Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

[Gary]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

And every other gaming group has had this come up?

 

I'd like to hear from anyone else who's thought of or had to deny this.

 

Really.

 

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly thought of it. And never ran it by my GM except as a joke since I knew he'd simply tear up the character sheet if he thought I was serious.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Actually, END reserve is a damn fine concept in and of itself. Define everything you do as coming from the reserve.; Sell back your END (say 50 END, for 25 points) and use it to buy a reserve (say 100 points with 15 REC).

 

You get twice as much END which likely recovers faster and doesn't vanish if you're KO'd. The only drawback is that you can't recover more than once per turn.

[incrdbil]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Armor Piercing. Sometimes MAs go with Find Weakness' date=' but damn few characters go long without an AP attack. Which is why I hate the advantage.[/quote']

 

AP.s not that overwhelming. In a campaigh with defenses averaging around a low end of 20, mid point of 25, high start of 30, that AP cuts what you are facing to 10/13/15, and 60 point/12 DC standard starting attacks

 

On a 60 pt attack 12d6 EB: average 42 stun: 22/17/12 stun gets in through the benchmarks above.

 

8d6 EB AP: average 28 stun: 18/15/13.

 

As defenses go up, AP attacks start to catch up..but I'd expect to see more hardened defenses in the more powerful settings as well.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

I want to take the flip side of Neil's argument. I do not see any problem with the existing rules for foci or OIHID. An OAF is a considerable disadvantage because it is so easily messed with. To whit if an attempt to grab or attack a focus or focus-like SFX is not made at least once a combat then the opposition is using Artifical Idiocy. Likewise the use of OIHID does not bother me because for a good OIHID there should be some reason that the PC cannot be in Hero mode 100% of the time. Kingdom Come, that oft cited tome, has Billy Batson mistaken for his superhuman alter ego because of the look (which Luthor cultivated). Thunderstrike (the Eric Masterson version) was very complicated by being temporarily trapped in HERO mode since his coworkers and family couldn't deal with him being 6 foot 4 395 lbs of Hero hunk.

 

Just my Opinion, but 22 years of HERO gaming can't be that wrong.

 

Hawksmoor

[David Blue]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

I'd like to raise an issue that might seem off topic - fun.

 

I first became aware of this "fun" issue in a negative way, when a player came to me and said he wanted to sell all his Luck back and buy Unluck like the other players had. Wildly unlucky things happened to their characters all the time, often acting as hooks for their hunters to act against them. The players had a great time constantly trying to wriggle out of all the difficult, often comical situation they were in (there's a famous old Australian cartoon with the punchline "For gorsake, stop laughing: this is serious!"*) and anticipate the menaces coming their way. For the Lucky player, it was like being trapped in the early life of Teela Brown. If he looked for a taxi, there it was, going his way.

 

The first thing I did was give the man his points and his Unluck, so he could have big fun like the other players.

 

The second thing I did was take stock of myself. As a wise character once said: "A man's got to know his limitations."

 

Certain gamemaster are disproportionately effective in enforcing some disadvantages and limitations in ways that are effective, and in ways that are fun. Both factors can and probably should be taken into account when deciding what limitations and disadvantages to encourage players to take.

 

One gamemaster might be unusually effective in providing roleplaying fun based on the focus limitation. Obviously he should give the full points for foci, to bribe the players to take a limitation that experience tells him will lead to fun for everyone.

 

Another gamemaster might find their focus-enforcement and roleplaying-encouragement ideas consistently going in different directions. In that case, the gamemaster might well choose not enforce the limitation, in which case it should be worth no points in that game. The risk is: if the gamemaster hews to his duty and enforces the limitation, it's liable to be less fun for everyone than if the focus of the play was elsewhere.

 

You may be trying to extend your abilities as a gamemaster by focusing on stuff you haven't been as good at in the past - which is a perfectly good idea. Maybe you're lousy with foci, and you're not going to live with that weak point any more. Good for you!

 

But if that's not the plan, why offer lots of points to the players for doing stuff that will lead them away from where the fun (for everyone) is?

 

"Know yourself."

