Invisible to Touch Group?

[Guest lucky]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

How is this qualitatively any different than the Shadow "clouding men's minds?" Which I think most people would buy as Invisibility.

Thank you, I was trying to think of more examples of this power from various genres. The Shadow is exactly right, as is a comic-book telepath's ability to hide herself from the crowd (as Professor X does many times in both the X-Men comics and the movies). For those of you familiar with Vampire: the Masquerade, the power of 'Obfuscate' works along similar lines as well.

 

I think austenandrews argued this better than I could have: I understand that this power brushes up against the boundaries of other Powers (people have mentioned Desolidification and Shapeshift), but if properly explained to a GM I still think that Invisibility would be the best way to create the effect I'm looking for.

 

For example, Desolidification strikes me as a poor choice because of all the Limitations I'd have to assign to it. I couldn't go through solid objects, or under a door, or even between widely-spaced prison bars. Heck, I couldn't even use it to walk properly down the aisle of a commercial jetliner. The only (IMO, extremely narrow) application of this hypothetical Desolidifcation would be to permit the character to walk through a crowd without anyone noticing the sensation of being brushed by.

 

For such limited cases, "Invisibility to Touch Group" seems more appropriate.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

How is this qualitatively any different than the Shadow "clouding men's minds?" Which I think most people would buy as Invisibility. Lucky's point is that adding Touch to the mix is appropriate. Of course it will have modifiers to make it into a telepathy-based power.

 

If you want to talk about edge cases where it breaks down, you can do that with any Power construct. Even Mind Control isn't going to work in the case where a person is picked up and flung to the ground, unless you get a really high roll, which doesn't scale in terms of points. At some point you're talking about an "absolute" power, which we all know Hero doesn't do well. Better to focus on the common case and whether a construct simulates the effect.

 

 

It sounds like you're arguing from Powers, not SFX. By that logic mind-based invisibility is necessarily Mental Illusions, too, because you're just "making them think they don't see you."

No, I'm not arguing from Powers. He is talking about the SEP field. He isn't invisibile to touch because people can in theory touch him.

 

Okay, the mentalist is standing in the middle of the road. A paper delivery boy is in a hurry to make it back home on his bike. The mentalist doesn't see him coming for whatever reason and obviously the boy doesn't see him. WHAM! Move Through.

 

What happened? They boy obviously had something happen to him. His bike is wrecked, he was scraped up, papers are very where. An SEP doesn't make touch NOT happen. It makes the person think it was something else. That is clearly not Invisibility. I would rule Mental Illusions Trigger would be the best way to design it for that desired Special Effect. His mind makes him think his bike flipped or something.

[austenandrews]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

What happened? They boy obviously had something happen to him. His bike is wrecked' date=' he was scraped up, papers are very where. An SEP doesn't make touch NOT happen. It makes the person think it was something else. That is clearly not Invisibility.[/quote']

Again, why not? The Shadow doesn't make people not see him, he makes them not realize they've seen him. If you were to hypnotize the person or read his mind, you'd discover that he did see the Shadow. I don't see how this is any different.

 

The kid rides his bike, slams into the character and wrecks. Without Invisibility v.s. Touch, he would have felt a person at the point of impact. He'd wonder why he felt someone when nobody was there (assuming the character is also Invisible to sight, etc.). With Invisibility v.s. Touch, he doesn't. He wonders why the heck he crashed when he didn't even feel anything at the point of impact.

 

Furthermore, the character can then climb onto the kid's shoulders and the kid won't feel it. He'll wonder why he feels so weighed down, but he won't feel the character sitting on him.

 

Invisibility v.s. Touch doesn't imply Desol effects any more than Invisibility v.s. Sight implies immunity to Flash or lasers. And it's just one component of the power that lucky is describing.

[Guest lucky]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

The choice of special effect is very important. What you have described is mind control' date=' not invisibility. You [b']can[/b] be percieved but you demand that the target ignore you.

No disrespect intended, but isn't that splitting hairs? Whether the character is bending light, employing psionic suggestion or über stealth skills, the net result is what's important, right?

 

A chracter is always aware of his own body movements' date=' invisibility does not block that. Thus, if he tries to move through an area where you are, and you are physically present, then you stop his motion. He [b']knows[/b] something has stopped his motion.

No, s/he won't, that's one of the beautiful side effects of telepathic invisibility (as seen in genre texts): those affected will subconsciously 'explain away' the character's presence and will move around the character, stop short of bumping into them, etc.

