Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Nope. There is no functional difference between a googleplex of Charges and 0 END. However' date=' trying to buy X10 END on a googleplex of Charges still runs afoul of the metarule because it does not limit the character and hence is worth -0. Any GM stupid enough to permit that needs to be immediately castrated and burned at the stake so he won't breed and lower Earth's collective IQ.[/quote']

Yes. This is true. Increased End Cost can only be bought for Powers that cost End to begin with, and any Power with Charges does not (although I kind of like the idea of a Power that is both restricted in the number of times you use it AND costs End; Charges + Costs End; I've done this before). However, I think Gary was talking about how you can put Charges on your End Reserve to effectively multiply your End by the number of Charges, then buy everything with Increased End Cost (that would be all the other Powers).

[Gary]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Nope. There is no functional difference between a googleplex of Charges and 0 END. However' date=' trying to buy X10 END on a googleplex of Charges still runs afoul of the metarule because it does not limit the character and hence is worth -0. Any GM stupid enough to permit that needs to be immediately castrated and burned at the stake so he won't breed and lower Earth's collective IQ.[/quote']

 

 

The basic form of the abuse merely buys 1 googol charges on a 20 End Reserve for a total of 4 real points. No limitations here at all, and now all your powers have 0 End cost.

[Gary]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Yeah' date=' yeah. I know. That's why I said, "...no matter who...." To that I say, tough sh**! We're all human. [/quote']

 

 

Hence this is why I'm using this example as an example of a power that is 'too good' when Dr A was asking for one.

[Gary]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Yes. This is true. Increased End Cost can only be bought for Powers that cost End to begin with' date=' and any Power with Charges does not (although I kind of like the idea of a Power that is both restricted in the number of times you use it AND costs End; Charges + Costs End; I've done this before). However, I think Gary was talking about how you can put Charges on your End Reserve to effectively multiply your End by the number of Charges, then buy everything with Increased End Cost (that would be all the [i']other[/i] Powers).

 

 

Yep.

 

Also, for any power that you don't need to be Persistent, you can take the Costs End limitation for an additional -1/2.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Bit off topic, but stuff I didn't know (and don't agree with...)

 

Carrying this logic forward' date=' a power drawing END from an Endurance Reserve wouldn’t shut off if the character were Knocked Out or Stunned. You could buy a Personal END (-1/2) Limitation on the Reserve’s END to make the power(s) shut off when the character is unconscious.[/quote']

 

Blimey.

 

And...

 

Q: What is the effect of taking Charges on an Endurance Reserve?

 

A: Activating the Charge gives the character the defined amount of END that Phase. If he doesn’t use it all that Phase, the unused END “vanishes,†depriving him of the ability to use it (he could use another Charge next Phase to get more, of course).

 

Mind you these are both from the old FAQ - they may well be reconsidered and not included in the new one.

 

A sensible house rule might be to cap the total number of charges you can buy at 500 (the highest the table goes up to). There can't be many non-abusive constructions needing even that many charges in a day...

 

...oh and thanks to Gary for bringing this particular wrinkle in my perception of the order of things to my attention. :cheers

[prestidigitator]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Bit off topic, but stuff I didn't know (and don't agree with...)

 

Originally Posted by faq

Carrying this logic forward, a power drawing END from an Endurance Reserve wouldn’t shut off if the character were Knocked Out or Stunned. You could buy a Personal END (-1/2) Limitation on the Reserve’s END to make the power(s) shut off when the character is unconscious.

Blimey.

Yep. Yet another reason why End Reserve is more useful than ordinary End for less cost (although obviously there could be bad aspects to the Power staying on when you are Knocked Out, I think they probably don't balance the benefits).

[Trebuchet]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

The basic form of the abuse merely buys 1 googol charges on a 20 End Reserve for a total of 4 real points. No limitations here at all' date=' and now all your powers have 0 End cost.[/quote']Your math is off. According to HDv2, it's only 3 points. I cut and pasted the below directly from Hero Designer:

 

Endurance Reserve (20 END, 1 REC) Reserve: , Googleplex Charges (+0) (3 Active Points)

 

In fact, if you cut the Recovery to 0 you can get it for only 2 points.

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

A sensible house rule might be to cap the total number of charges you can buy at 500 (the highest the table goes up to). There can't be many non-abusive constructions needing even that many charges in a day...

 

Gary's construct still works, though. How many times will you need to access your END reserve in a day? 500 phases should be plenty.

[Gary]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Your math is off. According to HDv2' date=' it's only [b']3[/b] points. I cut and pasted the below directly from Hero Designer:

 

Endurance Reserve (20 END, 1 REC) Reserve: , Googleplex Charges (+0) (3 Active Points)

 

In fact, if you cut the Recovery to 0 you can get it for only 2 points.

 

 

Googolplex charges should be +1.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Googolplex charges should be +1.

You're right. I just checked HDv2 and it shows +0 for everything that isn't an actual negative value.