 

*Unluck in action

http://www.cultureandrecreation.gov.au/articles/cartoons/

[David Blue]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

By the way, I think tesuji has hit some out of the park in this thread. Bravo!

 

If you've made up your vampire main-campaign-enemies, or in my case if you've just bought hundreds of zombie figures with every intention of using them (surely every game can be improved by hordes of glow-in-the-dark zombies?) - should that affect the limitations you give for "only affects the undead" or "doesn't affect the undead" compared to the limitation points you'd give in a game where it was going to be flying saucers wall-to-wall, baby? I should hope so!

 

It's the same with focus costs and a game where you know in advance it is or it isn't going to be about foci and what can go wrong with foci and for focus-users.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

And every other gaming group has had this come up?

 

I'd like to hear from anyone else who's thought of or had to deny this.

 

Really.

 

Nope... and it's so late right now, I can't even wrap my brain around why it is broken... but that's just because I'm tired.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Actually, END reserve is a damn fine concept in and of itself. Define everything you do as coming from the reserve.; Sell back your END (say 50 END, for 25 points) and use it to buy a reserve (say 100 points with 15 REC).

 

You get twice as much END which likely recovers faster and doesn't vanish if you're KO'd. The only drawback is that you can't recover more than once per turn.

 

If I understand you right... that you are saying that END Reserve is one of those stand-alone "must haves" if you could get away with it... then yes, I'd agree. END Reserves... especially in my games where I let players Push up to half the active points in a power (1 for 1) if they want... can be quite a hack to the system.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

That's because either your players haven't thought of it' date=' or they figured they'd never get it by you.[/quote']

 

Or maybe, just maybe, they realize that it only works the way it currently does because... hell, I have no idea what Steve was thinking, it completely defies all existing precedent, all possible analogies AND common sense.

 

And possibly the RAWIYDIF (rules as written if you don't include FAQ's).

 

I mean, seriously, there was no earthly reason to have that work.

 

(vein pops out)

 

I don't think _anyone_ with decent rules knowledge would think of it, they'd _have_ to have read about the dodge. Because it's not only stupid... it's counterintuitive.

[David Blue]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

I've seen a power armoured (obvious inaccessible focus) only in hero identity elemental control of powers based on end reserves (with many powers being bought with a limitation for needing END) be used to piggy-back further tricks that were - effective. The bigger you buy your main attack, the more energy you have for almost everything, while still gaining (yet another) limitation for it, so you're off to a good start building clever things. To me, after that, it always feels like the munchkining is incomplete till the END batteries are set up. (grin)

 

This is all logical, following from the original focus power-suit concept. It makes sense that powered armoured guy is using END batteries, not his own END. Having someone specialise in END control and "force " for attacks makes sense, assuming you are talking about the sorts of things powered armour guy would concentrate on. It makes at least as much sense as many elemental controls that are often seen, such as mental powers. And haven't you seen Iron Man's hip pods? Two charges of END batteries, obviously! (grin)

 

It seemed to me at the time, and still does, that it's the way Champions works by default, not any ill-intentions by the player (who was very moderate in using his power compared to what he could have done) that lifts up this character type and others like it and pushes down the value of some others. Powered armour guy wasn't even excessive in the context of a good few of his team-mates, starting with only in hero identity, focused (of course), stats-bought-down-and-then-back-up elemental control god (etc.) man. First you pick your focus, because that's the root of supreme power, and then you build on it, higher and higher.

 

One of the minor tricks that went with that was to hang a couple of obvious accessible focus items, like a micro-detect-danger radar dish, outside the armour's protection. Of course you could target each dinky little item individually - if you didn't mind missing, and if you didn't mind wasting your actions in trivial ways while Armoured-All-Being was ripping into you with the annihilator cannon. That's a good trick with obvious accessible foci.

