified by advantages and limitations, the movement powers (ditto) and the sense-affecting powers.

 

There seems to be a case for somer rationalisation (just take a look at the arguments over shapeshift and how it overlaps with other powers). Is there anything you would like to see merged?

[Doppler]

Re: Legendary thread

 

I kind of like the way WEG Star Wars grouped all Jedi powers-

 

Control (controlling your own body and mind)

 

Sense

 

and Alter (change things outside yourself)

 

Presumably, that would allow Defend and Move to fold into Control, Sense would be seperate (or perhaps roll it into Control as well), and Alter would do all the other stuff (Attacks, adjustments, UAA powers, Force Wall, Transform).

 

So upon further review, I would collapse everything into Control and Alter- with tons of adders and advantages and limitations.

 

That's as much as I can say on this topic, for the reason that follows:

 

When TWERPS released their superhero genre pamphlet, everything boiled down to one number, recorded on your character sheet. Everything else was SFX. But nobody holds up TWERPS as a viable alternative to HERO.

[Phil]

Re: Legendary thread

 

This is something I've given a lot of thought to myself, although never actually completed.

 

Among these powers you might have:

Adjust - includes all adjustment powers, as well as attacks, defences, growth and shrinking. All of these powers either add to or detract from characteristics. Some are constant, others are instant, but all use a variant of the same basic mechanic.

Movement

Create - covers Entangle, Force Wall and some Transforms

Mental - covers mental powers with Ego+X mechanic

 

Those few 'absolute' powers, such as Invisibility and Desolidifcation struggle to fit into any 'pure' effect-based model.

 

Phil

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Legendary thread

 

Those few 'absolute' powers' date=' such as Invisibility and Desolidifcation struggle to fit into any 'pure' effect-based model.[/quote']

 

Do you think then that they shouldn't be so absolute?

 

Desolidification is used to avoid attacks. It could be possible to allow a contest that used the desolid to avoid damage the same way you'd use defences.

 

Desolidification is also used to pass through objects. I'd have a contest that pitched the desolid power against the DEF of the object to see whether it allowed passage.

 

Invisibility would simply be a contest between the perception of one person against the invisibility power of another. Yes it makes invisibility less absolute but then it would come into line with other Hero powers.

 

I'd be in favour of something that more obviously played on the effect based meta-design of the system.

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Legendary thread

 

Desolidification is also used to pass through objects. I'd have a contest that pitched the desolid power against the DEF of the object to see whether it allowed passage.

 

This aspect of Desolid could also be viewed as a movement power. What does it do that Tunnelling with IPE and Close Tunnel can't accomplish? In a different structure, Desolidification would be SFX for a form of invulnerability/high defenses + Tunnelling.

[Phil]

Re: Legendary thread

 

Desolidification is used to avoid attacks. It could be possible to allow a contest that used the desolid to avoid damage the same way you'd use defences.

 

Desolidification is also used to pass through objects. I'd have a contest that pitched the desolid power against the DEF of the object to see whether it allowed passage.

 

Invisibility would simply be a contest between the perception of one person against the invisibility power of another. Yes it makes invisibility less absolute but then it would come into line with other Hero powers.

 

I have actually been thinking about this recently, as I re-read FREd cover-to-cover. And my conclusions are:

(1) to turn HERO into a 'pure' effects based system, Invisibility and Desolid are among the powers in need of reform, similarly to how you suggest (and for Desolid at least, that's how DC Heroes handled it).

(2) the cost-benefit for the amount of effort this would take is probably not worth it!

 

Phil

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Legendary thread

 

(2) the cost-benefit for the amount of effort this would take is probably not worth it!

 

 

When you make your millions you can buy into DoJ and change things!

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Legendary thread

 

Do you think then that they shouldn't be so absolute?

 

Desolidification is used to avoid attacks. It could be possible to allow a contest that used the desolid to avoid damage the same way you'd use defences.

 

Desolidification is also used to pass through objects. I'd have a contest that pitched the desolid power against the DEF of the object to see whether it allowed passage.

 

Invisibility would simply be a contest between the perception of one person against the invisibility power of another. Yes it makes invisibility less absolute but then it would come into line with other Hero powers.

 

I'd be in favour of something that more obviously played on the effect based meta-design of the system.

 

Doc

 

FWIW in Third Edition and earlier Champions, the movement capacity for Desolidification was tied to the BODY of the material to be moved through: 1 BODY of material per Phase for every 5 Active Points in the Power. Otherwise it and Invisibility functioned more or less as they do now.

