Help building a Starship engine

[Icel]

[note: only have 5RE corebook]

 

I have a setting in which the Human race has a form of space travel known as "Sliding". Ships using this method brich normal space and travel to the Void, a dimension withour time. Afterward, the ship brich the Void and travel back to normal space. Because in the Void there isn't time, traveling through it is like teleporting from point A to point B in normal space. The difference is that the ship's crew is aware to the dimension the ship travels through.

 

I want to represent that with HERO, but have a difficulty:

Making it a Teleportation power with the "Passing through the Void" as the Special Effect, or

Making it a Extra-Dimensional Travel with the "No Time" as the Special Effect?

 

You can, of course, suggeste any other way to achieve the same effect.

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Help building a Starship engine

 

either of your initial ideas works pretty well

questions to ask yourself about how the drive works

 

1. while travel is instant, is there any prep time involved?

2. how is the drive fueled?

3. how accurate is the drives navigation ?

4. how reliable is the drive itself?

5. how often can the drive be used?

6. what kind of computer/guidance/navigation support does the drive require?

[Icel]

Re: Help building a Starship engine

 

Oh, I wasn't talking about the all Power buildup, but if we already on it, I will expand the idea a little:

1. There is a preperation time because opening a gate to the Void takes time.

2. To be true to the setting, this isn't a drive but a "mystic" power some human have and they can activate him on a starship (that's how human ships get around) so the power costs END and a lot of it.

3. Require a navigation skill roll.

4. Only has the human how activate it.

5. I guess there needs to be a period of time between activations. On the other hand, I can make it work when ever the pilot has END to pay.

6. Only a human with certain powers.

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Help building a Starship engine

 

ok, not a bad idea, and its ground thats been covered before, so I have more questions and some ideas

 

does this work via some kind of mental/psionic Power or is this closer to some kind of magic?

 

are there herbs/drugs etc involved to help the humans gather enough energy/END etc to make a jump, and if so, what kind of dangers are involved in the use of them?

 

Fire Fusion and Steel for Traveller covers this concept, along with Dune, and to some extent Warhammer 40K

 

do the pilots have cybernetics or some kind of magical focus to help?

[Icel]

Re: Help building a Starship engine

 

I don't know if to define that power has close to psionics or magic... the basic inspiration in its time was DBZ, although it has changed since then, so it is similar to the ki techniques acquired by the anime's fighters. After I watched Justice League and saw Green Lantern I realized that his powers was that I tryed to imitate.

 

But you can say it is a mental condition of some sort... thier don't achieve it by special material, but by strict discipline (END Reserve "Void Control Discipline").

Space travel is one of the powers achieve by the "Dust Discipline" which deals with movment. The "Stone Discipline" deals with defense while the "Sand Discipline" deals with attack.

[MitchellS]

Re: Help building a Starship engine

 

[note: only have 5RE corebook]

 

I have a setting in which the Human race has a form of space travel known as "Sliding". Ships using this method brich normal space and travel to the Void, a dimension withour time. Afterward, the ship brich the Void and travel back to normal space. Because in the Void there isn't time, traveling through it is like teleporting from point A to point B in normal space. The difference is that the ship's crew is aware to the dimension the ship travels through.

 

I want to represent that with HERO, but have a difficulty:

Making it a Teleportation power with the "Passing through the Void" as the Special Effect, or

Making it a Extra-Dimensional Travel with the "No Time" as the Special Effect?

 

You can, of course, suggeste any other way to achieve the same effect.

Pretty much just sounds like the Terran Empire displacer drive only with a couple of different limitations one time and the like. You might want to check that out.

