Putting out the flames

[Sean Waters]

I was building a character (Spitfire) for a forthcoming game, and in her fire EC I wanted her to be able to put out fires as well as start them.

 

Started with supress but I don't think that would work - the fire would come back as soon as you stopped.

 

Dispel or drain seem better. OK. Then I got thinking...

 

How do you work out the active points of a fire that wasn't built with character points. I mean, you know how much damage it does so you have a starting point, but is it one big fire (with AE and increased radius) or a series of little ones? That makes a big difference both for targetting and AP cost, and do you need an area effect to stop fires or can you treat a fire as a single target?

 

Thoughts?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Putting out the flames

 

If I didn't do the effect as a Change Environment, I'd probably work out the flame on a "by the hex" basis. for simplicity sake, I'd probably just use the active points of the killing attack per hex, possibly modified with the +1/2 for AOE-1 hex. I figure all the other various flame effects kinda work themseles out pointwise unless someone is actively paying for it. And I'd drop by GM caveat that as its basically an ongoing Uncontrolled effect, if the Supress or Drain took it down to 0 points that hex is extinguished.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Putting out the flames

 

Suppress work just fine. If it reduces the Active Points in the fire to 0, the fire "shuts off". So unless someone actually lights a new fire, it will stay out.

 

Dispel works just as good, but is all or nothing. With Suppress you can weaken a fire without actually putting it out.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Putting out the flames

 

Cheers chaps: what about active points? I agree with ANB that it makes sense to deal with it as 'one hex is one target, but even then fire is probably uncontrolled continuous and sticky, which is going to be a +2 advantage so even a 1d6KA will have 45 active points: it is going to be quite hard to put out even a little fire!

[Constantine]

Re: Putting out the flames

 

I think you need to go change environment. Trying to suppress or dispel something that someone else didn't pay point for doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Buy change environment, then buy suppress or dispell to put out peoples fire powers.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Putting out the flames

 

I think you need to go change environment. Trying to suppress or dispel something that someone else didn't pay point for doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Buy change environment' date=' then buy suppress or dispell to put out peoples fire powers.[/quote']

 

Potentially VERY powerful effect for CE though.....

[Constantine]

Re: Putting out the flames

 

Is it really anymore powerful than using CE for weather manipulation?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Putting out the flames

 

Cheers chaps: what about active points? I agree with ANB that it makes sense to deal with it as 'one hex is one target' date=' but even then fire is probably uncontrolled continuous and sticky, which is going to be a +2 advantage so even a 1d6KA will have 45 active points: it is going to be quite hard to put out even a little fire![/quote']

 

Actually, I think you may have your answer right there. Part of the Uncontrolled Advantage is that there must be "a reasonably common and obvious set of circumstances that will turn it off." (5E p. 175)

 

So, assuming that a natural fire was "built" using that Advantage, it just becomes a matter of defining what type and magnitude of Power you feel would be appropriate to shut it down. In the case of Suppress, Dispel or Drain vs. Fire, my suggestion would enough of any of them to shut down a Power with Active Points equivalent to the "Base Points" in the fire, as suggested by the amount of damage it does. OTOH if the SFX of the Dispel etc. Power is that it creates water to douse the fire, you might rule that prolonged use of it would eventually stop the Uncontrolled part of any magnitude of fire. A Change Environment which caused rain or intense cold could be treated the same way.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Putting out the flames

 

Regarding Dispel, my personal rule of thumb is that every 2 BODY of effect snuffs 1 hex of effect -- but I usually prefer Change Environment for this effect.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Putting out the flames

 

Cheers chaps: what about active points? I agree with ANB that it makes sense to deal with it as 'one hex is one target' date=' but even then fire is probably uncontrolled continuous and sticky, which is going to be a +2 advantage so even a 1d6KA will have 45 active points: it is going to be quite hard to put out even a little fire![/quote']

What Lord Liaden said.

 

Basically, I just say this if you have bought/rolled enough Dispel/Suppress to kill the Power if it didn't have those Advantages on it, you'd have enough.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Putting out the flames

 

Utilising the 'uncontrolled' switch off condition. Nice thinking. I'd been shying away from CE because it meant you needed two different mechanics for putting out fires depending if they were 'natural' or 'power-based', but defining the 'switch off' condition of a hex of 'natural' fire as drain/dispel/supressing 15 point per 1d6 killing damage works well. If you think of fire as sticky, it might not stay out for long, but it's a start!

 

EDIT: I'd spread some rep, but it appears I have been doing so too much, so I have to sit over here until i calm down a bit: but I will remember you!

[Fenixcrest]

Re: Putting out the flames

 

My general ruling on Uncontrolled fire is that it can be put out by anything that can put out normal fire, as well as Drain/Supress/Transfer.

Continuous fire, constatnly fed by incoming END sans Uncontrolled, on the other hand... XD

 

Well, let's just say that it's fun to see the look on the player's face when he dives into the pool to escape the flames that engulfed his body after the pyrokinetic villain snapped his fingers, and the flames don't go out.

 

"Well, Captain Amazing is still on fire. On the other hand, he won't be soggy after this, since the water is flash-evaporating before it can touch him."

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Putting out the flames

 

Utilising the 'uncontrolled' switch off condition. Nice thinking. I'd been shying away from CE because it meant you needed two different mechanics for putting out fires depending if they were 'natural' or 'power-based', but defining the 'switch off' condition of a hex of 'natural' fire as drain/dispel/supressing 15 point per 1d6 killing damage works well. If you think of fire as sticky, it might not stay out for long, but it's a start!

 

The fire being Sticky would help it to spread, of course, but once you've shut off the Uncontrolled effect everywhere the fire has been burning, Sticky wouldn't matter since the "Power" has been turned off - there's nothing left to Stick to anything.

 

Of course in the real world you have to continue to cool down combustibles even after a fire is out until they're no longer hot enough to reignite, but IMO that can be covered by Special Effects.

[Lightray]

I believe that there was a Fire Extinguisher given as an example power-build for Suppress in FREd. (no idea if it's in 5eR).

 

Work backwards. Typical fires of ~1 hex size are easily extinguished by even a home-sized fire extinguisher. So you therefore know their Active Points must be lower than the total active points the example Extinguisher can Suppress.

 

There's your Active Points/hex cost for a "standard" fire. Set that as 1 DC. Multiply by the # of DC for more intense fires, and by the # hexes for larger fires.

 

Once you're done with that, wonder if maybe you might have something more productive to do than worry about the active points of typical fires for an EC power that's likely going to see limited in-combat use, anyway.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Putting out the flames

 

I believe that there was a Fire Extinguisher given as an example power-build for Suppress in FREd. (no idea if it's in 5eR).

 

Work backwards. Typical fires of ~1 hex size are easily extinguished by even a home-sized fire extinguisher. So you therefore know their Active Points must be lower than the total active points the example Extinguisher can Suppress.

 

There's your Active Points/hex cost for a "standard" fire. Set that as 1 DC. Multiply by the # of DC for more intense fires, and by the # hexes for larger fires.

 

Once you're done with that, wonder if maybe you might have something more productive to do than worry about the active points of typical fires for an EC power that's likely going to see limited in-combat use, anyway.

 

Productive? What are you, my boss?

 

There's a chapter in FRED devoted to this stuff and it doesn't mention turning it off, just how it might damage you. In the average disaster, fire is a real problem and dealing with it realistically (or at least game realistically) can add a lot of flavour.