The status of normals in the Superhero genre

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: The status of normals in the Superhero genre

 

Well said, IJ. If players just keep in mind that normals start at 8's rather than 10's, it's a lot easier to feel superhuman with lower numbers than some seem to feel is necessary. My MA PC Zl'f is a 4'10" tall woman with a 15 STR. That's probably as strong physically as a professional heavyweight boxer or a typical NFL linebacker; and for that reason I consider her strength to be superhuman precisely because she's so much stronger than a normal person that small would be; which realistically would probably be a 4 or 5. What the heck is "normal" about a woman smaller than a typical 12 year old girl being able to lift 440 pounds (without Pushing!) and do dozens of one-armed chinups or pushups? (According to my 2003 almanac, the Olympic weight lifting record for a woman Zl'f's size (under 105.5 pounds) is 435 pounds!)

 

People need to keep track of the proper benchmarks; which is normals, not other by definition better-than-normal characters. Power is always relative; not absolute. If 20+ is "Olympic level" with any Primary Characteristic; then no brick with a 23 DEX and 4 SPD need feel clumsy or slow and no MA with a 25 STR should feel weak in a world populated almost entirely by SPD 2, STR 8 people.

 

I'm not 100% (since I think in kilos), but isn't that 440 pounds figure the "maximum possible weight she could budge, period" limit, not the weightlifting limit?

 

[i'd put the boxer or 'backer at 18 or so, I guess]

 

DEX 23 is 'average cheetah', and is about as much above 'average wolf' as 'average wolf' is above 'average human'. Superheroic characters, even sans powers, are generally that quick. They _can _ deal with that.

 

It's definately not clumsy, sure; it's Conanesque grace. Still, they can separately have disadvantages to reflect strength control issues, or whatever. (Remember; most superheroes [and villains] don't just sit there and take it; they can meaningfully dodge, which is no mean feat of agility).

 

Outclassing the normals is nice, but outclassing (say) animals? That's something a superhero needs to do.

[Trebuchet]

Re: The status of normals in the Superhero genre

 

I'm not 100% (since I think in kilos), but isn't that 440 pounds figure the "maximum possible weight she could budge, period" limit, not the weightlifting limit?

 

[i'd put the boxer or 'backer at 18 or so, I guess]

 

DEX 23 is 'average cheetah', and is about as much above 'average wolf' as 'average wolf' is above 'average human'. Superheroic characters, even sans powers, are generally that quick. They _can _ deal with that.

 

It's definately not clumsy, sure; it's Conanesque grace. Still, they can separately have disadvantages to reflect strength control issues, or whatever. (Remember; most superheroes [and villains] don't just sit there and take it; they can meaningfully dodge, which is no mean feat of agility).

 

Outclassing the normals is nice, but outclassing (say) animals? That's something a superhero needs to do.

IIRC, STR's lifting ability is defined in 5e as "how much the character can lift, stagger a couple of steps, and drop." I can't think of a better description of what a weightlifter does. (And I could make a pretty good case that these types of extraordinary athletes are in fact Pushing their STR.)

 

Having both wrestled (and fought) with dogs, and watched innumerable nature special on wolves, I would argue that wolves and dogs are by no means inherently more dexterous than a healthy athletic human. In the wild, wolves get plenty of exercise and don't grow fat and lazy. I suspect hunter/gatherer humans were in just as good shape. Wolves often seem to have fast reactions because they have sharp senses and in a tense situation are essentially "holding an action" in order to react to a threat. I would rate wolves as having a DEX of 8 - 13; which is certainly no better than a trained soldier or athlete.

 

I can accept cheetahs and big cats as having good DEX (18-20 seems reasonable), but I don't think they're substantially better than a acrobatic human. Quickness is part of all cats' schtick, be they tabby or tiger.

 

And certainly any good demibrick is stronger than an elephant.

[Guest C--]

Re: The status of normals in the Superhero genre

 

I follow college football fairly religiously. A 440 lb lift "pick up the weight a few inches and stagger a few steps" is not that much. A few years ago I heard a stat that the entire football team (including the punters and kickers) at TCU could bench press over 400 pounds. They not only lifted that weight, but they could all bench press it two dozen-plus times. And that's at the college level.

 

A good high school athlete could have a 15 Str. A good college football player would be around 20. Pro players? 23-25.