[MitchellS]

Re: Help building a Starship engine

 

Here's an example of my jump drives for my GC game that I'm slowly working on:

 

18 Delta Series Jump Drive (120 LY To Repair): Teleportation 10", MegaScale (1" = 1 light-year; +3 1/2); Increased Endurance Cost (x5 END; -2), Costs Endurance (-1/2), Requires A Worm Hole Navigation Skill Roll (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), 12 Charges (-1/4), Not In Atmosphere (-1/4)

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Help building a Starship engine

 

If it were up to me, I would just use the "Faster-Than-Light Travel" Power, with the Special Effect that no time passes in normal space during the passage through the Void. There should be few occasions when the difference in time passage would affect in-game events, and the benefits and drawbacks would tend to balance out. You as GM can easily manipulate the Void to make the trip take more real-world time, if you need to for a particular plot development.

[Heroman]

Re: Help building a Starship engine

 

An issue which would help identify the potential powers is determining if time passes for the people in the Void. To their perception is it instantaneous? If so, TP sounds good. If not, EDM would be good.

The 1 reason I would not use FTL is that I would expect FTL to be detectable (and potentially stoppable) in real space (also because you quantify The Void as a different dimension).

 

-hm

[Icel]

Re: Help building a Starship engine

 

An issue which would help identify the potential powers is determining if time passes for the people in the Void. To their perception is it instantaneous? If so, TP sounds good. If not, EDM would be good.

The 1 reason I would not use FTL is that I would expect FTL to be detectable (and potentially stoppable) in real space (also because you quantify The Void as a different dimension).

 

-hm

Well, for the people in the Void, "time" do pass in the sense that thier metabolism acts normaly- they age, need to eat, drink etc.

[jguerin]

Re: Help building a Starship engine

 

[note: only have 5RE corebook]

 

I have a setting in which the Human race has a form of space travel known as "Sliding". Ships using this method brich normal space and travel to the Void, a dimension withour time. Afterward, the ship brich the Void and travel back to normal space. Because in the Void there isn't time, traveling through it is like teleporting from point A to point B in normal space. The difference is that the ship's crew is aware to the dimension the ship travels through.

 

I want to represent that with HERO, but have a difficulty:

Making it a Teleportation power with the "Passing through the Void" as the Special Effect, or

Making it a Extra-Dimensional Travel with the "No Time" as the Special Effect?

 

You can, of course, suggeste any other way to achieve the same effect.

 

Similiar to my SF atomic engines.

 

60 Atomic Drive: Multipower, 60-point reserve

4u 1) Spaceflight Mode: Flight 5", Cumulative (+1/2), Increased number of Inches x3000 (+3), MegaScale (1"=10,000km, can scale down to 1"=1km;+1 1/2), Only works in Space(-1/2) 40 cp

2u 2)Jump Drive: Extra-DImensial Movement (Any location in the Void, corresponding to location in normal space where the ship enters), 25cp, Requires a PS: Astrogation Roll (-1/4) 20cp

2u 3) Thrusters: Flight 10". 20cp

Total Cost: 68

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Help building a Starship engine

 

Well' date=' for the people in the Void, "time" do pass in the sense that thier metabolism acts normaly- they age, need to eat, drink etc.[/quote']

Then it sounds more like Extra-Dimensional Movement to me. The human operator opens a gate to the Void, and the ship enters. The ship travels through the Void using whatever kind of 'normal' movement you want. When it gets to the proper place in the Void, the human operator opens a gate back to normal space.

 

You can just say that as a Special Effect no time in the "real" universe passes as compared to the time that passes for the ship and crew in the Void.

 

Or you can put the Time Travel Adder on the Extra-Dimensional Movement Power. I'd use a "Group of Related Dates" and define it as "the exact moment in time I left normal space". This would mean that when you return to normal space, you automatically return the same instant you left, even if you're far away in physical distance. This would give you the effect of "no time passes" in the real universe yet let things time time -- maybe even a long time -- for a ship and crew traveling through the Void.

 

One thing concerns me about the "no time passes in the real universe" idea, though...it will do away with one of the classic sorts of tense encounters: pursuit.