 

since a person with mental defense would' date=' logically, be less susceptable to your invisibility than a 'normal'. Xavier, from the X-men, for instance should not be subject to your invisibility.. unless your psychic character is supposed to be more powerful that him.[/quote']

See, this is an interesting conundrum. Could a Limitation like "Does Not Affect Mentalists With More Active Points In Mental Powers Than The PC" work?

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

Again' date=' why not? The Shadow doesn't make people [i']not[/i] see him, he makes them not realize they've seen him. If you were to hypnotize the person or read his mind, you'd discover that he did see the Shadow. I don't see how this is any different.

 

The kid rides his bike, slams into the character and wrecks. Without Invisibility v.s. Touch, he would have felt a person at the point of impact. He'd wonder why he felt someone when nobody was there (assuming the character is also Invisible to sight, etc.). With Invisibility v.s. Touch, he doesn't. He wonders why the heck he crashed when he didn't even feel anything at the point of impact.

You aren't getting it. The bike hit Shadow. He had a crash. He felt the crash. That isn't invisibility. If he is percieving it as something other than it was. That is Images or Mental Illusions.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

You aren't getting it. The bike hit Shadow. He had a crash. He felt the crash. That isn't invisibility. If he is percieving it as something other than it was. That is Images or Mental Illusions.

I agree with this, but how does that negate Invisibility to Touch?

 

Invisible to Touch doesn't have to cause the subject of an impact to think the impact didn't happen or was caused by something else, it just confuses the subject, as he can't tell what happend. He just knows he crashed. He didn't feel the impact, just the stopping of motion and the sudden pain (if any).

 

Of course, in the source material this didn't happen. Then again, the guy with psionic invisibility never stood in the middle of the street where he could get hit by some bozo on a bike either. He usually keeps out of the way and makes an effort not to run into people or have people run into him. The fact that he succeeds could be the SFX of Invisible to Touch (to erase away those moments where he does brush past someone, but not when he shoves his way past or hits someone).

[Just A Guy Name]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

Curiosities such as these is what convinced me that Invisibility was just a special case of Desolidification.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

Naw... Desolidification is just a special case of a really really high DCV.

[Guest lucky]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

Okay' date=' the mentalist is standing in the middle of the road. A paper delivery boy is in a hurry to make it back home on his bike. The mentalist doesn't see him coming for whatever reason and obviously the boy doesn't see him. WHAM! Move Through.[/quote']

Ah, no... see, this situation wouldn't occur. Because of the way the power works, the paperboy does "see" the character, it just doesn't register. So he'd swerve his bike out of the way and rationalize his decision by "filling in" the memory of a pothole or a squirrel in the road or whatever. If anyone asked him why he'd suddenly turned his bike, he'd present one of these explanations, because that's what he remembers.

 

If anything, the power might start to break down if the paperboy were to be interrogated (say, by the police or a supervillain or whatever). For instance, if presented with the evidence that no-one else saw the squirrel or that there are no potholes on that street, the paperboy would be extremely confused.

[Mike W]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

Lucky, this is why I keep coming back to Mind Control instead of invisibility. Even though it is expensive, I just think it is the right way to build the power.

[austenandrews]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

Lucky' date=' this is why I keep coming back to Mind Control instead of invisibility. Even though it is expensive, I just think it is the right way to build the power.[/quote']

It depends on the circumstances. Reason from effects: If this is a game about telepaths, with complex psychic interactions, Invisibility may not be the right answer. If this is a standard Champs game where every new character has a radically different power set, Invisibility probably is the right answer, especially in terms of cost-to-benefit. (I confess, it's a minor peeve of mine when GMs overcharge for a modest ability based on some way-overthought rationale.)

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

I'm beginning to change my opinion. I think this power could be built along the following lines:

 

Invisibility (to whichever senses you felt necessary), Doesn't Work Against Machine-Class Minds and Cameras, Doesn't Work in Combat / When Character With Power Directly Interacts with Other Characters, Doesn't Work Against Characters With Ego Greater Than 30 or With a Mental Awareness Granting POwer With Active Points Greater than 40 (or whatever).

[Mike W]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

Except that this is NOT a minor ability if it is built according to the book/source material. Plus, I am reasoning from effect, that's why I don't think you can build this as invisibility - because invisibility won't make people go around you, which this power should do. Not only that, but with invis, you still can know someone is in the area and try and drop an AOE on them. You shouldn't be able to do that with this power. Quite frankly, when an SEP field is in effect, you can't even ACT against whatever is generating the field. The ONLY thing you can do is avoid it. And that, to me, is a major ability, not a minor one since a properly functioning SEP field would prevent almost anyone from attacking you until you attacked them first. Even if you shot the guy standing next to me, if your SEP field is working properly I would STILL ignore you, because you're still someone else's problem(even if that someone else is my best friend) until you actually come after me.

