Paying points for Falling damage

[Fox1]

Re: Paying points for Falling damage

 

Looked up Fox1's website: lot of good work there' date=' but if you want deadly firearms, just tinker with the namby-pamby rules for disabling. A hit to the head or vitals that exceeds your BODY after the multiplier gets you a CON roll, failure meaning death.[/quote']

 

For reference, the failed CON roll resulting in death isn't in the rules. There it is just for determiing how Permanent disability effects are.

 

Given that, I take it you're suggesting this as a house rule.

 

It does not suit for what I desired out of the game. I wasn't interested in redefining death in the game system like that and forcing a Saving Throw vs. Death onto the player for damage the system states is not lethal.

 

An easier fix is to just reduce everyone's body or take the suggestion in HERO that everything does x2 body.

 

Neither of those suited (nor does your suggestion) due to the fact that the chance of a lethal rifle hit goes through the roof (as they typically do a d6 extra damage in Hero over the handguns)- not something I wanted to do in the game.

 

I picked the path I did for good reason.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Paying points for Falling damage

 

Of course, lots of people actually survive bullet wounds. My cousin got shot because he's a moron and doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut, and doesn't know when not to call a car full of black guys certain names when he's in certain parts of town. Got shot in the stomach. Regardless, he survived no problem.

 

Most people who die from bullet wounds die from bleeding to death. Those are the rules that need tweaked if you want to make Hero more deadly.

[Fox1]

Re: Paying points for Falling damage

 

Of course, lots of people actually survive bullet wounds. My cousin got shot because he's a moron and doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut, and doesn't know when not to call a car full of black guys certain names when he's in certain parts of town. Got shot in the stomach. Regardless, he survived no problem.

 

Most people who die from bullet wounds die from bleeding to death. Those are the rules that need tweaked if you want to make Hero more deadly.

 

May I make a suggestion?

 

Read my rules first and run some numbers (math is good, math is your friend) BEFORE suggesting something for them to do that they already do, i.e. in this case allow most victims of gunshots to survive if medical attention is quick in coming.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Paying points for Falling damage

 

May I make a suggestion?

 

Read my rules first and run some numbers (math is good, math is your friend) BEFORE suggesting something for them to do that they already do, i.e. in this case allow most victims of gunshots to survive if medical attention is quick in coming.

 

May I make a suggestion?

 

Let me make my own recommendations, and don't immediately believe they're a direct criticism of whatever you've done unless I specifically reference it. I'll look over your rules when and if I so desire. I do the math when I feel like it. Your optional rules are fine and good, but I don't plan on using them. Take general suggestions on combat as just that--general suggestions on combat. Don't take them as a criticism of your house rules, because I wasn't even responding to your post.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Paying points for Falling damage

 

May I make a suggestion?

 

Read my rules first and run some numbers (math is good, math is your friend) BEFORE suggesting something for them to do that they already do, i.e. in this case allow most victims of gunshots to survive if medical attention is quick in coming.

 

I realize I'm putting my head on the chopping block here, but I'd rather it be mine than Champsguy's because I have read your house rules, and he was just making an open suggestion that didn't specificaly apply to your house rules.

 

From what I read in your house rules and how you explained them to me, what you just said now doesn't jive. Well, unless I happened to miss something. I do recall you saying that your rules are meant to instant kills. Taking down the target in a single hit and all that. Perhaps you meant simply KOing them, but that's not how it came across to me.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Paying points for Falling damage

 

Actually I see a good reason for paying points for falling damage.

 

If one of Stuka's 'signature' attacks was to grab someone and dive them into the pavement then I want to be able to do that regularly without all the palavar of grabbing etc etc.

 

If I buy 16D6 EB (physical) only if 30' of headroom available, -1D6 per " of opponents flight, full phase.

 

If I throw this attack then the special effects are that I fly by, grabbing an ankle before divingbombing the ground with my captive. Takes a phase to throw and always works if I make the to hit roll.

 

I have paid the points, I expect to do the damage. So yes, I think there can be a case made....

 

 

Doc

 

This is an excellent reason to pay for something you can do anyway. To me, it's like buying an HA to simulate a "punch". Sure, you can punch already, but you want to be good at it. Doc's suggestion does just that. Sure, you can drop people to their potential doom, but if you want to be especially good at it, or at least better than your average guy who flies around dropping people, you can buy something that makes you better at it.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Paying points for Falling damage

 

This is an excellent reason to pay for something you can do anyway. To me' date=' it's like buying an HA to simulate a "punch". Sure, you can punch already, but you want to be good at it. Doc's suggestion does just that. Sure, you can drop people to their potential doom, but if you want to be especially good at it, or at least better than your average guy who flies around dropping people, you can buy something that makes you better at it.[/quote']Sure, but there's an obvious difference between buying an attack defined as a particular maneuver and executing that particular maneuver.