 

When I think of the price break for focus, its effect on the game, and my own desire or non-desire to deal with that, memories of characters such as these are my ghostly guides. (grin)

 

Bottom line: if you're the gamemaster, nothing is legal till you say it is. If you don't like how a concept is prone to flower, you can trim it at the top (putting a damage cap on how all those extra focus points will be spent), or at the root (which seemed to me to be the dominating influence of foci, which I have little desire to plot around), or at any point in between. Steve Long is not going to come to your house and say: "You have to let the players do that." So it's your choice and your responsibility to decide where you want to say: "Stop!" And my own, personal, individual choice, based on my own strengths and limitations and not meant to apply to anyone else, is to say: "Don't even start that."

[Gary]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Nope... and it's so late right now' date=' I can't even wrap my brain around why it is broken... but that's just because I'm tired.[/quote']

 

 

Basic form of the abuse:

 

Assume your character spends 20 End a phase when all powers are in use. What you do is to purchase a 20 End Reserve for 2 active points, and then add 1 googol charges for a +1 advantage. Thus for 4 real points, your character essentially has 0 End cost on every single power that uses End.

 

There are more advanced versions of the abuse that are way more abusive than the simple version.

[Gary]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Or maybe, just maybe, they realize that it only works the way it currently does because... hell, I have no idea what Steve was thinking, it completely defies all existing precedent, all possible analogies AND common sense.

 

And possibly the RAWIYDIF (rules as written if you don't include FAQ's).

 

I mean, seriously, there was no earthly reason to have that work.

 

(vein pops out)

 

I don't think _anyone_ with decent rules knowledge would think of it, they'd _have_ to have read about the dodge. Because it's not only stupid... it's counterintuitive.

 

Well, I thought of it.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to David Blue again."

[Sean Waters]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Erm, if you bought an END Reserve with charges, to my mind, that would just mean that you could only use the END and the REC a limited number of times: it wouldn't change how it works, or give you, in effect, more END Reserves. If you get into advantage territory (the +1 for a googol, or a googolplex, if you fancy) then all it means is you will never run out of uses of the END Reserve, but you'd still have to recover any END you used before you could use it again, so I don't really see that one. Charges is a way to avoid paying END: it is meaningless except as an advantage for powers that do not use END.

 

I am cogniscent of the rather odd situation outlined by Hugh Neilson: I never saw the need for having END Reserve in the system, when you could just build it with a limited form of END and REC anyway. The END in an END Reserve is 1/5 normal cost and the REC is 1/2 normal cost. Why? Well OK, the REC is probably over priced given that normal REC recovers both END and STUN, but the END itself is ludicrously cheap.

 

Moreover (and fixing this would largely fix it to my mind) if you drain END from the Reserve (with the drain power) it goes at 2 points per point, not 10 points per point.

 

Having said that, I've not spotted anyone abusing END Reserves in this way, but if you do, report it immediately to the authorities!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Actually, the real abuse is buying all your powers "1 googolplex charges" (+1) "Charges Never Recover" (reduces from +1 advantage to -1 limitation).

 

All your powers are now 0 END and half price.

 

Oh, and your character never gets into a self-respecting campaign.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Actually, the real abuse is buying all your powers "1 googolplex charges" (+1) "Charges Never Recover" (reduces from +1 advantage to -1 limitation).

 

All your powers are now 0 END and half price.

 

Oh, and your character never gets into a self-respecting campaign.

 

...unless they are also willing to accept the disadvantage:

 

'Inveterate self abuser and exhibitionist' Common, Strong

 

Oh, sorry, you said self respecting, didn't you.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Actually, the real abuse is buying all your powers "1 googolplex charges" (+1) "Charges Never Recover" (reduces from +1 advantage to -1 limitation).

 

All your powers are now 0 END and half price.

 

Oh, and your character never gets into a self-respecting campaign.

 

But buying a big END Reserve with that limitation on it let's you slap x10 Endurance cost on all your powers....

[Mentor]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Ok, I'll bite.

 

Are you saying that if he did not have OIF armor, he would say "screw the secret id, lets not run into the closet to change and lets start the fight now"?

 

if not, then it seems like the OIF isn't really making this any worse than the usual secret ID thing, right?