 

If ship A is pursuing ship B, and ship B jumps into the Void, then ship A can never pursue ship B, because by the time ship A can jump to the Void, ship B has already exited the Void at its destination. If even a fraction of a second passes between when ship B jumps and the pursuing ship A jumps, ship B is always going to reach its destination before ship A can jump.

 

This also means you can't have combat or someone "laying in wait" in the Void, because two ships who don't "jump" through the same gate can never meet in the Void.

 

I'd strongly suggest you not do the "takes no time" thing, because it removes the chance for a lot of dramatic scenes from your game. But if that's the way you want it to work...go for it!

[Icel]

Re: Help building a Starship engine

 

If ship A is pursuing ship B, and ship B jumps into the Void, then ship A can never pursue ship B, because by the time ship A can jump to the Void, ship B has already exited the Void at its destination. If even a fraction of a second passes between when ship B jumps and the pursuing ship A jumps, ship B is always going to reach its destination before ship A can jump.

Well, I didn't tought about it that way but I guess you are right. But the Void laws and travel method was never supposed to be the focus of the game- it's the background.

Thanks for your replay. It gave me a new line of idea to work on.

[MitchellS]

Re: Help building a Starship engine

 

Well, I didn't tought about it that way but I guess you are right. But the Void laws and travel method was never supposed to be the focus of the game- it's the background.

Thanks for your replay. It gave me a new line of idea to work on.

You can just use the teleportation method above [with a few personal flavor modifications] and include a side effect limitation stating that people in the void age: -1/4. That should cover it pretty well.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Help building a Starship engine

 

Well, I didn't tought about it that way but I guess you are right. But the Void laws and travel method was never supposed to be the focus of the game- it's the background.

Thanks for your replay. It gave me a new line of idea to work on.

You're welcome. And I didn't mean to imply it should be the focus of the game.

 

It's just a method of travel.

 

But if you think about it, every method of travel ever used by Man has been used in a story, book, movie, or game as a means of adding a thrill and sense of tension and suspense to that story. It's a classic.

 

I was just voicing my opinion that I wouldn't set things up in such a way as to rule out that kind of plot element from my games.

 

Hmm...

 

Come to think of it, though...

 

 

If you used the construct I suggested that includes the "Time Travel to a Related Group of Dates" Adder, you could still have pursuit and/or combat in the Void.

 

The reason for this is that at the end of the trip through the Void, the ship travels back in time, meaning that for all intents and purposes the trip "took no time" as far as the rest of the universe is concerned. But, since it does take time...

 

Maybe an example would make things clearer.

 

Ship A is pursuing Ship B.

 

Ship B jumps to the Void at 1:00 p.m.

 

Ship B exits the Void at 1:00 p.m. at its destination.

 

...but let's look at what happens "between" the start and end of the jump:

 

Ship A is pursuing Ship B.

 

Ship B jumps to the Void at 1:00 p.m.

 

Ship A jumps to the Void at 1:05 p.m.

 

Ship B makes for its destination. The trip takes 4 hours, meaning they can exit the Void at 5:00 p.m.

 

Ship A is slightly faster than Ship B. It catches up with Ship B in the Void at 4:45 p.m. The ships engage in battle, hurting each other.

 

Ship B, damaged, still manages to jump out of the Void at 5:00 p.m., which sends it back in time to 1:00 p.m.

 

Ship A, also damaged, jumps out of the Void a moment later, at 5:00:30 p.m. -- 30 seconds behind Ship B -- and is sent back in time to 1:05 p.m.

 

Ship B now has 5 minutes (the time difference between their entries into the Void) to either try and run some more and hide, or prepare an ambush for Ship A when she pops out of the Void.

 

For the next 4 hours, the ships will overlap each other -- both ships will exist simultaneously in the "real" universe and in the Void.

 

Do you see what I mean? Doing it this way still lets you have the "takes no time in the real universe" effect, but also still lets you do pursuit, combat, and so on while in the Void.