[Frenchman]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

Ah, no... see, this situation wouldn't occur. Because of the way the power works, the paperboy does "see" the character, it just doesn't register. So he'd swerve his bike out of the way and rationalize his decision by "filling in" the memory of a pothole or a squirrel in the road or whatever. If anyone asked him why he'd suddenly turned his bike, he'd present one of these explanations, because that's what he remembers.

 

If anything, the power might start to break down if the paperboy were to be interrogated (say, by the police or a supervillain or whatever). For instance, if presented with the evidence that no-one else saw the squirrel or that there are no potholes on that street, the paperboy would be extremely confused.

I don't think it would even get that far. Most people wouldn't invent a memory if they didn't have to, and it is difficult to find a situation where someone couldn't do something just 'cuz I felt like it.' The kid would have swerved his bike because he is a kid, and kids like to make their bike swerve and do figure-8s because it's more interesting than going in a straight line. The interrogators wouldn't get anything more out of him than you would if you went up to a random child on a playground and demanded to know why they chose the red ball instead of the yellow one.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

Okay, if he goes around the person it isn't Invisibility at all. You could use Desolidification in the same way that Desolid can be used to escape shackles. Desolid, Only for Making People move around you.

[GaryB]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

You're all assuming the person is also invisible to sight group as well. What if the person is just invisible to touch group in general?

 

As I said really really briefly before, it would akin to being frictionless.

 

I've never had a PC take invis to touch group before in one of my games, but if I had to, it would be sort of like Desolid, but not really. Desolid has some great advantages to it that you just can't get anywhere else. Such as needing a power advantage to actually effect a desolid character with an attack (unless of course the Desolid is built to not protect against attacks). Invis vs Touch cannot allow you to pass through objects nor even through tiny cracks. You still carry the same mass and size (unless of course you can also shape shift) when you are Invis vs Touch.

 

The way I look at it. When you are immune vs Sight Group, people cannot target you in a normal fashion, giving you an advantage. Even if people know where you are generally they suffer OCV penalties when hitting you. Your power effects can still be seen when you attack, and there are still other ways of detecting you.

 

Invis vs Touch then should give some advantages and disadvantages like any other form of invis. But not enough to outshine Desolid and not even touch upon changing the actual mind of the character.

 

So if a character was frictionless, as I think Invis vs Touch would do I would allow the following.

 

Without Fringe

1) Cannot be grabbed by STR based attacks (including TK, unless it effects pourous objects as well) if the power has no fringe. (Think of a greased pig effect). Target can still be entrangled normally.

2) Cannot using clinging powers nor can s/he be clung to with the clinging power.

3) Cannot grab onto (or hold) any objects, wear any objects (clothes) and cannot access any foci. The exception is the focus that generates the Invis vs Touch.

4) Can still be attacked normally by any other attack.

 

With Fringe

1) +4 DCV vs Grabs by any STR Based attacks (Including TK as above).

2) Can use clinging to 1/2 effect, and the same with being clung onto.

3) Still cannot use objects normally, or must make a STR roll or DEX roll to hold onto any items each phase. Including accessable foci. Of course, the focus that generates the power can still be used.

4) Can still be attacked normally by other means.

[Mike W]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

GaryB:

 

I think we're arguing two different threads here. You're arguing if Invisibility to Touch is possible(which I would agree with) but the original question asked if invis to touch would be the way to build a particular power(which, based on the source material I would say no).

[GaryB]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

GaryB:

 

I think we're arguing two different threads here. You're arguing if Invisibility to Touch is possible(which I would agree with) but the original question asked if invis to touch would be the way to build a particular power(which, based on the source material I would say no).

 

Yes. I understand what the original post is stating. The book specifically states why Invis vs Touch should be built another way, I'm just...hypothetically...if I had to allow it, thats how I'd implement it.

 

Desolid has it's own set of advantages, and even mechanics. Why can't Invis vs Touch work like I suggested? It doesn't simulate any other power really. Sure, you can lop a bunch of limitations of Desolid and produce the same thing, but why would you want to?

 

I'm directly countering the statement made in the book about the subject (hypothetically), which is still on target with the thread. Why can't Invis vs Touch be built? People are looking at the application of Invis vs Touch wrongly. It seems to me that the angle people approach it as, is that the character is immune to being effected by the touch sense (ie: Feels like nothing is there), which would negate the sense of mass and girth (which Desolid does). Instead, I take if from the angle that mass and girth PLUS tangibility are still there. It doesn't really make them immune from being percieved by touch, it gives them instead certain advantages from being effected by touch that Desolid does not (at least without completely mashing down any usefulness Desolid has).