 

Inputjack, comics characters, even trained humans, routinely perform feats that normal humans in the real world can't match. Captain America snaps inch-thick iron chains. Batman rips up through the floor of a under-construction building in Dark Knight Returns and pulls a guy under. Hawkeye's arrows hit harder than bullets because the pull on his bow is so great. That's because comics characters have their roots in the pulp stories, where Doc Savage pulls nails out of boards with his fingers. Don't tell me that's normal.

[gewing]

Re: The status of normals in the Superhero genre

 

In "Who's Who" and "Marvel Universe", Batman, Green Arrow, Hawkeye, Black Widow, and Punisher are -all- listed as having:

 

"Normal strength for someone of their height and build who engages in regular, intense physical exercise".

 

NOWHERE in the comics do we see them "outlift weightlifters", or "out acrobatic acrobats". They may come close to those benchmarks, and most of the characters mentioned above -are- "Olympic level gymnasts". But they dont do things that are patently impossible. They tend to know when to dive behind cover, thats all

 

In fact, there are several -other- non-super-powered types who are stronger, or faster, or more agile, than anyone mentioned above, with the possible exception of Black Widow. And some of them DONT wear costumes. ( Ubu, Rhas Al Ghul's bodyguard in DC, to name an example, was -demonstrably- stronger than Batman. Stronger...slower...dumber...)

 

So I cant agree with you on that, Whamme Whamme.

 

I -do- agree with you that they tend to be alot luckier than most normal people. After all, anyone whos read a book based on a true story, and then researched the actual events, usually finds that the protagonist met a pointlessly sticky end either during, or immediately after, the events of the story. ("Prisoner of Zenda" was based on a true story. The person the "actor" character was based on died of tuberculosis about a year afterwards......or at least....it -looked- like tuberculosis....BUM BUM BUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMM!)

 

Also, I -never- claimed that the scale that my friends and I game on was "supported by the published materials". In fact, it was those very published materials that led us to try to establish a more cinematically believable scale consistent with itself, than the one put forth by the writeups in the original "Enemies" and "Enemies II", and so forth. A Player was trying to write up a Batman type character, with the NCM disad, and just couldnt fathom how much beyond the doubling point his Dex would have to be to even be competetive.

 

That was back in 3rd Edition, but the core concept of our scale hasnt changed. Start with semi-realistic people (even a 10 STR lifts about twice what it should, but roll with it in that case), and scale up gradually from there. In the (literally) 15 years weve been using that scale, not one single Player has ever complained about feeling inadequate compared to Normals, once they had a feel for the game. (Vetching in the first session, before youve seen what you can do, doesnt count).

 

Finally, a player -could- concievable buy a 50 STR while having the Normal Characteristic Maxima disad...but NONE of our Refs would ever allow it to happen.

 

And neither should yours

 

 

In dean Shomshak's supers game, My character "Stalker" was one of the best martial artists on earth. He had a 23 dex, soon raised to 24. iirc he was speed 5.

 

Normals were a SIGNIFICANT problem.

[Trebuchet]

Re: The status of normals in the Superhero genre

 

I follow college football fairly religiously. A 440 lb lift "pick up the weight a few inches and stagger a few steps" is not that much. A few years ago I heard a stat that the entire football team (including the punters and kickers) at TCU could bench press over 400 pounds. They not only lifted that weight' date=' but they could [i']all[/i] bench press it two dozen-plus times. And that's at the college level.

I did weight training when I was on my high school swim team, so I'm familiar with what's involved (and our school's strongest football player could benchpress over 360 pounds at age 17). It's considerably easier to bench press weights than it is to "clean and jerk" them because you're not fighting lateral motion, especially since most if not all schools are now using weight machines to increase safety. Olympic weight lifting is lifting barbells, it's simply not the same thing as bench pressing weights in a machine for strength training. You think any of those TCU football players are lifting 400+ pounds over their heads? I seriously doubt it.

 

A good high school athlete could have a 15 Str. A good college football player would be around 20. Pro players? 23-25.

Those are males. Normal women in Hero should have a STR of 4 - 7, not 8. We've given them an 8 STR in the interest of game balance and political correctness, but it's not realistic. The average adult woman has the same upper body strength as a 12 year old boy. A 15 STR for a tiny 101 lb. superheroine is still comfortably superhuman, especially since she could Push to 25 STR and thus lift 1760 pounds, or 721 pounds more than the heavyweight (231+ pound male) men's world weight lifting record!