[Ganesh]

Re: Legendary thread

 

I've been working, on and off, on cobbling together something that 'streamlines' hero while preserving the flexibility and precision. My list is currently down to ~12 powers--

 

BodyModification (also includes armor, stun capacity, END reserve, damage reduction and other passive effects where having the power on rather than "using it" is important, buying off disads (like that pesky "Needs Air to Survive" and "Has a Discernible Identity") and many form-changing effects can be bought--for example, a no-range blast can be bought as part of BodyModification for your clawed werewolf form, as can extra strength and Jumping, or more senses or skills)

 

ChangeEnvironment

 

Images (includes invisibility, flash, and darkness. Normally absolute, use RSR to give the uncertain effect of Images in Hero)

 

Summoning/Creation (for forcewalls, some entangles, summoning, duplication, object creation, and can be used for Multiform with proper modifications and some Control)

 

Jump (make it constant for Flight, Extradimentional for EDM, etc...also the basic power behind telekinesis, which is just controlled, invisible movement of things at a distance)

 

Adjustment (an advantage allows this to add or remove powers or disadvantages)

 

Blast

 

Command (can be used to build possession-style Mind Control and the like, doesn't actually (as far as I can tell) exist in Hero. How would you do "I can turn on and drive cars at range"?)

 

and "Fortune" is a sort of power/disadvantage that combines fudging rolls with affecting the plot...

------------------

"Perception" and "Movement" are skills with enhancers, as is Missile Deflection.

 

Powers are by default ranged, cost no END, visible when used, have an Instant duration, and require no time to activate. Enhancers are limiters allow you to change that.

 

Desolid can either be built as Jump (constant, extradimentional, costs end) with a linked extradimentional sense with the "visible at point of sense" limitation, or it can be build with 100% damage reduction and constant indirect movement for being able to walk through walls and other people.

 

Most of the mental powers are bought with suites of advantages and disadvantages like "Must overcome (attribute) to be effective" "Invisible except to mental sense group" and "Lasts until Breakout Roll is made." Mind Control as it exists in Hero is built as an Adjustment that is reduced by Ego, has a duration of "breakout," and gives the subject various compulsions as disadvantages.

 

 

I'm not sure how to usefully collapse things down more, without combining effects that have totally disparate and nongeneralizing mechanics.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Legendary thread

 

FWIW in Third Edition and earlier Champions' date=' the movement capacity for Desolidification was tied to the BODY of the material to be moved through: 1 BODY of material per Phase for every 5 Active Points in the Power. Otherwise it and Invisibility functioned more or less as they do now.[/quote']

 

I remember that. It was always absolute for damage though.

 

My favourite part of previous editions was the END Battery calculations. If there was ever a part of Champions that was math heavy it was END Batteries...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Legendary thread

 

I remember that. It was always absolute for damage though.

 

My favourite part of previous editions was the END Battery calculations. If there was ever a part of Champions that was math heavy it was END Batteries...

 

...but by golly they were interesting and powerful constructs: you could have a limitation that effectively increased the power. Kewl.

 

I'd forgotten about desolid being a movement power with bells and whistles, but it makes you think, doesn't it?

 

I would be inclined to have a sense effecting group rather than have it all done with skills as you'd need 'impossible' skills to do X-ray vision and so on, and the same group could be used to effect both the character - by increasing the range of things that can be perceived or the degree to which they can be perceived OR to effect a target by reducing their accuracy of perception (creating images) or ability to perceive (creating invisibility/darkness/flash).

 

I think Hero is kind of on the way to doing this already with the categories of Adjustment/Attack/Body/Defence/Sensory/Special etc powers.

 

If you were to standardise powers so that everything cost a basic 5 points per 1d6 and then modify with advantage limitations it has costs implications that you may or may not like.

 

Taking adjustment powers one option would be to have a base cost of 5 points for 1d6 added to or subtracted from a target (you chose for each dice), only whilst power is maintained. This creates a basic supress or succor effect and that would be your basic effect. To create a dispel, add the -1 'all or nothing' limitation: power can not be maintained but if completely removed needs to be re-activated. For a drain or aid add the +1 advantage 'doesn't need to be maintained but points recover/fade at 5 per full turn'. For an additional +1 advantage you can subtract points from one target and add the points to yourself, thus creating the transfer effect.

 

This would not have any effect for purchasing the basic power in terms of cost per dice, but the effect of other advantages and limitations would be interesting. Take, for example the following examples. First the basic effect as suggested baove, then the same thing bought with a +1/2 advantage (say armour piercing) then bought with a -1/2 limitation (say OIF). Finally the cost of the powers bought with the same advantages and limitations as they are now.