 

Sure you can make Desolid vs Grabs Only. But it's all advantage there. And it forces people to buy Effects Desolid on strength or whatever grab maneuver in order to make an effective grab. Still an advantage since you are causing people to have the power advantage in place to effect them. But no disadvantage otherwise.

 

With what I suggested, you are coupled with advantage and disadvantage for a particular situation. Grabbing.

 

Sense powers, and powers that effect senses are a strange lot. Each one can almost be used to simulate another. For example, Images can still be used to hide the presence of a character as Invisibility could. But then again, so can shapeshifting. Whats the difference? The underlying mechanic.

 

* Invisible vs Sight - Cannot target, imposes penalties outright to OCV even when people guess. Carries disadvantage of attacks not being invisible unless bought with a power advantage.

* Images vs Sight - Perception rolls can be used to percieve the images as images and thus negating the advantage. Has a ranged advantage that can still be used around the player. Can't move the illusion without making a drastic change.

* Shapeshift vs Sight - Can look like other objects or people. Breaking the effect takes a little more insight than Images, but perception can still break the shapeshift illusion.

* Mental Illusions - Everything else but me exists. More like a single target sense modifier. Effects one person into ignoring you.

 

Which is the best way to be invisible to sight? It depends on the mechanic you want to use.

 

Now Vs. Touch we can:

 

* Mental Illusions - You can't touch me. I am intangible. Breakout rolls negate the effect.

* Shapeshift vs Touch - I feel like something else, perhaps nothing at all? Perception rolls can negate the effect.

* Images vs Touch - I'm within my own illusion, yet you cannot feel me there. Perception rolls used to negate the effect.

* Desolid - You plainly cannot touch me, unless you have a power advantage.

 

And of course:

 

* Invisible vs Touch - Your touch sense cannot register me. Can still be attacked and damaged without any particular advantage on the attackers part.

 

What am I showing here? I think Invisibility vs Touch can be allowed despite what the book says. It looks like I can build it many different ways. But it depends on the underlying mechanic I want to use. Normally it would allow no particular advantage other than they cannot be percieved by the touch sense.

 

If I had to make examples of Invisibility vs Touch, they would look similar to Desolid (Liquidy Form or Frictionless), but would have none of the advantages Desolid has and would still carry the disadvantage that the character cannot effect objects, nor could they go through them, or even through small cracks. They still have mass and size to contend with. Simply, the person cannot be perceived by the touch sense. No more than that.

 

The frictionless thing, looking back at it seems silly now.

 

Ugh...I go now.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

Invisibility to touch can easily be misconstrued, usually because more is attributed tot he power than is granted by the power - you lose your sense of balance or whatever. The same problem appurtains to darkness to touch too.

 

I think if someone was invisible to touch it would simply mean (as with any other sense) they could not be detected with that sense.

 

Someone alreasdy mentioned 'super pick-pocketing', but you could also use it whenever the sense of touch was used - by a person or machine - to detect someone. I might allow it for a power that allowed you to leave no footprints (seems less cludgy than the standard 'gliding' fix), or to avoid setting off pressure plates (even if you have got 8 levels of density increase).

 

The point is the applicability would be very limited. If you hit someone when you have this power turned on, they will feel it, as you are applying force, not touch - it doesn't prevent paini (a touch flash might....)

 

If someone tries to grab you I would give them a penalty to OCV as grabs/wrestling/judo do rely on sensing the movement of an opponent at least as much as looking at what they are doing, but it would not prevent you being grabbed or held.

 

If you were in a dark room you could feel your opponent but they wouldn't feel you feeling them. They could find you by clapping their hands and stopping when they don't touch each other, but that would be far harder.

 

Invisibility to touch is NOT a power that should not be, it is a power that probably doesn't suit many applications.

 

On the other hand it is ideal for the SEP field. If, despite everything, you are confronted with the unassailable fact that there is something there (i.e. you can't get out of the cricket match because there is a spaceship you didn't notice in the way), i.e. if you are forced to notice it, you do.

 

Invisibility (limitation: doesn't work against opponents who noticve the invisible thing through luck, deduction or in some other way becoming aware of it -1/2)

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

Changed my mind back. Must've been tired.

 

Mike W is right. An SEP filed affects the mind in a very fundamental way that Invis doesn't.