 

A speedster could run in a straight line and do a Multiple Move-By to hit several opponents, or he could buy an Energy Blast AoE: Line with the special effect of running, hitting several opponents, and returning to his original position. There's obviously going to be a big difference in reliability. Version one doesn't cost anything beyond the character points needed to run fast and hit hard. Version two is an actual Power, and as such should be more effective.

 

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the idea that characters can spend points to build more reliable or effective versions of maneuvers (just as Clinging can simulate infallable Climbing, or Gliding can simulate wuxia-style wire-fu leaping). But I do see a problem with requiring it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Paying points for Falling damage

 

Sure' date=' but there's an obvious difference between [i']buying an attack defined as a particular maneuver[/i] and executing that particular maneuver.

 

A speedster could run in a straight line and do a Multiple Move-By to hit several opponents, or he could buy an Energy Blast AoE: Line with the special effect of running, hitting several opponents, and returning to his original position. There's obviously going to be a big difference in reliability. Version one doesn't cost anything beyond the character points needed to run fast and hit hard. Version two is an actual Power, and as such should be more effective.

 

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the idea that characters can spend points to build more reliable or effective versions of maneuvers (just as Clinging can simulate infallable Climbing, or Gliding can simulate wuxia-style wire-fu leaping). But I do see a problem with requiring it.

 

 

I'm with you most of the way, but where you run into silly territory is when the character says 'well, I'll do the EB AoE, but not come back to where I started', or 'I'll do the automatic pick up and drop on a team mate, just not drop him'.

 

Obvious answer is 'you can't - that's not how the power works', but if you've let the players define that it IS how the power works then, whilst preventing it being used in this way is logical in terms of the game system it is really jarring in terms of in-game consistency and tends to cut through the string suspending my disbelief.

 

So that's why I don't like it. Not that it's wrong, I can just see it causing more problems than it solves.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Paying points for Falling damage

 

I'm with you most of the way, but where you run into silly territory is when the character says 'well, I'll do the EB AoE, but not come back to where I started', or 'I'll do the automatic pick up and drop on a team mate, just not drop him'.

 

Obvious answer is 'you can't - that's not how the power works', but if you've let the players define that it IS how the power works then, whilst preventing it being used in this way is logical in terms of the game system it is really jarring in terms of in-game consistency and tends to cut through the string suspending my disbelief.

 

So that's why I don't like it. Not that it's wrong, I can just see it causing more problems than it solves.

 

I think it depends on how much you handwave stuff.

 

Personally I've never been that hot on keeping track of locations etc except on fairly relative terms (HtH, close, apart, far apart, distant) and would be willing to handwave some of the movement stuff - though I'd expect the player to allow me to use the movement against them as often as they use it to their advantage.

 

Doc

[Fox1]

Re: Paying points for Falling damage

 

I realize I'm putting my head on the chopping block here' date=' but I'd rather it be mine than Champsguy's because I [i']have[/i] read your house rules, and he was just making an open suggestion that didn't specificaly apply to your house rules.

 

I read his post differently.

 

He stated: "Most people who die from bullet wounds die from bleeding to death. Those are the rules that need tweaked if you want to make Hero more deadly."

 

Bolding mine. The wording selected wasn’t “another option is to...â€, it was a statement to the effect that this is the only valid place to make the change.

 

He didn't say ""hee's another way..", he didn't say "another area that could be looked at is...", he didn't say "I would do the following..".

 

He said Those are the rules that need tweaked

 

Coming as it did on the heels of my post, it seemed like a direct criticism of my approach and a call for a different method.

 

If that wasn't his intent, all is well is good.

 

From what I read in your house rules and how you explained them to me, what you just said now doesn't jive. Well, unless I happened to miss something. I do recall you saying that your rules are meant to instant kills. Taking down the target in a single hit and all that. Perhaps you meant simply KOing them, but that's not how it came across to me.

 

I meant "Taking the target down" in the sense of a reasonable expectation of being able to reduce them to 0 stun or less with a single shot. They are in addition meant to allow the chance of a instant kill, but that chance was meant to be the exception, not the expectation.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Paying points for Falling damage

 

I'm with you most of the way, but where you run into silly territory is when the character says 'well, I'll do the EB AoE, but not come back to where I started', or 'I'll do the automatic pick up and drop on a team mate, just not drop him'.

 

Obvious answer is 'you can't - that's not how the power works', but if you've let the players define that it IS how the power works then, whilst preventing it being used in this way is logical in terms of the game system it is really jarring in terms of in-game consistency and tends to cut through the string suspending my disbelief.

 

So that's why I don't like it. Not that it's wrong, I can just see it causing more problems than it solves.

No, it's not a problem at all...that's what the "Power" Skill is for -- making nonstandard use of your abilities.

