simulating "Whirlwind Attack"

[Menexenus]

Hello all. I've got a martial arts character, and I'm trying to buy him an attack that simulates "Whirlwind Attack" in D&D. (For those who don't play 3e, Whirlwind Attack allows a character to attack all adjacent opponents.) I've been trying to build something like this with Hero, but with little success.

 

My first thought was to make it an Area Effect attack (with a 2" radius and a hole in the middle). But this doesn't seem to fit, because I only have to hit the hex, not the targets. (Besides, hitting the hex seems beside the point when I'm using a hand-to-hand attack.) I mean, it would be nice to only have to hit my own hex and do damage to everyone around me, but it just seems to be an abuse of the rules.

 

So then I thought about making it an auto-fire attack. Since this would be much more expensive END-wise, I suspect this is what I should be using to build the power. But the rules for hitting multiple targets with an auto-fire don't quite seem to fit what I'm trying to do. (Or do they?)

 

Anyway, I could use some help from those who know the system better than I do.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Fox1]

Re: simulating "Whirlwind Attack"

 

AoE of effect with hole and selective

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: simulating "Whirlwind Attack"

 

Or Sweep and a bunch of levels.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: simulating "Whirlwind Attack"

 

AoE of effect with hole and selective

 

It's selective - no hole required. Try a 1 hex area (+1/2), double area (+1/4), Selective (+1/4). I suppose you could make it non-selective with a hole in the middle if you prefer, in which case you have to try to hit EVERYONE adjacent to you.

[prestidigitator]

Re: simulating "Whirlwind Attack"

 

Either a Sweep with a bunch of levels (maybe CSLs that only apply to Sweep), or Area of Effect: 2" radius, Selective (no need for Hole in the Middle because with Selective you can just not choose to attack yourself).

 

BTW, I think limited CSLs with Sweep is the way to handle Cleave-type Feats.

[Fox1]

Re: simulating "Whirlwind Attack"

 

It's selective - no hole required. Try a 1 hex area (+1/2)' date=' double area (+1/4), Selective (+1/4). I suppose you could make it non-selective with a hole in the middle if you prefer, in which case you have to try to hit EVERYONE adjacent to you.[/quote']

 

Ah, you be right.

[Dust Raven]

Re: simulating "Whirlwind Attack"

 

The Ultimate Martial Arts Attack Power:

 

 

EB 14d6 (vs PD) 1/2 END, No Range. Total Cost: 58

 

Use it for an ubersmash punch: just roll for full damage

 

Use if for a confusing blury of punches: Spead for OCV

 

or, if you really want to...

 

Use it for a whirlwind attack: spread for area, you can get all six hexes around you with an 8d6 attack versus all targets in them.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: simulating "Whirlwind Attack"

 

We did it something like this for a halberd-wielding warrior in my low-fantasy game.

 

Naked Power Advantage: Apply Area of Effect One Hex, x2 Area, Selective to HKA up to 3d6 - OAF Halberd (-1), Own Hex Only (-1/2).

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: simulating "Whirlwind Attack"

 

Hello!

 

I've done this exact thing with a bunch of characters and NPC's. Hand Attack or HKA with the Area of Effect and Selective advantages is exactly what you need to simulate this effect.

 

With Selective, you have to make a seperate attack roll against every target in the area effect, except the one's you designate as "safe" from the attack. Its perfect to simulate the kind of attack you want.

 

If you only want your character to attack "adjecent" opponents then do as others have suggested: AE-1hex, X2 Area, Selective for a total of +1. This allows you to hit anyone in the 6 hexes surrounding your character. If you want to hit anyone within a certain movement range (say 3" or 4") then simply use AE-Radius/Selective (+1 1/4) and this simulates your character running through a crowded room slugging intended targets....

 

Works perfectly, trust me. I've done this a lot.

 

Sweep with lots of Skill Levels works as well, but gets just as expensive as an AE Hand Attack if you want to attack a room full of foes with no penalty....

[Susano]

Re: simulating "Whirlwind Attack"

 

This is what I did for Jei from USAGI YOJIMBO:

 

28      Yari-Jutsu:  Multipower, 56-Point Pool, OAF (Spear; -1)
2       1) u Flurry of Spear Thrusts:  HKA 1 1/2d6, Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Reduced 
       Endurance (1/2 END; +1/2); Extra Time (Full Phase; -1/2), END 2 per shot
2       2) u Whirling Spear Strike:  HKA 1 1/2d6, Area of Effect (2" radius, 
       Non-Selective; +3/4), Hole In The Middle (1 hex in center; +1/4), Reduced Endurance 
       (1/2 END; +1/4); Extra Time (Full Phase; -1/2), Can be Blocked (-1/4), END 3

[Dust Raven]

Re: simulating "Whirlwind Attack"

 

Well, if we can post some spiffy examples:

 

The Claw of the Night Dragon is an ancient mystical katana said to a gift of the Night Dragon to the ronin Kagemura for freeing him. It is believed that the blade is actually one of the dragons claws.