 

 

Doing things this way does bring up a could of points I'd like to address, however.

 

First: What about paradox?

 

Suppose in our scenario above, this happens:

 

Ship B jumps at 1:00 p.m.

 

Ship B returns at 1:00 p.m., her cargo hold (with the irreplaceable cargo the people in Ship A were after) blown open and wrecked by the combat in the Void with Ship A. The people on Ship A, who were getting ready to follow Ship B into the Void, realize what the combat would do, and decide not to jump to the Void in pursuit after all.

 

Now what happens? We have a paradox on our hands. Ship B is damaged because of being in combat with Ship A...but Ship A, seeing an undesirable result to the combat, doesn't go into combat. That means Ship B wouldn't be damaged, there would be no "warning sign" to keep Ship A from jumping, so Ship A does jump, and damages Ship B, and...

 

Makes you want to tear your hair out, doesn't it?

 

Fortunately, there's a simple way around this. Put this restriction on the Void drive system:

 

For every minute spent in the Void, the point of exit must be at least one light-minute in "real" space away from the point of entry.

 

What this means is that information (light) cannot get from the point of exit back to the point of entry in time to change the decision to enter the Void in the first place.

 

I don't think this will be a real restriction on your game, since I'm guessing you're talking maybe hours to weeks to cross many light-years of space. This is just a sort of "just in case" to prevent possible paradoxes.

 

 

Second: What about multiple jumps?

 

If a ship jumps into the Void at 1:00 p.m., spends 4 hours there, and then jumps back to the "real" universe -- moving back in time to 1:00 p.m. -- what's to prevent it from immediately jumping to the Void again, and meeting itself in the Void?

 

Once again, the solution is simple. Just add this to the description of the process:

 

For every minute spent in the Void between entry and exit of a single jump, at least one minute must elapse once the ship is back in the "normal" universe before it can jump to the Void again.

 

In other words, a ship jumps to the Void at 1:00 p.m., spends 4 hours traveling, exits at 5:00 p.m. its internal time, and is moved back in time to the same point it left -- 1:00 p.m.

 

Now that it's back in normal space, the ship can't jump to the Void again until at least 4 hours -- the time it spent in the Void -- have elapsed. Once 5:00 p.m. in the "real" universe rolls around, the ship is free to jump to the Void again if it needs to do so.

 

That will keep a ship from "meeting itself" in the Void.

[austenandrews]

Re: Help building a Starship engine

 

My first thought is, what exactly does "no time passes" actually mean? If you're talking about light-year distances, you're pretty much out of the realm of simultaneity (quantum teleportation notwithstanding). But if this is a mystical starship engine, you're probably not running a game that cares about those kinds of details.

 

Is the idea that when you're in the Void, no matter how much time you spend there, you (meaning the guy with the mystic power) always exit at exactly the same moment? So a ship could enter the Void, park for a few weeks for repairs, then exit with no time passage in the real world? If that's the case, you have to be careful if you want ships to interact inside the Void. Otherwise you've got paradoxes, as Dr. A pointed out.

 

(Warning: Long geeky thought experiment to follow, based on Icel's interesting premise. Before I go on - I'd buy it as EDM. )

 

One solution that might be fun is to say that the Void truly is a "timeless" dimension. When you enter, you're actually there simultaneously with every other Void traveler, past and future, including countless iterations of yourself. However you can't interact with or even perceive them except under narrow conditions. (Maybe it's a realm of ghostly shapes and eerie, unintelligible whispers.) Set one of those conditions to be that interaction is only possible if Ship B enters the Void within, say, five minutes of Ship A. Ship B can then "follow the mystic trail" of Ship A within the Void. Since they're both present simultaneously, there's no reason Ship B can't then find Ship A.