 

If I land my SEP Field spaceship in the middle of a little-league soccer match, taking up 60% of the field, the ref and the players and the parents will suddenly decide that they don't want to play. They will make up a reason to leave the field, since they can no longer play soccer (because the ship takes up the field). It's not just that they don't know it's there, they will go far out of their way to not interact with it.

 

If it's a military-strength SEP field, the ship could probably land on one of the soccer players, crushing him, and his parents would still think that it's "Somebody Else's Problem". SEP Fields don't just make you invisible - they make the characters not even think about you.

 

If I'm invisible to sight group, and I'm attacked, I'll know I'm being attacked. I'll hear the guy, feel the guy, and if he's close enough, maybe smell him, and I'll see his effects on the real world. If a character has Invis versus ALL senses, but some mystic sensei informs me I'm about to be attacked by a character I can't sense, I'll know he's there. I'll try to defend myself. When he picks up a vase to throw at me, I'll start shooting in the vicinity of the vase. I don't have to sense someone to know they're there. An SEP field means the targets DON'T KNOW you're there. You alter their mind. You're not necessarily invisible, they just don't think about you. Your subconscious detects the person because you will go out of your way to not interact with them, but you don't think about them. Definitely mind control.

 

I agree that Invis versus Touch can be made (although I don't agree with Gary B on all of its effects), but I whole-heartedly disagree with the idea to use it as the power to build an SEP field.

[austenandrews]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

Okay' date=' if he goes around the person it isn't Invisibility at all.[/quote']

I don't think anyone is claiming that Invisibility makes you immune to physical contact. Just immune to being perceived. If you want to stand in the middle of oncoming traffic and not get hit, you'll need something like Desol. But walking down a sidewalk, it's enough to assume that pedestrians don't knock each other down as a matter of course. Therefore the character can walk down the sidewalk and not have a bicycle plow into him. The only effect required is that people psychically reject the presence of the character - that is, they react as if they don't perceive him (even if they physically interact with him). Invisibility doesn't literally mean they don't see him, any more than Combat Luck literally means a character is bulletproof.

 

Furthermore, if the GM decides that something unusual does happen and a bike plows into the character, Invisibility defines how the kid psychically rejects the fact that he ran into Captain SEP. Instead he tries to figure out some other explanation.

 

I didn't get the impression lucky was literally talking about landing a giant spaceship in a crowded park and having it be ignored. In any case it's a bit of a stretch to go to the source material on this one, unless the GM is willing to allow illogical things to happen just because they're funny.

[Lightray]

Sense-Affecting Powers apparently bring out a lot of confusion.

 

Invisibility has only one effect in the game: other characters cannot sense the invisible character, using the sense affected.

 

It has no effect on whether other characters think or notice the invisible character is there.

 

If you want to know when Invisibility To Touch is appropriate, consider a case where someone has Ranged Touch as a sense. If the Ranged Touch can sense the invisible character, then that's not Invisibility. If the Ranged Touch cannot sense the invisible character, then that is Invisibility.

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

unless the GM is willing to allow illogical things to happen just because they're funny.

 

Actually, that's the entire point of the SEP Field - it's illogical yet funny. As is all Douglas Adams material. That's the point of the SEP Field - it's taking everyday British attitudes and turning them into technologies. I mean, this is a world where people travel via Improbability Drive.

 

If a character is sitting in a chair with an SEP Field, the targets won't try to sit there and then justify why they can't. They'll justify why they never wanted to sit in the chair in the first place. They'll decide they have a bad back and need to stay standing, or remember that that chair squeaks. That's what an SEP Field does.

[Kristopher]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that I'd never allow Invisibility vs Touch to function as anything other than a gimmick.

 

Unless you're actually Desolid, you're perceivable as a physical object simply because you occupy mass and space.

 

Unless you use Mind Control or Mental Illusions, you don't fool anybody.

[austenandrews]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

Actually' date=' that's the [i']entire[/i] point of the SEP Field - it's illogical yet funny. As is all Douglas Adams material. That's the point of the SEP Field - it's taking everyday British attitudes and turning them into technologies. I mean, this is a world where people travel via Improbability Drive.

Which is why I brought it up. I assume lucky is building an actual character in a real game, where some modicum of logic and balance is desired. If you want to stay true to the source material, you're simulating absurdity on a cosmic scale that's infeasible (in terms of points) for your average PC. Either that, or you must have the universe conspire in the joke. If the GM wants to rule that SEP only requires EGO or greater of Mind Control effect because no one wants the boat to be rocked (which is basically the original gag) then you've got a reasonable option to use Mind Control. Otherwise you have to settle for simulating the effect, or the character won't have any points left for anything else.