 

Time to PM Dan.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

The advanced version of the End Reserve abuse combines both of these abuses. Your character who normally spends 20 End a phase now takes X10 End cost for all powers for a -4 cost break on everything. Now he buys a 200 End Reserve (20 active points)' date=' and makes it 1 googol charges that never recovers for a -1. Now for the price of 10 real points, the character gets a -4 cost break on everything and never has to worry about End.[/quote']

 

Never before have I said this, but I bow before your munchkin-fu!

Repped

[Mentor]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

The basic form of the abuse merely buys 1 googol charges on a 20 End Reserve for a total of 4 real points. No limitations here at all' date=' and now all your powers have 0 End cost.[/quote']

As GM, I would rule that there is no technology or magic that enables googal charges of any energy to be stored and moreover I would inform the player that they are trying to screw over the system and the campaign.

 

If the player in question balked and played rules lawyer, I would then explain that as GM, m decision is final and that common sense overrides any convoluted semantic interpretation of the rules as technically written, also per Steve Long in Hero 5th Edition.

 

I would also inform the individual, if they persisted, they would henceforth be referred to as the ex-player because anyone who wasn't doing this to have fun with our team by being an integral but cooperative part of a hero team was in the wrong campaign.

 

To repeat, it is the player attempting such a ridiculous ability unintended by the system which is abusive, not the framework set up by the rules which could not possibly anticipate every outrageous attempt at masturbating their ego rather than playing in a game.

[Gary]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

As GM, I would rule that there is no technology or magic that enables googal charges of any energy to be stored and moreover I would inform the player that they are trying to screw over the system and the campaign.

 

If the player in question balked and played rules lawyer, I would then explain that as GM, m decision is final and that common sense overrides any convoluted semantic interpretation of the rules as technically written, also per Steve Long in Hero 5th Edition.

 

I would also inform the individual, if they persisted, they would henceforth be referred to as the ex-player because anyone who wasn't doing this to have fun with our team by being an integral but cooperative part of a hero team was in the wrong campaign.

 

To repeat, it is the player attempting such a ridiculous ability unintended by the system which is abusive, not the framework set up by the rules which could not possibly anticipate every outrageous attempt at masturbating their ego rather than playing in a game.

 

 

Thank you for proving my point, that there are things built into the system that are 'too good'.

[Mentor]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Thank you for proving my point' date=' that there are things built into the system that are 'too good'.[/quote']

I believe the term you are looking for is versitile. The rules are merely the nuts and bolts. The GM and players build the campaign. Nuclear fission can create electrical power for a city or destroy a city. it is all in how they are used that determines whether or not it is 'good'.

[Fuzzy Gnome]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

You're right. I just checked HDv2 and it shows +0 for everything that isn't an actual negative value.

 

Time to PM Dan.

Makes sense to me. END Reserve doesn't cost any END to use, so no amount of Charges should be an Advantage. IDHMBIFOM and stuff.

[Gary]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

I believe the term you are looking for is versitile. The rules are merely the nuts and bolts. The GM and players build the campaign. Nuclear fission can create electrical power for a city or destroy a city. it is all in how they are used that determines whether or not it is 'good'.

 

 

Nope, this is a specific case of a broken rule, and you did exactly as I told Dr A what any reasonable GM would do. House rule it away. Or tear up the character sheet.

[Mentor]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Nope' date=' this is a specific case of a broken rule, and you did exactly as I told Dr A what any reasonable GM would do. House rule it away. Or tear up the character sheet. [/quote']

We are at an impasse. I, along with the metarules section of 5th Ed, IMO, consider the character concept, SFX and campaign balance as integral a part of the PC build as the semantic and mathematical correctness of the spaces on the Character sheet. Thus no rule in the book is beyond the scrutiny of the GM in determining whether a power or ability is or is not abusive in a given situation. Even a great power is never inherently abusive unless used inappropriately in context of the campaign.

[Gary]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

We are at an impasse. I' date=' along with the metarules section of 5th Ed, IMO, consider the character concept, SFX and campaign balance as integral a part of the PC build as the semantic and mathematical correctness of the spaces on the Character sheet. Thus no rule in the book is beyond the scrutiny of the GM in determining whether a power or ability is or is not abusive in a given situation. Even a great power is never inherently abusive unless used inappropriately in context of the campaign.[/quote']

 

 

How are we at an impasse? You agreed with me that having all powers with 0 End for a cost of 4 points was broken, and you house ruled it away and said you would ban any player who would try it. At what point are we disagreeing?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Gary's construct still works' date=' though. How many times will you need to access your END reserve in a day? 500 phases should be plenty.[/quote']

 

His massive savings are predicated on the charges never recovering, so they wouldn't be back tomorrow. If someone was daft enough to spend +1 on 500 charges when they could have had an infinite number of goes all at 0 END for +1/2, more fool them.

 

As many people have pointed out already though: it ain't gonna happen in my game, so it ain't really a problem.