 

Now, no matter how long Ship A spends in the Void, it will always exit at exactly the same moment it entered - unless it comes into contact with another ship. If contact occurs, Ship A will then exit the Void at the same time as Ship B. Ship B has moved Ship A's exit point ahead in time. So the "instantaneous travel" isn't flawless - your exit time can be delayed if your pursuer catches you in the Void. (Define "catches" as making any kind of contact - maybe of a mystical nature before a physical meeting.) Finally, add the qualifier that the longer you stay in the Void, the better chance your pursuer has of catching you.

 

Now you've got a setup where the following is possible: Ship A has lost a firefight with the much larger Ship B. Ship A jumps into the Void, badly damaged. Ship A theoretically has a vast amount of time to make repairs.

 

However, five minutes later Ship B jumps into the Void in hot pursuit. Ship B is tracking Ship A but hasn't made contact yet. The weird/cool thing is that since they're in the Void, time doesn't necessarily flow the same for the two ships. Even if Ship A immediately travels to its exit point, say in four hours, Ship B can spend a week searching the Void and maybe catch Ship A before it exits. Conversely Ship A can spend a week making repairs and then exit, while Ship B exits the Void having only experienced five minutes. Ship B is still in hot pursuit, but Ship A is now fully repaired.

 

You can't get a paradox out of that, because any contact between the two ships moves the entire scene to the latest possible time. Moreover the skill of the individual mystics dictates how long contact can be avoided. If Ship A is driven by a novice and Ship B by a master, Ship A had best not tarry in the Void. If Ship A has a master and Ship B a novice, Ship A has all the time in the world to make repairs and will emerge with some surprises for its pursuer. If both mystics are masters, the contest is afoot!

 

This also provides plot hooks for making contact with "lost ships" from the past, and who knows what else?

 

And it wouldn't be hard to run, as long as all the PCs were on the same ship. (I wouldn't recommend having a PC waiting on either side and others in transit, though - you'll have to freeze time and resolve all the Void issues before determining who comes out at what time.)

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Help building a Starship engine

 

Some very interesting thoughts there, austenandrews! Yes, it's an interesting topic all the way around, I'd say!

 

I especially like your idea of the "Void full of ghostly images and whispers" coupled with the variable subjective time for each ship, controlled in part by the skill of the "Void pilot".

 

Hmmm...

 

Instead of making it a set time -- like 5 minutes -- in which a following ship could track an earlier ship, why not do it like this:

 

To "track" a ship that previously entered the Void, and be able to follow its trail such that you can come into contact with it requires a Void Pilot check. For every two increments on the Time Chart between the entry of the first ship and the entry of the second ship, apply a -1 penalty to the Skill Roll. (Example: someone with a Void Pilot Skill check of 13- wants to track a ship that entered the Void earlier. If that ship entered 1 minute earlier, that's 6 steps on the Time Chart or a -3 penalty, so the pilot would succeed if he rolls a 10 or less. For 20 minutes (another two steps) he'd need to roll a 9 or less and so on.)

 

That way, you could potentially track ships that jumped weeks, months, or years ago -- but you'd have to be a practically supernatural pilot to be able to do it!

[Icel]

Re: Help building a Starship engine

 

Long geeky thought experiment to follow, based on Icel's interesting premise. Before I go on - I'd buy it as EDM

First of all- thanks!

 

Now, let my say that I love the ideas that you guys brought up. I had some ideas for another SF setting about a "Warp plane" which is full with Psionic Ghosts that make the passage for normal humans impossible, only psions can manage the pass.

 

Back to the Void issue, although your ideas are cool, I realy am looking for something less complicated. When I think about Void travel I see shps going through a vass, shifting, grey emptiness.

In the past I recognized that a paradox problem can occur because of the "no real time, but continuing Void travel", but the people I talked to then said they didn't saw any problem.

 

Eventually, I think I would go with this option:

You can just use the teleportation method above [with a few personal flavor modifications] and include a side effect limitation stating that people in the void age: -1/4. That should cover it pretty well.

Unless another good one is found that won't make the concept too complex.