 

If that speedster (for example) does it more than once or twice, though, he's got to buy that "Power Stunt" -- perhaps as an EB with some linked Teleportation that has the Limitation "must pass through intervening space."

 

See?

 

No problem at all...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Paying points for Falling damage

 

Sure' date=' but there's an obvious difference between [i']buying an attack defined as a particular maneuver[/i] and executing that particular maneuver.

 

A speedster could run in a straight line and do a Multiple Move-By to hit several opponents, or he could buy an Energy Blast AoE: Line with the special effect of running, hitting several opponents, and returning to his original position. There's obviously going to be a big difference in reliability. Version one doesn't cost anything beyond the character points needed to run fast and hit hard. Version two is an actual Power, and as such should be more effective.

 

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the idea that characters can spend points to build more reliable or effective versions of maneuvers (just as Clinging can simulate infallable Climbing, or Gliding can simulate wuxia-style wire-fu leaping). But I do see a problem with requiring it.

Agreed on all counts.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Paying points for Falling damage

 

The short version?

 

The conversion methods I use mean that the damage a typical 9mm does is 2d6+1 RKA, +0 Stun Mod, Resistant Defense have 1.5x effect against it.

I meant "Taking the target down" in the sense of a reasonable expectation of being able to reduce them to 0 stun or less with a single shot. They are in addition meant to allow the chance of a instant kill' date=' but that chance was meant to be the exception, not the expectation.[/quote']

That drops an unarmored normal to 0 or less Body 28% of the time. The average Stun is about 21, which means you knock out that normal over half the time. That's awfully lethal.

 

I'm decently content with the 1d6 KA that does an average of about 9 Stun. That means a normal will be Stunned almost half the time and will be bleeding if you use the optional per-wound bleeding rules. But to each his own.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Paying points for Falling damage

 

I'm with you most of the way, but where you run into silly territory is when the character says 'well, I'll do the EB AoE, but not come back to where I started', or 'I'll do the automatic pick up and drop on a team mate, just not drop him'.

 

Obvious answer is 'you can't - that's not how the power works', but if you've let the players define that it IS how the power works then, whilst preventing it being used in this way is logical in terms of the game system it is really jarring in terms of in-game consistency and tends to cut through the string suspending my disbelief.

 

So that's why I don't like it. Not that it's wrong, I can just see it causing more problems than it solves.

 

This is where you start to get into the silly SFX area. Power conceps I'd compare to this would be "I create a chunk of stone the size of a small city and drop it on him, but it it only hits him and doesn't cause any property damage" for a normal or indirect EB and "I toss him into orbit so he suffocates into unconscious and falls back down to the exact same spot but doesn't take the falling damage and it all happens during my Phase" for an EB NND. Some things a GM should just say no to.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Paying points for Falling damage

 

This is where you start to get into the silly SFX area. Power conceps I'd compare to this would be "I create a chunk of stone the size of a small city and drop it on him' date=' but it it only hits him and doesn't cause any property damage" for a normal or indirect EB and "I toss him into orbit so he suffocates into unconscious and falls back down to the exact same spot but doesn't take the falling damage and it all happens during my Phase" for an EB NND. Some things a GM should just say no to.[/quote']

 

Yes, but these are fine if you're playing Final Fantasy Hero, and you've used a summon materia or hit your limit break.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Paying points for Falling damage

 

Yes' date=' but these are fine if you're playing [i']Final Fantasy Hero[/i], and you've used a summon materia or hit your limit break.

 

Well, obviously there is no limit to what is plausable in a Video Game...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Paying points for Falling damage

 

No, it's not a problem at all...that's what the "Power" Skill is for -- making nonstandard use of your abilities.

 

If that speedster (for example) does it more than once or twice, though, he's got to buy that "Power Stunt" -- perhaps as an EB with some linked Teleportation that has the Limitation "must pass through intervening space."

 

See?

 

No problem at all...

 

Actually I think you'll find you need the 'Plaster over the cracks in a dodgy concept' skill there....

[Vondy]

Re: Paying points for Falling damage

 

Do I need to pay to breath, too?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Paying points for Falling damage

 

Do I need to pay to breath' date=' too?[/quote']

Ages back, a GM that I knew (but fortunately did not play under) allowed players to take Disadvantages such as "Addicted to Oxygen" on the grounds that if they stopped getting air, they'd take damage and die.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Paying points for Falling damage

 

Do I need to pay to breath' date=' too?[/quote']

 

Only if you want to breathe something in addition to air. The rules let you breathe and function as a normal human being. You only pay points for stuff a normal human can't do.

 

What is being suggested here, as you point out with subtle irony, is that you pay points for something you can do anyway to make you better at doing it. Personally I thought that is what combat levels were for. I'm not that keen on circumventing game mechanics with points constructions unless there is a darned good reason.