Cost	Power	END
37	Claw of the Night Dragon: Multipower, 75-point reserve, all slots OAF (-1)
4u	1) Blade: HKA 2d6 (2 1/2d6 w/STR), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Variable Advantage (+1/2 Advantages; +1); OAF (-1)	0
4u	2) Parry: Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack), +2 OCV, Missile Reflection, Reflect At Any Target, Adjacent Hex (+1/2); OAF (-1)	0
4u	3) Circle of Death: HKA 2d6 (2d6+1 w/STR), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Area Of Effect (5" Radius; +1); OAF (-1)	3
4u	4) Dragon Claw Slash: HKA 4d6 (5d6+1 w/STR), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4); OAF (-1)	3
4u	5) Furious Counterstrike: HKA 2d6 (2d6+1 w/STR), Damage Shield (+1/2), Continuous (+1); OAF (-1)	7
57	Total Powers Cost

 

The entire weapon is designed for a solid anime feel. The Circle of Death slot is the "whirlwind" like attack. The original SFX I imagined was a normal slash that uppon hitting (or being blocked) whould shatter the blade into thousands of tiny shards that whirl around and shred everyone within 5" if the wielder. For a bit more control over who gets shredded, you can change the Personal Immunity to Selective for the AE.

[Menexenus]

Re: simulating "Whirlwind Attack"

 

Thanks to all those who have responded. Many of you have said that you think an Area Effect is the best way to go, but I strongly disagree. To implement an Area Effect attack, you only need to hit the target hex. This mechanic is completely inappropriate when we are talking about hand-to-hand attacks. First, it doesn't make sense that you could hit everyone around you without rolling to hit your opponents' DCVs. Hitting your own hex should not be sufficient to damage everyone around you if your only weapon is your fists and feat. Second, what happens if you miss your hex? I believe that when you fail to hit the target hex, the Area Effect scatters. Isn't that correct? If so, this possibility shows even more clearly how ridiculous it is to use an Area Effect to simulate a melee attack.

 

I had not thought of a modified Sweep. That has some potential. I'll have to give it some more thought.

 

But I'm still thinking that Auto-Fire (against multiple targets) seems to do the best (though still an imperfect) job of simulating the type of attack I'm imagining. Auto-Fire causes you to make separate rolls for each target and there are penalties to hit for each additional target. (This makes sense.) Also, you have to spend END for each individual attack. (This also makes sense.)

 

I guess what I'm saying is that I think using the Area Effect mechanic in this situation is a blatant case of rules abuse. I'd be very interested to hear from anyone who is willing to offer reasons to the contrary (either as devil's advocate or as someone who genuinely disagrees).

[prestidigitator]

Re: simulating "Whirlwind Attack"

 

Thanks to all those who have responded. Many of you have said that you think an Area Effect is the best way to go, but I strongly disagree. To implement an Area Effect attack, you only need to hit the target hex. This mechanic is completely inappropriate when we are talking about hand-to-hand attacks. First, it doesn't make sense that you could hit everyone around you without rolling to hit your opponents' DCVs. Hitting your own hex should not be sufficient to damage everyone around you if your only weapon is your fists and feat. Second, what happens if you miss your hex? I believe that when you fail to hit the target hex, the Area Effect scatters. Isn't that correct? If so, this possibility shows even more clearly how ridiculous it is to use an Area Effect to simulate a melee attack.

 

I had not thought of a modified Sweep. That has some potential. I'll have to give it some more thought.

 

But I'm still thinking that Auto-Fire (against multiple targets) seems to do the best (though still an imperfect) job of simulating the type of attack I'm imagining. Auto-Fire causes you to make separate rolls for each target and there are penalties to hit for each additional target. (This makes sense.) Also, you have to spend END for each individual attack. (This also makes sense.)

 

I guess what I'm saying is that I think using the Area Effect mechanic in this situation is a blatant case of rules abuse. I'd be very interested to hear from anyone who is willing to offer reasons to the contrary (either as devil's advocate or as someone who genuinely disagrees).

Not at all on the Area of Effect thing. An Area of Effect with no range is centered on the character's hex (well, or on an adjacent hex, I suppose, but we could just Special Effect that away, or call it, "within one step" or something), and that doesn't require an attack roll because where would it go if you miss? Now when Selective Target is added to the Area of Effect, you can choose which targets within the area you wish to actually hit, but you must make a normal attack roll against each of them.

 

That's not to say the Autofire way of approaching it won't work. I think that is reasonably valid as well (although you might think about whether you can really attack people behind you this way, whether you can allocate multiple shots per target, etc.). But I think the Selective Area of Effect is the way to most accurately build a Whirlwind Attack as it is given in D&D.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: simulating "Whirlwind Attack"

 

Thanks to all those who have responded. Many of you have said that you think an Area Effect is the best way to go, but I strongly disagree. To implement an Area Effect attack, you only need to hit the target hex. This mechanic is completely inappropriate when we are talking about hand-to-hand attacks. First, it doesn't make sense that you could hit everyone around you without rolling to hit your opponents' DCVs.

 

Hitting your own hex should not be sufficient to damage everyone around you if your only weapon is your fists and feat. Second, what happens if you miss your hex? I believe that when you fail to hit the target hex, the Area Effect scatters. Isn't that correct? If so, this possibility shows even more clearly how ridiculous it is to use an Area Effect to simulate a melee attack.