[MitchellS]

Re: Help building a Starship engine

 

I always prefer to keep things simple, especially when they are more for effect than any real game issues. My take would be:

 

22 Void Drive: Teleportation 10", MegaScale (1" = 100 light-years; +4), Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 1 LY (+1/4) (105 Active Points); OAF Engine Bulky (-1 1/2), Requires A Void Navigation Skill Roll (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Costs Endurance (-1/2), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Characters must spend/age 1 hour for each light year traveled through the void; -1/2), Not In Atmosphere (-1/4)

 

This engine will allow people to teleport through the "void" and can cover any distance between 1 and 1,000 LYs. The people spend 1 hour in the void for each LY traveled even though they appear in normal space only a second later.

[Icel]

Re: Help building a Starship engine

 

Nice. I thought it would require "Increase Mass" because it is a power of the pilot, so when I bought X10 mass (~100 ton) the cost was way to high.

There is still one problem: I wanted this power to be able to use even on only one man, without a starship, but because of the Focus limitation, it can't be.

[MitchellS]

Re: Help building a Starship engine

 

Nice. I thought it would require "Increase Mass" because it is a power of the pilot, so when I bought X10 mass (~100 ton) the cost was way to high.

There is still one problem: I wanted this power to be able to use even on only one man, without a starship, but because of the Focus limitation, it can't be.

Make it a multipower and change the focus limitation to variable limitation [must have up to -11/2]: -3/4. slot 1 would be the ship teleport as listed above [without the focus limitation]. slot 2 would be a personal teleport with enough limitations to cover the -11/2 needed for the variable limitation [things like increased end, concentration, etc].

[MitchellS]

Re: Help building a Starship engine

 

Make it a multipower and change the focus limitation to variable limitation [must have up to -11/2]: -3/4. slot 1 would be the ship teleport as listed above [without the focus limitation]. slot 2 would be a personal teleport with enough limitations to cover the -11/2 needed for the variable limitation [things like increased end' date= concentration, etc].

35 Void Control Multipower (105 points): Variable Limitation [-11/2]: -3/4, Requires A Void Navigation Roll: -1/2, Extra Time-Full Phase: -1/2, Side Effect always occurs [Characters must spend/age 1 hour for each light year traveled through the void]: -1/2, Not in Atmosphere: -1/4

3 1- Void Drive: Teleportation 10", MegaScale (1" = 100 light-years; +4), Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 1 LY (+1/4); Variable Limitation is OAF Engine Bulky]

3 2- Personal Void Travel: Teleportation 10", MegaScale (1" = 100 light-years; +4), Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 1 LY (+1/4); Variable Limitation is 3x Endurance: -1 and Concentration -0: -1/2

[Icel]

Re: Help building a Starship engine

 

35 Void Control Multipower (105 points): Variable Limitation [-11/2]: -3/4' date=' Requires A Void Navigation Roll: -1/2, Extra Time-Full Phase: -1/2, Side Effect always occurs [Characters must spend/age 1 hour for each light year traveled through the void']: -1/2, Not in Atmosphere: -1/4

3 1- Void Drive: Teleportation 10", MegaScale (1" = 100 light-years; +4), Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 1 LY (+1/4); Variable Limitation is OAF Engine Bulky]

3 2- Personal Void Travel: Teleportation 10", MegaScale (1" = 100 light-years; +4), Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 1 LY (+1/4); Variable Limitation is 3x Endurance: -1 and Concentration -0: -1/2

Ok, I like it! Problem solved.

 

edit:

HERO Designer is a cool software... I came up with this power with it:

Stardust Technique: Teleportation 10", x1,024 Increased Mass, Safe Blind Teleport (+1/4), MegaScale (1" = 100 lightyears; +4), Can Be Scaled Down: 1" = 1 lightyear (+1/4) (385 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), -1 1/4), Requires A Navigation Skill Roll (-1/2), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2)

Real Cost: 103. END Cost: 76.