 

As I said previously, power is relative.

[Southern Cross]

Re: The status of normals in the Superhero genre

 

If Mike Surbrook's writeups are accurate,a 23 DEX & SPD 5 is the same DEX & SPD as Paladin Alexander Anderson,Inuyasha & Ryoga Hibiki.(Arucard gets DEX 24 ,but still has a SPD of 5).

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: The status of normals in the Superhero genre

 

IIRC' date=' STR's lifting ability is defined in 5e as "how much the character can lift, stagger a couple of steps, and drop." I can't think of a better description of what a weightlifter does. (And I could make a pretty good case that these types of extraordinary athletes are in fact Pushing their STR.) [/quote']

 

Wieghtlifters lift higher than you can get at maximum. It's lift _a few feet off the ground_, stagger, and drop. Getting it to chest height (powerlifting), harder, above that, even harder.

 

 

That said, even under my interpretation your character would still be extraordinary, being at least close to the world record for her weight class - but that's not superhuman. (Heck, neither is being slightly _above_ the world record; records do get broken).

 

Having both wrestled (and fought) with dogs, and watched innumerable nature special on wolves, I would argue that wolves and dogs are by no means inherently more dexterous than a healthy athletic human. In the wild, wolves get plenty of exercise and don't grow fat and lazy. I suspect hunter/gatherer humans were in just as good shape. Wolves often seem to have fast reactions because they have sharp senses and in a tense situation are essentially "holding an action" in order to react to a threat. I would rate wolves as having a DEX of 8 - 13; which is certainly no better than a trained soldier or athlete.

 

Interesting. That's not where the actual values are set (iirc of course) however.

 

I can accept cheetahs and big cats as having good DEX (18-20 seems reasonable), but I don't think they're substantially better than a acrobatic human. Quickness is part of all cats' schtick, be they tabby or tiger.

 

And certainly any good demibrick is stronger than an elephant.

 

IRL a big cat can virtually always get the jump (literally or metaphorically) on a human being. We have to outthink them (hold an action/surprise them) to have a real chance, even a human with amazingly good reaction times.

 

Anyone who _could_ outquick them could well have simply bought up their DEX above NCM [in game terms] - and note that most big cats are DEX 20, it's just the fastest that's a 23 [of course, that's an average; cats have their extraordinary inividuals too, I suppose).

 

18 DEX is 'slow' brick level - it still represents a reaction time that lets them have a chance against someone who really is fast [normal dex, even with superstrength, would be likely to not be able to hit even WITH a huge pole as a weapon; it takes a fair bit of speed to do what bricks do).

 

Few superhumans end up inferior to normal people or even trained soldiers in the reactions department. Champions standards are reasonable enough.

[Trebuchet]

Re: The status of normals in the Superhero genre

 

That said' date=' even under my interpretation your character would still be extraordinary, being at least close to the world record for her weight class - but that's not superhuman. (Heck, neither is being slightly _above_ the world record; records do get broken).[/quote']I'm cool with her being "only" extraordinary. After all, her real superpowers are in the realm of agility (SPD 9; 43 DEX), not strength. But in relation to 8 STR normals (male or female) she's extraordinarily strong, if only arguably superhuman. Few people would guess how strong she is just by looking at her. You'd expect a heavyweight boxer to be able to lift hundreds of pounds, not a tiny woman less than 5 feet tall.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: The status of normals in the Superhero genre

 

I'm cool with her being "only" extraordinary. After all' date=' her real superpowers are in the realm of agility (SPD 9; 43 DEX), not strength. But in relation to 8 STR normals (male or female) she's extraordinarily strong, if only arguably superhuman. Few people would guess how strong she is just by looking at her. You'd expect a heavyweight boxer to be able to lift hundreds of pounds, not a tiny woman less than 5 feet tall.[/quote']

 

That, I think we all can agree on.

 

Z'lf is cool.

 

Even if someone needs to give the poor thing a vowel.

[Trebuchet]

Re: The status of normals in the Superhero genre

 

That, I think we all can agree on.

 

Z'lf is cool.

 

Even if someone needs to give the poor thing a vowel.

Thanks.

 

The chronic shortage of vowels has plagued the Slavic nations for centuries, despite recent attempts by the Western nations to export tons of emergency vowels. A similar problem inflicts Wales.