 

In each case will illustrate with a 6 dice effect.

 

Dispel

Basic 6 dice = 30 points, 'dispel limitation' (-1) (AP=30) RP=15

+1/2 advantage = 22 (AP=45)

-1/2 limitation = 12 (AP=30)

 

Currently 6 dice = 18 points (AP=18)

+1/2 advantage = 27 points (AP=27)

-1/2 limitation = 12 points (AP=18)

 

Supress

Same basic cost so same application of advantages and limitations.

 

Aid/Drain

 

Basic 6 dice = 30 points, 'drain advantage' (+1) (AP=60) RP=60

+1/2 advantage = 75 (AP=75)

-1/2 limitation = 40 (AP=60)

 

Currently 6 dice = 60 points (AP=60)

+1/2 advantage = 90 points (AP=90)

-1/2 limitation = 40 points (AP=60)

 

The dispel example doesn't work out well as there is not a limitation you can apply to get from 5 points to 3 points per dice in one jump (you could apply a +1/2 then a -1 1/2, but Hero is complicated enough as it is!. If you did then the points would work out as follows:

 

Dispel

Basic 6 dice = 30 points, 'switches power right off if AP exceeded' advanatge (+1/2) and 'instant all or nothing effect' limitation (-1.5) (AP=45) RP=18

+1/2 advantage = 24 (AP=60)

-1/2 limitation = 15 (AP=45))

 

Really not quite sure what my point is other than it does have costs implications: generally it will reduce the impact of advantages and limitations on cost. I can't say whether that is a good thing in and of itself: it may be, but if it is not then it has to be set against the potential advantages of a rationalisation of the power buying structure.

 

Comments?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Legendary thread

 

I was looking at rpg.net and one of the anti-Hero comments was that there are a lot of characteristics which don't have much in-game effect.

 

OK this betrays a basic failure to understand. Have to accept there are a lot of characteristics (I can't think of a game with more) but they are not exactly rocket science and most of them do get used regularly (moreso than say CON in D&D)

 

I had a look through and I think all characteristics except Comeliness do have regular in-game effect, and apart from Comeliness the only other one we could lose without some relatively deep changes is intelligence.

 

We would assume that everyone is of 'average' intellect and perception and buy non-standard intellect and perception with either a disadvantage or as skill levels or a talent. It would make more sense in any event, IMO, as being able to think your way quickly and eficciently through a three dimensional chess problem shouldn't necessarily mean that you have good eyesight.

 

We can do this as INT is only ever important in multiples of 5, for skill checks and doesn't relate to a figured characteristic and is not a target charcteristic for resisting powers. Every other characteristic either adds to figured, so we need an exact value, is used as a target characteristic for attacks (like PRE being used for PRE attacks) or has to be divided by 5 for some things, like skill checks, or 3 for others, like attack values (DEX and EGO).

 

We could probably stand to get rid of PRE too and have the target for PRE attacks always be EGO. You'd then buy PRE skill levels or PRE attack bonus dice seperately (a base PRE attack would be 2d6, and you could buy extra dice at 5 per, with a -1 limitation 'only for PRE attacks).

 

What else? Well we have figured characteristics but they are kinda important. We could seperate DEX and SPD and set SPD at a basic 2 which you can buy up at 10 points per. Then we could reduce the cost of DEX to 2 per.

 

We could rejig combat values to work on CHAR/5 not CHAR/3. This would make skill levels more important, and if we did that we could remove DEX altogether and do it with skill levels. If you then assumed that everyone has a basic 10 point resistance to EGO attacks and you buy up either PRE defence or Mental Defence or Ego Skill levels, you could ditch EGO too.

 

Of course getting rid of all these charcateristicsc and their interactions just means that you'll need to put more thought and effort into buying skills and powers.

 

I could go on but the absurdity of much of my rant should be evident by now: we use what we've got and we have a lot because the system has a lot of detail. We could lose COM and INT in my opinion without any tears and if having 12 characteristics rather than 14 made more people buy it then all to the good, but there is only so far we can go without Hero becoming just like everything else.

[Phil]

Re: Legendary thread

 

haha, now you're talking my language.

 

COM - yup, I get rid of this. Attractiveness is more a roleplaying hook than anything else - if everyone wants to be gorgeous, let em.

INT - keep this purely because of its skill impact. Skills, in a sense, are a type of figured characteristic after all.

DEX - Can be easily split. My favourites are Agility (relating to SPD, DCV and gross motor coordination skills), Dexterity (relating to fine-work Dex skills) and Accuracy (relating to OCV).