 

"Nonselective" or "selective" areas require a roll to hit against each target, your OCV vs their DCV. This criticisim is therefore easily dealt with.

 

Targeting an adjacent hex makes it DCV 0. In any case, where the AE is "no range" it is common practice to rule that it goes off in the attacker's hex. No roll is needed because no scatter is possible - it has no range.

 

I had not thought of a modified Sweep. That has some potential. I'll have to give it some more thought.

 

That works. It costs a lot of END. You have to assume the attacker is letting down his guard (it takes him to 1/2 DCV, IIRC). And it means he needs a fulkl phase to do it. But it works.

 

But I'm still thinking that Auto-Fire (against multiple targets) seems to do the best (though still an imperfect) job of simulating the type of attack I'm imagining. Auto-Fire causes you to make separate rolls for each target and there are penalties to hit for each additional target. (This makes sense.) Also' date=' you have to spend END for each individual attack. (This also makes sense.)[/quote']

 

Similar to Sweep, except that you don't have the "one miss ends it" issue, I believe.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that I think using the Area Effect mechanic in this situation is a blatant case of rules abuse. I'd be very interested to hear from anyone who is willing to offer reasons to the contrary (either as devil's advocate or as someone who genuinely disagrees).

 

I'd be in the latter camp. This isn't abusive.

[prestidigitator]

Re: simulating "Whirlwind Attack"

 

By the way, if built with a Selective Area of Effect, you may want to also have it take Extra Time, have a "Cannot be used in a Sweep" Limitation, or something along those lines, unless you want the character to be able to Sweep and hit all those targets multiple times....

[prestidigitator]

Re: simulating "Whirlwind Attack"

 

.... And it means he needs a fulkl phase to do it.

Unless you have the Rapid Attack skill, of course (I think that's what it is called).

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: simulating "Whirlwind Attack"

 

Thanks to all those who have responded. Many of you have said that you think an Area Effect is the best way to go' date=' but I strongly disagree. To implement an Area Effect attack, you only need to hit the target hex. This mechanic is completely inappropriate when we are talking about hand-to-hand attacks. First, it doesn't make sense that you could hit everyone around you without rolling to hit your opponents' DCVs. Hitting your own hex should not be sufficient to damage everyone around you if your only weapon is your fists and feat. Second, what happens if you miss your hex? I believe that when you fail to hit the target hex, the Area Effect scatters. Isn't that correct? If so, this possibility shows even more clearly how ridiculous it is to use an Area Effect to simulate a melee attack.[/quote']

 

 

MENEXENUS:

 

Please read page 160 of the 5th edition rulesbook (don't know what page in the revised version) under the heading Other Options. These are options which add to (or subtract from) the cost of the Area Effect advantage.

 

Selective allows you to choose who you want to hit within the area of effect. You must make an attack roll against every target (you want to hit) against their normal DCV. Usually, you are supposed to make an attack roll to hit the area first, but with a Hand to hand AE attack, I would say that is unnecessary.

 

Non-Selective Similar to Selective above, except that you cannot choose the target, you must roll to hit everyone in the AE, but as with Selective, must roll to hit each and every target seperately and must target their DCV instead of the Hex. This is a limitation which reduces the cost of AE advantage.

 

So based on your description of what you want, these work perfectly.

 

You don't aim for the hex, you target the individual DCV's of the targets you want to hit.

 

Thats what you are going for, right?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: simulating "Whirlwind Attack"

 

Also be aware that since Hand Attacks/HKA's have no Range, it doesn't matter if you miss your "target hex" (the hex the character is standing in) because it had no range, it can't go anywhere! Thus, there is no deviation like with a Ranged attack (if you miss the hex you are aiming at, the AE is centered on a different hex depending on how badly you botched your roll) so a to hit roll vs the "target hex" with an AE based Hand to Hand attack is completely unnecessary (i.e. a wasted roll, since you simply cannot miss)

 

You would simply make an attack against each and every target in the Area (depending on whether its Selective or Non-Selective) and away you go!

[Menexenus]

thanks

 

Thanks to everyone who pointed out the rules for Selective. That's why I call myself "Perplexed Newbie"!

[Susano]

Re: thanks

 

Thanks to everyone who pointed out the rules for Selective. That's why I call myself "Perplexed Newbie"!

 

Which is what Jei's speak strike uses. Also, I put the Limitation of "Can Be Blocked" in there to represent the fact it is a spear, and can be Blocked, unlike most normal AOE attacks.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: thanks

 

Which is what Jei's speak strike uses. Also' date=' I put the Limitation of "Can Be Blocked" in there to represent the fact it is a spear, and can be Blocked, unlike most normal AOE attacks.[/quote']

 

I assume whether or not an AE Hand to Hand attack can or cannot be blocked part of the sfx, however, I normally adopt the default that Hand attacks, no matter their source/sfx can be blocked simply because they are hand to hand in nature. This however can be remedied with the Indirect advantage, which renders a HtH attack unblockable.