[Guest C--]

Re: The status of normals in the Superhero genre

 

I did weight training when I was on my high school swim team' date=' so I'm familiar with what's involved (and our school's strongest football player could benchpress over 360 pounds at age 17). It's considerably easier to bench press weights than it is to "clean and jerk" them because you're not fighting lateral motion, especially since most if not all schools are now using weight machines to increase safety. Olympic weight lifting is lifting barbells, it's simply not the same thing as bench pressing weights in a machine for strength training. You think any of those TCU football players are lifting 400+ pounds over their heads? I seriously doubt it.[/quote']

 

You're not doing a "clean and jerk". You're doing a "get off the ground and stagger a few steps". I lifted up my 250 lb grandpa when I was like 10 years old ("Hey, papa, look how strong I am!" lift/stagger/crash!) and took about two steps. That's about in keeping with a 5 Str 10 year old.

 

Those are males. Normal women in Hero should have a STR of 4 - 7, not 8. We've given them an 8 STR in the interest of game balance and political correctness, but it's not realistic. The average adult woman has the same upper body strength as a 12 year old boy. A 15 STR for a tiny 101 lb. superheroine is still comfortably superhuman, especially since she could Push to 25 STR and thus lift 1760 pounds, or 721 pounds more than the heavyweight (231+ pound male) men's world weight lifting record!

 

Oh, completely agree. Although I don't think that pushing should generally be considered when you're considering world records and such--we'd need a comprehensive lifting chart (bench press is Str - x, clean and jerk is Str - y, etc) before that becomes useful. And when you talk about pushing, you get into things like a straight-10s normal breaking world records in sprinting and weightlifting.

[Southern Cross]

Re: The status of normals in the Superhero genre

 

Well,that just means that Real Life uses the same Pushing rules as Heroic Campaigns.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: The status of normals in the Superhero genre

 

Well' date='that just means that Real Life uses the same Pushing rules as Heroic Campaigns.[/quote']

 

...or none at all. After all, RL is even less 'sperpowered' than Heroic Campaigns...

[Kristopher]

Re: The status of normals in the Superhero genre

 

Actually' date='now that I think about it,I'd better give an explanation of why I prefer Silver Age comics to Iron Age comics-Iron Age comics seem to believe that people wallow in their disadvantages,while Silver Age comics imply that people should alt least TRY to overcome their disadvantages.[/quote']

 

There's some truth to that statement.

[Trebuchet]

Re: The status of normals in the Superhero genre

 

And when you talk about pushing' date=' you get into things like a straight-10s normal breaking world records in sprinting and weightlifting.[/quote']I don't think so.

 

I think it's safe to say that world record holders and Olympic-class athletes are by definition superior to the "average" man or woman, and for such characters I think some Characteristics in the upper teens or low 20s are not unreasonable, along with appropriate Skill levels.

 

I assumed my Olympic-class gymnast PC Zl'f had a DEX 23 and a 17- Acrobatics roll even before she acquired her superpowers, and I built her accordingly. And even that was only good enough to gain her two Bronze medals in the '96 Olympic Games in her back story. Other world class athletes would IMO be along similar lines in their own specialty. I'd have absolutely no problem with the world champion weightlifter having a STR of 20 or 25. I would have a problem with him having a 20 DEX or a SPD 5.

[input.jack]

Re: The status of normals in the Superhero genre

 

Whamme Whamme, I think that you and I have very different ideas about whats "realistic". I think that we percieve the scale of whats possible very differently, and I dont see any way of changing your perceptions in as limited a forum as this. (Meaning posts on a board, as opposed to face to face dialogue).

 

Yes, we originally came up with our scale back when 3rd Edition was out. That DOESNT mean we arent playing 5th Edition, as you implied. It just means that the scale for heroes, compared to normals, hasnt changed for us in that time. The scale of "most normal people average 8's, competent normal people average 10's" -also- hasnt changed, so the fact that our scale was changed "back when" does not, in any way, make it any less relevant. It also allows a noteworthy normal NPC with 13's or 15's to actually be USEFUL to the PC's.

 

Trebuchet seems to understand what Im saying. The reason a good Ref wouldnt allow a PC into the campaign who was supposed to be a "normal human", and yet has a 50 STR, even after paying to exceed the doubling point, is because no matter what your take on the universe, no normal, unmodified Human could EVER lift 25 tons over his head. Ever. Our tissue strength and bone density isnt sufficient to ever allow that. That just defies physics, even for a cinematic reality.