 

Mind you half of what we go on about ain't really a problem, but that's never stopped us before.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Second' date=' specifically, does anyone but me feel that Focus is WAY too much of a price break? I mean, it may be my style of play, but the benefits of extra points to spend tends to FAR outweigh the occasional nuissance of not having access to a power.[/quote']I agree 100%. By rights an OIF should be unavailable one third of the time. I have never seen this happen in any game. It's always available more frequently.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

How are we at an impasse? You agreed with me that having all powers with 0 End for a cost of 4 points was broken' date=' and you house ruled it away and said you would ban any player who would try it. At what point are we disagreeing?[/quote']A GM's decision on a specific application is not a "house rule" for one thing. A "house rule" is a formal or semiformal list of changes or additions to the official rules in a particular campaign. "No attacks above 60 AP" is a house rule. "I won't allow you to have that Power/Advantage combination" is a GM's ruling.

 

In our campaign a player who presented such a character would be banned not because he'd figured out a clever way to abuse the rules, but rather because he tried to actually use it in our game. We don't need that kind of player. We would never invite such a player into our game in the first place, and if one did somehow slip through the cracks he would be swiftly uninvited. We've played with quite enough rules rapists and powergamers, thank you.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

A GM's decision on a specific application is not a "house rule" for one thing. A "house rule" is a formal or semiformal list of changes or additions to the official rules in a particular campaign. "No attacks above 60 AP" is a house rule. "I won't allow you to have that Power/Advantage combination" is a GM's ruling.

 

In our campaign a player who presented such a character would be banned not because he'd figured out a clever way to abuse the rules, but rather because he tried to actually use it in our game. We don't need that kind of player. We would never invite such a player into our game in the first place, and if one did somehow slip through the cracks he would be swiftly uninvited. We've played with quite enough rules rapists and powergamers, thank you.

 

Hmm, don't be too hasty. I knew this mega power-gamer once, always after the strongest the best etc etc. One time I caved in and gave it to him: we were playing DnD and I gave him an 18/00 STR anti-paladin. He loved it, and, oddly, played it really well and in character without the creationist power gaming spilling over into play.

 

Not saying you'll be so lucky, but.....

[Trebuchet]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Googolplex charges should be +1.

Dan Simon has replied to my inquiry:

 

Not sure on a page ref...I know it initially came up in TUV....and was confirmed by Steve.

 

The basic premise is that you don't get anything for it. If you have a Power that is 0-END without Charges, you can use it 1,000,000,000+ times per day (if desired). If you put even 1,000,000,000 Charges on it, you're not gaining a single thing from the Modifier -- it's not an Advantage.

 

If the power costs END normally, however, you gain the benefit of it becoming 0-END, and so the cap is placed at +1. Why +1, when 0-END is +1/2, I have no idea....but them's the rules.

So my Hero Designer was correct, and that loophole costs even less than you thought.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

Dan Simon has replied to my inquiry:

 

So my Hero Designer was correct, and that loophole costs even less than you thought.

 

I'm not sure that's correct, though I don't have the book in front of me. +1 is the cap as the 0 END cost for autofire. Logically, if +0 is the cap for powerswhich cost no END, +1/2 should be the cap for powers which cost the normal +1/2 to get to 0 END.

 

I think a better answer would be to add -1/2 to the Charges limitation if the power costs 0 END by default, and cap the advantage at +1/2 (+1 if the power is Autofire).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Focus = Too Great a Price Break?

 

His massive savings are predicated on the charges never recovering' date=' so they wouldn't be back tomorrow. If someone was daft enough to spend +1 on 500 charges when they could have had an infinite number of goes all at 0 END for +1/2, more fool them.[/quote']

 

OK, let's go over this one more time. I buy a 120 point END battery with 500 charges. That costs 24 points (12 x 2).

 

I can activate it 500 times per day, each time having 50 END accessible. How much END can you spend in one phase? Well, if you have a 12d6 attack and 30 inches of movement, you spend up to 12 END. You can make those both 10x END (from the Battery) and be able to use then for 500 phases. And you don't spend any acual END to do it since it al comes from your battery.

 

Character pays 120 points for 12d6 EB, 30" flight costs (ignoring the possibility of frameworks) and spends 12 END each segment he uses them. Making them 0 ED boosts the cost to 180. Character with 10x END on each of those powers pays 12 points each, plus 24 for the Battery = 48 points. [Of course, the book specifically cautions about END battery combined with Extra END]

 

As many people have pointed out already though: it ain't gonna happen in my game, so it ain't really a problem.

 

Mind you half of what we go on about ain't really a problem, but that's never stopped us before.

 

Absolutely (on both conts). However, what this exercise really demonstrates is that the Hero rules are more an art than a science. They can't just be blindly applied. Judgement must be exercised in their application.

 

This, more than anything, is what makes Hero a complex game. It's able to do anything, and some "anythings" are broken in some cases. The system places the onus on the gamer to assess what is broken for their games, and change or ban these constructs. Other systems try to do this by ensuring there are no broken abilities or combinations, issuing errata and updating eitions. Hero relies instead on judgement of the gamers. Another reason Hero is a high end RPG product.

 

3e D&D almopst challenges players to find "broken" feats/abilities and feat combinations of same. When you find them, you get a powerful character. Hero goes the opposite approach - when you find them, you are expected to change or ban them to keep the game in balance.