 

I think PRE and EGO should be kept separate, representing charisma and willpower. But, as with so many elements of the Hero System, such tweaks are eminently feasible.

 

Re: CHAR/5, I go the opposite way. I like everything to be based off CHAR/3, as this increases the granularity of the system. Assuming all CHARs follow the STR 5 points = x2 progression, CHAR/5 skill rolls dont seem to reflect that degree of difference.

 

And if you're worried about number of characteristics, remember there are also Power Defence, Mental Defence and Flash Defence: might start with a base value of 0, but they are effectively CHAR too!

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Legendary thread

 

...I would be inclined to have a sense effecting group rather than have it all done with skills as you'd need 'impossible' skills to do X-ray vision and so on' date=' [/quote']

 

My thoughts were along the lines that you would have an ability to percieve common to everyone. lets call that ability Percieve. Whenever someone wanted to check something out they would roll their Percieve against whatever difficulty they faced (environmental conditions, invisibility powers darkness powers etc).

 

If I didn't want someone to use Percieve against my invisibility power then I should buy a 'Super' adder to my invisibility that means that only 'Super' powers could be used to see me. Obviously you could buy a 'Super' adder for Percieve as well but then it would be SuperPercieve.

 

SuperPercieve could be used for all normal situations but it would also be useful against those Super powers such as SuperInvisibility.

 

That way the characters could decide whether they wanted a power that was absolute against normal perceptions or whether it would simply make it really difficult for those of normal ability to see them....

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Legendary thread

 

haha, now you're talking my language.

 

COM - yup, I get rid of this. Attractiveness is more a roleplaying hook than anything else - if everyone wants to be gorgeous, let em.

INT - keep this purely because of its skill impact. Skills, in a sense, are a type of figured characteristic after all.

DEX - Can be easily split. My favourites are Agility (relating to SPD, DCV and gross motor coordination skills), Dexterity (relating to fine-work Dex skills) and Accuracy (relating to OCV).

 

I think PRE and EGO should be kept separate, representing charisma and willpower. But, as with so many elements of the Hero System, such tweaks are eminently feasible.

 

Re: CHAR/5, I go the opposite way. I like everything to be based off CHAR/3, as this increases the granularity of the system. Assuming all CHARs follow the STR 5 points = x2 progression, CHAR/5 skill rolls dont seem to reflect that degree of difference.

 

And if you're worried about number of characteristics, remember there are also Power Defence, Mental Defence and Flash Defence: might start with a base value of 0, but they are effectively CHAR too!

 

I think I agree on the CHAR/3 thing: I don't mind high skill totals as I feel it is more of a licence to be realistic about applying penalties. I mean if you have a 21 DEX, outside normal characteristic maxima, I'd expect you to be pretty darn dextrous, and 13- doesn't really cut it for me. At 16- (based on CHAR/3) you would succeed at basic skill tests pretty much all of the time but as a GM I wouldn't feel bad about applying a -1 or -2 because it is raining. If you are starting off at 13- then it is almost unfair to do so. At -2 for rain the World's most Destrous (Normal) Woman is still going to catch the ball the majority of the time whereas a competent normal with no particular skill will be dropping it half of the time.

 

I might start at 8+CHAR/3 (instead or 9+CHAR/5) to leave 'competent normals' at 11- rather than upping it to 12-.

 

The other thing is this would add granularity: Joe Shmoe with characteristics of 8 and a competent normal with characteristics of 10 would have a different characteristic roll, which I see as a good thing.

 

Like that.

 

On the other hand I wouldn't be inclined to split DEX (and wind up with more charcteristics) as you can buy SPD or DCV or OCV levels seperately and define them as inherent rather than learned skills and you can buy skill levels to use with DEX skills if you want to emphasise that aspect (I'd let you buy slightly cheaper ones only to apply to agility or only to apply to manual dexterity tasks. If you want an ancient watchmaker buy a low DEX and lots of skill levels with watchmaking.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Legendary thread

 

My thoughts were along the lines that you would have an ability to percieve common to everyone. lets call that ability Percieve. Whenever someone wanted to check something out they would roll their Percieve against whatever difficulty they faced (environmental conditions, invisibility powers darkness powers etc).

 

If I didn't want someone to use Percieve against my invisibility power then I should buy a 'Super' adder to my invisibility that means that only 'Super' powers could be used to see me. Obviously you could buy a 'Super' adder for Percieve as well but then it would be SuperPercieve.