 

Scale isnt about whats affordable or what you can purchase "within the rules". Its about setting a reasonable yardstick for your game and sticking to it.

 

A friend of mine dislikes being told hes made his character too strong or too fast for our games, but he does it alot. And often has to rewrite his charatcers before the characters are allowed into the game. He has tried putting a 25 STR on a five foot eight, lean build character, and didnt like it when I told him to try more like a 15, to make the character susprisingly strong. (The campaign in question had no superpowers in it. All characters were normal people). I finally got it across to him with this example.

 

If you see two people walking down the street, and one of them is built like Woody Allen, and the other like Arnold Schwartzenegger, if you come to find that the one that looks like Woody Allen has 5 more STR than Arnie, then the world has completely lost its sense of scale.

 

If you want to play in campaigns where a "normal Human superhero" has to bypass the Normal Characteristics Maximums disad in order to afford to be able to buy DEX and SPEED high enough to be competitive, thats your right as a Player. Im not saying you shouldnt or cant. But I AM saying that those campaigns miss out on some really good material by limiting the people who can be even moderately effective to those in costumes.

 

In our campaigns, our Heroes are -just- as effective as those in mainstream comics. In fact, if I were to try to find a "feel equivalent" for our games Id say it was probably akin to the WB Animated series', like "Batman" or "Justice League". And -just- like in those series, there have been times when normal, unmodified Human NPC's have played a major role in the course of events. Cops have distracted a villian long enough for a PC to take that crucial Recovery (and then had to dive for cover as their squad car exploded from the plasma bolt). Enemy spies have fought dark vigilantes on warehouse rooftops. Heroes have called PAX (the local SHIELD equivalent) for fire support to keep the VIPER-like troops at bay while the heroes took on the supervillians they brought with them. Players have formed close bonds with the NPC's around them, because they see those NPC's as real people who have qualities to be admired. Heck, in a couple of cases, some of the PC's have invited experienced NPC s to join them! That sort of thing is -impossible- in a world where the "typical superhero" is written up with stats so far above what a "normal Human" can attain that the character would have to justify adding 10 to their DEX just to survive being with the PC's.

 

In campaigns where the average DEX and SPEED are cranked up so far that normals are insignificant, the long-term result is that the Players, -along- with their characters, tend to eventually come to look down upon them. Even, in some cases, resent them. Because the world to them becomes populated by weak little mewling creatures who are incapable of taking care of themselves.

 

If heroes cant be challenged by the world around them....what makes them so heroic?

[Trebuchet]

Re: The status of normals in the Superhero genre

 

 

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to input.jack again."

 

I couldn't possibly have expressed it better. Normals have to be as competent, in at least some circumstances, as the heroes are, or the heroes lose not only all sense of scale but their very humanity.

 

In our campaign we try to define our characters as much by their friendships and hobbies as by their powers. I gave all the players in our campaign a short questionaire about their characters, and the one filled out by Blackjack, who runs Silhouette, our team brick and scientist, has a couple of amusing and I think relevant answers:

 

9) What would your character be doing with her life if she had never had her powers? Spending more time in the lab...

 

10) What would your character do with her life if she were to lose her powers? Spend more time in the lab.

 

Sarah Richmond, AKA Silhouette, defines herself first and foremost as a physicist, not as a superheroine. The density control powers are nice, but they are not who she is. Who she is is the 2003 Nobel Prize winner in Physics, the expert piano player, the hardcore science fiction fan, the socially timid geek who gets dragged shopping or horseback riding by her best friend, Elena Yurievna. Powers don't make characters; normal life does.

[Guest C--]

Re: The status of normals in the Superhero genre

 

In campaigns where the average DEX and SPEED are cranked up so far that normals are insignificant, the long-term result is that the Players, -along- with their characters, tend to eventually come to look down upon them. Even, in some cases, resent them. Because the world to them becomes populated by weak little mewling creatures who are incapable of taking care of themselves.

 

I've never found this to be the case.

 

If heroes cant be challenged by the world around them....what makes them so heroic?

 

The fact that they save the day, when they don't have to.