 

 

 

Well if he was Tarantula Boy, he would simply say screw this secret ID and start whipping the bad guys with his webs, venom blasts, high strength and/or high SPD and Martial Arts. Tarantula Boy is already super tough from his radiation accident, so his costume is just a disguise.

 

As it is with an OIF Power Armor, Cyberknight would have to say screw this Secret ID and find a safe place to put his armor on, or be vulnerable to super sized attacks as he is just a superior (CON and DEX 20 and SPD 4) but normal human out of his armor.

 

I think you would agree that it isn't quite the same thing.

[Mentor]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Ever get your fly caught when you're changing into the power armour? Really puts a cramp on your fighting style' date=' let me tell you... [/quote']

OUCH! Hey, Sean, some of my GMs read these threads. Thanks a lot.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Actually, the real abuse is buying all your powers "1 googolplex charges" (+1) "Charges Never Recover" (reduces from +1 advantage to -1 limitation).

 

All your powers are now 0 END and half price.

 

Oh, and your character never gets into a self-respecting campaign.

Actually, unless you took them as Continuing Charges, wouldn't it mean you'd have that Charge of END available for just an instant, and then it would be gone again?

[tesuji]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Well if he was Tarantula Boy' date=' he would simply say screw this secret ID and start whipping the bad guys with his webs, venom blasts, high strength and/or high SPD and Martial Arts. Tarantula Boy is already super tough from his radiation accident, so [b']his[/b] costume is just a disguise.

 

As it is with an OIF Power Armor, Cyberknight would have to say screw this Secret ID and find a safe place to put his armor on, or be vulnerable to super sized attacks as he is just a superior (CON and DEX 20 and SPD 4) but normal human out of his armor.

 

I think you would agree that it isn't quite the same thing.

 

Absoilutely... a character without a secret ID (including one who has just decided he doesn't have a secret ID) is challenged by his dressup time oif issue.

 

My point was, as related to the example given not meant as a universal example applying to any concievable case, a character with a secret ID who is playing the secret ID, is not significantly affected by having to don his suit (OIF). The same "i had to jump in the closet and suit up while the bad guys run amok" see-my-disad thing could be said by mutant boy who has a secret ID who has no focus whatsoever.

 

maybe thats clearer now?

 

There certainly can be many examples of how OIF can be played into a drawback, but a secret ID guy saying "i must find a closet to don my suit out of sight" isn't one of them. IMO at least.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Absoilutely... a character without a secret ID (including one who has just decided he doesn't have a secret ID) is challenged by his dressup time oif issue.

 

My point was, as related to the example given not meant as a universal example applying to any concievable case, a character with a secret ID who is playing the secret ID, is not significantly affected by having to don his suit (OIF). The same "i had to jump in the closet and suit up while the bad guys run amok" see-my-disad thing could be said by mutant boy who has a secret ID who has no focus whatsoever.

 

maybe thats clearer now?

 

There certainly can be many examples of how OIF can be played into a drawback, but a secret ID guy saying "i must find a closet to don my suit out of sight" isn't one of them. IMO at least.

I'd disagree with that premise. Mutant Boy with a Secret ID can slap on just his mask and be in action against the bad guys a second later. Powered Armor Dude has to spend several seconds (at least) putting on his suit before he can engage the enemy, and until he completes that he's vulnerable to attack. Secret ID protection is only part of the equation for powered armor characters.

 

Look at Dr. Octopus's attack on Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson at the cafe in Spider-Man 2. He threw a car at Peter Parker, which PP was able to dodge only because of his spider sense and super reflexes, plus the car actually hit Peter as he protected Mary Jane with his body. Then Doc Ock threw Parker against the back wall hard enough to collapse the wall on top of him.

 

Had that been Tony Stark having coffee with Mary Jane Watson, he'd have been a greasy red smear along with Mary Jane.

[tesuji]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

 

I'd disagree with that premise. Mutant Boy with a Secret ID can slap on just his mask and be in action against the bad guys a second later. Powered Armor Dude has to spend several seconds (at least) putting on his suit before he can engage the enemy,

You are making assumptions not presented in the rules or in the example.

 

The example did not say "and it takes longer to put on an OIF suit than my usual costume." had it said so, that would be a different matter.