 

SuperPercieve could be used for all normal situations but it would also be useful against those Super powers such as SuperInvisibility.

 

That way the characters could decide whether they wanted a power that was absolute against normal perceptions or whether it would simply make it really difficult for those of normal ability to see them....

 

 

Doc

 

I'm willing to be convinced, but a few questions first...

 

How would it work for a power like silence - you can't be heard. Would that be bought with the same sor tof cost structure we have at present or as a limitation on yout invisibility power?

 

What of the situation where you are dealing with animals or even other races who do not have the basic 5 senses - they have more or less, and possibly in different proportion: how would you handle that with the Perceive structure?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Legendary thread

 

I'm willing to be convinced' date=' but a few questions first...[/quote']

 

Well there's a start. I'm not sure I'm selling anything just now but I'll pretend that I am!

 

How would it work for a power like silence - you can't be heard. Would that be bought with the same sor tof cost structure we have at present or as a limitation on yout invisibility power?

 

Silence is just an audio invisibility. You would contest your silence power against someone else's Percieve. If the Percieve wins then they hear you otherwise they don't. If you purchase the super adder then normal Percieve has no chance of hearing you.

 

I haven't got a contest system in front of me but presume we're using the basic Hero contest mechanic (success is a roll less than 11+OCV-DCV).

 

I'm looking at a successful perception roll being less than 11+Percieve-Modifiers. Modifiers could be environmental such as being close to a revving engine or could be due to a power such as Silence.

 

Silence could be bougjt on its own and I suppose that you would extend the applicability with adders to the main power. So Silence could have sub powers of invisibility and other perception beating powers.

 

I would move away from having a recognised structure to buying the powers. you might start with Invisibility or you might start with Silence and then you would be able to broaden the powers if you can justify them within the same power construct.

 

If you couldn't justify the effects within the same power construct then you would buy Silence seperately from Invisibility. I think that would work the same way frameworks do now.

 

 

What of the situation where you are dealing with animals or even other races who do not have the basic 5 senses - they have more or less' date=' and possibly in different proportion: how would you handle that with the Perceive structure?[/quote']

 

If the animal has less than the basic five senses then that would be represented through disadvantages. Someone who has the disadvantage Blind would not have any opportunity to apply its Percieve ability to see something.

 

 

Doc

[Ganesh]

Re: Legendary thread

 

Hmm...that sounds like superskills. Contest you SuperStealth against my SuperPercetion, and we'll see who succeeds...oh, you have SuperSuperStealth? Sorry, my bad. Let me know if your fringe covers my character and then I can check.

 

substitute "disguise" for "stealth" for many of the effects of shapeshift.

 

It's reminding me of HeroQuest, where everything's an ability--no difference between skills and powers. Each "super" is effectively a couple masteries. Which is an interesting development, given that I tend to think of Hero and HeroQuest as being two diametrically opposed systems...in heroquest, the special effects ARE the mechanics.

 

 

I'd actually been thinking of something along the lines of the rules for sense groups. Perception is the useful skill for every sense group you have. Sight, Tactile, Chemical, Mental, etc. groups are prebuilt, but you can add capabilities to them (generally, something that would be a +1/2 advantage seems to be about +10 points to the cost of the sense group) like adding Indirect to get n-ray vision. "Projection" is something that some sense groups have for most people -- we can speak, and 2-way radios can broadcast and receive.

 

Now, normally, the projection is obviously discernible as being a specific character, especially to anyone with discriminatory or analyze.

 

But using images as a model, we could extend that...for 1.5x the cost of "having a voice" you can have any voice (more if you need to minim particular people), for for 2x the cost of "having a voice" you could make any noise (perhaps you're robot, with speakers?)

 

Range Vision Projection effectively makes holograms. And projecting the image of "nothing here" could be used to obscure things, or make them invisible, or blanket areas in impenetrable fog or darkness.

[zornwil]

Re: Legendary thread

 

THe notion of collapsing the current powers and such to core powers is, I think, ultimately necessary to challenge our notions of balance and rationalizing the powers, but as an actual "HERO System Rules" deployment, I don't think it would work, nor can I think of instances that really "need" this approach in the current rules except perhaps some stuff in the Adjustments Powers area. The reason we need to keep these powers more often broken out is that people have enough trouble grasping the system's inversion of reasoning by effect without making that seem more abstract by reducing the powers and then forcing one to derive details from that. Long-time HEROites would probalby adapt just fine, but for newbies it seems too great a barrier - particularly given a common gripe is that people don't understand why they can't buy "Fire Powers" or "Chemical Attack" or the like.