[nexus]

Re: The status of normals in the Superhero genre

 

I don't know where I stand on them matter actually. I've run games where the PCs are Godlike and games where the only thing that set them "above" the rest of population was a power or two. Both are interesting, but very different feels for a supers game.

 

The PCs in both cases were heroes not so much because they were challenged by the world around them (and the Godlike PCs were challenged, just not by the "mundane" world around them) but because they were willing to fight, sacrifice and make a difference not just coast on their abilties or use them for personal gain. In the godlike games normal people didn't become weak, mewling creatures because they just coudn't physically stand up to the villains the heroes fought. They had there own lives, there own problems and the PCs weren't there to wipe their noses and hold their hands 24 hours a day. Most of the time the world kept right on spinning regardless its just that when the big stuff went down someone more than human was needed.

[input.jack]

Re: The status of normals in the Superhero genre

 

*smiles* I never said the populace -became- weak, mewling creatures...

 

Only that the Supers can start to see them that way

 

C--, if you havent run into this in your experience, then Im glad to hear it. Because Ive seen it happen in several campaigns, and its never a good thing. Im glad youve been spared it.

 

The point about heroes being heroic because theyre willing to sacrifice for the greater good is...of course...*ahem* dead on the money. Youre absolutely right. But Trebuchet's point about the supers losing their humanity, and losing touch -with- humanity, is the danger that Im talking about the characters facing.

 

More importantly to me, though, is the loss of opportunity for roleplay and interaction with normals on an even footing. It sounds to me as thought Trebuchet and I have similar gaming styles and experiences. Our games, too, value -who- the character is more than what he can do, in the long run. In fact, for most of our games, it can be three or four sessions between combats, because the Players are all out doing RP stuff with NPC's, and each other. Our Players generally agree that the powers are neat...but -who- the character is, their personality and outlook, is whats ultimately important. My best friend has re-booted a character a couple of times (got the character going...game ended suddenly...new game opened up...viola! There she is again!). Im sure you know people who do this, from time to time. But what bears mentioning here is that, first time around, the character was a sort of "psychic temporal manipulator", effectively a speedster. Now shes a regenerating martial artist with enhanced senses (and technically alot less powerful).

 

But my friend is -just- as happy with her in this game as in the previous one. In fact, a bit more so. Because the personality and overall "feel" of the character were always the most important thing. The power set was always secondary to the character concept, and could be "peeled off" and replaced with a new powerset as circumstances dictated, as far as the Player was concerned.

 

Again, Im not saying that you "cant have that" with any other scale between normals and supers. Im just saying that its a darned sight easier to achieve when the gap between normals and supers isnt insurmountably large

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: The status of normals in the Superhero genre

 

Whamme Whamme' date=' I think that you and I have very different ideas about whats "realistic". I think that we percieve the scale of whats possible very differently, and I dont see any way of changing your perceptions in as limited a forum as this. (Meaning posts on a board, as opposed to face to face dialogue). [/quote']

 

I doubt you'd have more luck face to face, except insofar as I'd be likely to just give up the conversation and go find somethign else to do.

 

Unless your plan is to pull a gun and force me to sign a document that says I agree with you.

 

Yes, we originally came up with our scale back when 3rd Edition was out. That DOESNT mean we arent playing 5th Edition, as you implied. It just means that the scale for heroes, compared to normals, hasnt changed for us in that time.

 

But how much STR 8 (or 10) lifts _has_ changed. A character with the same STR value in 4th and 5th editions loses a significant portion of their lifting ability. That is a rules change.

 

If you didn't increase the actual STR values to match, the effective STR values dropped.

 

The scale of "most normal people average 8's, competent normal people average 10's" -also- hasnt changed, so the fact that our scale was changed "back when" does not, in any way, make it any less relevant. It also allows a noteworthy normal NPC with 13's or 15's to actually be USEFUL to the PC's.

 

A PC having 5 more poitns of DEX suddenly means they never need anyone to shout "look out!", provide a distraction, or ask for advice? That's an interesting logical leap.

 

And the scale has changed.

 

Trebuchet seems to understand what Im saying. The reason a good

 

Please note that you are being insulting, condescending, and acting as though your way of playing is the only possible valid way.

 

It isn't. And that's the _nice_ way of putting it.