 

By the rules, iirc, putting on one's costume is defined as a full phase action, or at least it used to be. Readying a focus is iirc a half-phase action, though of course room for longer is possible.

 

if the battlesuit was defined as "takes longer to do than a normal super's costume" then obviously we would be discussing a different issue.

 

I see to recall IMs armor being zip and don in at least one version.

and until he completes that he's vulnerable to attack. Secret ID protection is only part of the equation for powered armor characters.

As i said, there are a whole lot of ways OIF can be made a disadvantage. The "no power when not suited up" is one of them.

 

"need to duck into closet to change first" is not when a secret ID is involved.

 

Look at Dr. Octopus's attack on Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson at the cafe in Spider-Man 2. He threw a car at Peter Parker, which PP was able to dodge only because of his spider sense and super reflexes, plus the car actually hit Peter as he protected Mary Jane with his body. Then Doc Ock threw Parker against the back wall hard enough to collapse the wall on top of him.

 

Had that been Tony Stark having coffee with Mary Jane Watson, he'd have been a greasy red smear along with Mary Jane.

 

good example of "other ways OIF can be a disadvantage".

 

should we continue to list more?

 

OIF can be stolen, while spidermans webs cannot.

 

Ok lets play this a different way... if a player said

 

"Man oh man, last session things went bad. My guy ran into a closet in order to don my SuperDude suit while the villains were wreaking havoc and that was tough cuz he sees the purpose of his heroing being to protect society and not just win the fight."

 

Armed with that, the players own statement of the limitation as it played out... was he talking about a secret ID or a battlesuit or both?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

You are making assumptions not presented in the rules or in the example.

 

The example did not say "and it takes longer to put on an OIF suit than my usual costume." had it said so, that would be a different matter.

 

By the rules, iirc, putting on one's costume is defined as a full phase action, or at least it used to be. Readying a focus is iirc a half-phase action, though of course room for longer is possible.

 

if the battlesuit was defined as "takes longer to do than a normal super's costume" then obviously we would be discussing a different issue.

 

I see to recall IMs armor being zip and don in at least one version.

 

As i said, there are a whole lot of ways OIF can be made a disadvantage. The "no power when not suited up" is one of them.

 

"need to duck into closet to change first" is not when a secret ID is involved.

 

good example of "other ways OIF can be a disadvantage".

 

should we continue to list more?

 

OIF can be stolen, while spidermans webs cannot.

That still misses the entire point. We're discussing the values of Focuses in this thread. Spider-Man still had his powers in the example I gave. Even in a "zip on" version of his Iron Man armor Tony Stark would have been badly hurt or killed; never mind that it would have totally blown his Secret ID. (And IIRC the rules do state that powered armor may take longer than one Phase to put on, depending on special effects. As far as I'm concerned if it takes less than several seconds to get it on and operational it's no longer a Focus but rather OIHID. That's how we treat it in our campaign.)

 

Characters do not exist in a vaccuum; they become characters only within the framework of a campaign. Otherwise they're just stacks of meaningless numbers. Focus rules and Secret ID are simply two factors that can and will interact in a character's campaign. They may complement or complicate each other, but they are certainly not the same thing by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Ok lets play this a different way... if a player said

 

"Man oh man, last session things went bad. My guy ran into a closet in order to don my SuperDude suit while the villains were wreaking havoc and that was tough cuz he sees the purpose of his heroing being to protect society and not just win the fight." Armed with that, the players own statement of the limitation as it played out... was he talking about a secret ID or a battlesuit or both?

Is there any reason he can't be speaking about both? It's not like they're mutually exclusive.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Actually, the real abuse is buying all your powers "1 googolplex charges" (+1) "Charges Never Recover" (reduces from +1 advantage to -1 limitation).

 

All your powers are now 0 END and half price.

 

Oh, and your character never gets into a self-respecting campaign.

You have a few adventures between game sessions. Your out of your 256 charges. They never recover. What now?

 

EDIT: That was me being Mr. Too Clever for His Own Good GM Man. I couldn't resist.