 

Ref wouldnt allow a PC into the campaign who was supposed to be a "normal human", and yet has a 50 STR, even after paying to exceed the doubling point, is because no matter what your take on the universe, no normal, unmodified Human could EVER lift 25 tons over his head. Ever. Our tissue strength and bone density isnt sufficient to ever allow that. That just defies physics, even for a cinematic reality.

 

Focused Ki? Built like a truck and the author doesn't realize exactly how heavy the object they included in the story was, so hte cl- homage - has to be that strong? Playing in an inherently unrealistic genre? In this world, normal human limits are actually only a guideline, not a rule?

 

You don't even know _why_ the character has a 50 STR.

 

And none of those arguments apply to (say) PRE 50, or INT 45, or EGO 40, or....

 

"Normal" human superhumans, in the comics and comic derived media, often end up being better than those WITH applicable superpowers at various things.

 

Scale isnt about whats affordable or what you can purchase "within the rules". Its about setting a reasonable yardstick for your game and sticking to it.

 

Which you've done. None of this changes the fact that NCM and stats above 20 are perfectly legal. What you have _actually_ done is said, arbitrarily, that stats above 20 are too high for a human.

 

This is a drastic reduction in the game. And it is still valid FOR YOUR GAME, but your game is incredibly low in regards to where it sets the bar compared to other games and the official product. The idea that a 'normal human' cannot have DEX 23 (or 30) is entirely a house rule of yours, and as such, _is_ wrong in terms of what an appropriate value is in the Hero System.

 

A friend of mine dislikes being told hes made his character too strong or too fast for our games, but he does it alot. And often has to rewrite his charatcers before the characters are allowed into the game. He has tried putting a 25 STR on a five foot eight, lean build character, and didnt like it when I told him to try more like a 15, to make the character susprisingly strong. (The campaign in question had no superpowers in it. All characters were normal people). I finally got it across to him with this example.

 

If you see two people walking down the street, and one of them is built like Woody Allen, and the other like Arnold Schwartzenegger, if you come to find that the one that looks like Woody Allen has 5 more STR than Arnie, then the world has completely lost its sense of scale.

 

Woody Allen? He's fairly weedy, isn't he? Off the top of my head, I can't picture him.

 

It's possible. Unlikely, but there are some very strong lightly built people and some startlingly weak people with seemingly muscular builds.

 

A strength 25 lightly built person, however, is indeed almost always not appropriate for a game without powers.

 

Of course, Champions is not often a game without powers. It is a game about implausible people, and often the most implausible people are the ones referred to "only a man".

 

If you want to play in campaigns where a "normal Human superhero" has to bypass the Normal Characteristics Maximums disad in order to afford to be able to buy DEX and SPEED high enough to be competitive, thats your right as a Player. Im not saying you shouldnt or cant. But I AM saying that those campaigns miss out on some really good material by limiting the people who can be even moderately effective to those in costumes.

 

No, they really don't. All the DEX and SPD in the world isn't a substitute for decent tactics and planning.

 

And a superhero is (and I think this might even be in the actualy rules) NOT BOUND BY NORMAL CHARACTERISTIC MAXIMA. That is not actually a debateable point. Your house rule might be the greatest thing to hit hero since (before?) megascale.

 

I've had super PC's with dexes ranging from 11 to, uhm... 38? 43?

 

But when they had the low dex values, it was in a setting explicitly _not_ like a comic book, where the Pc's _were_ 'realistic' people with powers.

 

Get your physics out of my comic book game.

 

In our campaigns, our Heroes are -just- as effective as those in mainstream comics. In fact, if I were to try to find a "feel equivalent" for our games Id say it was probably akin to the WB Animated series', like "Batman" or "Justice League". And -just- like in those series, there have been times when normal, unmodified Human NPC's have played a major role in the course of events. Cops have distracted a villian long enough for a PC to take that crucial Recovery (and then had to dive for cover as their squad car exploded from the plasma bolt). Enemy spies have fought dark vigilantes on warehouse rooftops. Heroes have called PAX (the local SHIELD equivalent) for fire support to keep the VIPER-like troops at bay while the heroes took on the supervillians they brought with them. Players have formed close bonds with the NPC's around them, because they see those NPC's as real people who have qualities to be admired. Heck, in a couple of cases, some of the PC's have invited experienced NPC s to join them! That sort of thing is -impossible- in a world where the "typical superhero" is written up with stats so far above what a "normal Human" can attain that the character would have to justify adding 10 to their DEX just to survive being with the PC's.

 

No, they wouldn't need it to survive. They'd need it to do the kinds of things actual superheroic PC's do. Normal people don't survive hails of gunfire without a lot of luck.

 

They can, however stay out of the way quite well.

 

In campaigns where the average DEX and SPEED are cranked up so far that normals are insignificant, the long-term result is that the Players, -along- with their characters, tend to eventually come to look down upon them. Even, in some cases, resent them. Because the world to them becomes populated by weak little mewling creatures who are incapable of taking care of themselves.

 

If heroes cant be challenged by the world around them....what makes them so heroic?

 

Dude, it's YOUR game that has that kind of weakness, since onl;y superhumans can be effective (high DEX). In a game where "mere humans" can actually throw around gods and invulnerable aliens, humans actually look good. If an arrogant young 'cosmic' can get clean Ko'd by the martial artiast he just insulted, humans look pretty impressive.

 

And people who ARE severely outclassed by the cosmic threats, but do their best, rather than screaming 'help me, help me', are anything but weak and mewling. A character or player who judges someone solely by power is, well, shallow.

 

 

And your last sentence is just there as a bit of cheap rhetoric, so I'll disregard it.

[savagewolf]

Re: The status of normals in the Superhero genre

 

 

But can normals, including armies, agents, cops, security guards, mercenaries and so on take out supervillains on their own? No. Or only if the campaign is actually supposed to be about the supremacy of money and organised mass over remarkable individuals.

Well "terrible" Dan Turpin (A middle aged normal not-superpowered cop) did take down none less than Kalibak (one of Darkseid's sons- power level the same as Orion) in the classic New Gods " the death wish of Terrible Turpin" by Jack Kirby. to quote Turpin : "King Kong on a rooftop is no more deadly than a punk with a gun... what it matters is give more than you receive". It can be done.

 

And if it could not ...Lex Luthor would not be enemy n.1 of Superman.

[Trebuchet]

Re: The status of normals in the Superhero genre

 

The fact that they save the day' date=' when they don't have to.[/quote']As my co-GM Mentor has pointed out on several occasions, superhero is a compound word. There are plenty of people out there IRL who are just as heroic as comic book characters; and regularly risk their lives to protect others: Soldiers, undercover agents, police officers, firefighters, rescue workers, and many others. The difference is that these people don't have powers "far beyond those of mortal men" to keep them alive. IMO the "hero" portion of the word is far more important than the "super" portion. Without the heroic aspect, he's just a guy with weird powers. The firemen who raced into the burning World Trade Center buildings to rescue the occupants were no less heroes than Superman or Spider-Man. Nor was the man who carried a wheelchair-bound total stranger down 15 flights of stairs on September 11th. Heroism comes in many guises; some just wear flashier clothing.

[Guest C--]

Re: The status of normals in the Superhero genre

 

As my co-GM Mentor has pointed out on several occasions' date=' [i']superhero[/i] is a compound word. There are plenty of people out there IRL who are just as heroic as comic book characters; and regularly risk their lives to protect others: Soldiers, undercover agents, police officers, firefighters, rescue workers, and many others. The difference is that these people don't have powers "far beyond those of mortal men" to keep them alive. IMO the "hero" portion of the word is far more important than the "super" portion. Without the heroic aspect, he's just a guy with weird powers. The firemen who raced into the burning World Trade Center buildings to rescue the occupants were no less heroes than Superman or Spider-Man. Nor was the man who carried a wheelchair-bound total stranger down 15 flights of stairs on September 11th. Heroism comes in many guises; some just wear flashier clothing.

 

Yes, I agree. I'm just saying it's the saving of the day that makes them superheroes, and not superpowered thugs. Superman is a superhero because he uses his powers to help people, and not to hit on chicks.

[ZootSoot]

Re: The status of normals in the Superhero genre

 

What can a normal person do in a world of superpowered freaks? At the very least they can die on their feet, I have never seen that happen without the superheroes being forced into a re-evaluation of who they are and what they mean. No matter how big the gap between normals and supers, courage and honor can bridge it.

 

On the other hand, there is no cheaper, uglier hero origin than somebody being "rewarded" with powers for selflessness and heroism; when a normal dies (even if it is a bad death) give them the dignity of letting them stay dead (and maybe extend that courtesy to the supers as well).