How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

[Wanderer]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Yep.

 

Any disagreements we have about this issue really do stem from the idea of what makes and defines a superhero. Personally, I see a big difference between just a hero and a superhero. Heroes can and often kill. Superheros are about higher ideals and can do the job without needing to kill. Now I'm just repeating myself.

 

Bottom line, this has been an interesting debate, even if we did start spinning our wheels near the end.

 

Robb

 

We are almost eye to eye on this, except for a little but quite annoying (to me personally at least) detail. Please do not refer to Comic Code or Silver Age morality in terms that imply it's "higher", "better", or "superior". I have most extreme personal objections to the idea that many of the values it extols, such as unquestioned obedience to authority and sexual repression, are "superior", "higher" or "better", in any kind. It's one of the things that most gets me mad in these kind of debates.

[Kristopher]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I hate to get involved in this discussion... it never goes anywhere... and while I agree with much that Wanderer says, I do think he takes things to an extreme almost as bad as the knee-jerk "heroes don't kill" group.

 

That being said... there is a "real life" concept that is accepted legally and socially in most Western societies, as far as I can tell.

 

That would be, "Past behavior is an accepted indicator of future behavior."

 

This is used in all walks of life, from personal relationships to business hiring to legal precedent.

 

What someone has done before is a good indication of what they might do again.

 

It goes hand in hand with "pattern of behavior" which is solid argument for many decisions such as employment termination, paroll decisions, sentencing, etc.

 

The fact is, we aren't talking about acting without provocation. The last 100 times the Joker escaped, he murdered people. He was escaping again. My choices were, let him go or use lethal force. I chose to risk killing him, rather than risk him killing again. I will accept judgment of society upon my actions, but it was the right thing to do, and I'd do it again.

 

This is not murder... this is not vengeance... this is a heroic action. It should come with repercussions. I believe that hero would be looked upon differently... he would now be subject to the same "pattern of behavior" judgment... so if the next criminal he stopped was also killed, and the next... well then, now we have a pattern of behavior that may be needing to be stopped just like the Joker needed to be stopped.

 

No action ever exists in a vacuum. Meaning only exists in context of the event... in the context of past and future actions... in the context of intent... everything.

 

Both sides in this are looking for a clear cut answer. There is none.

 

Now, many people game in order to have a world where there IS a clear cut answer. "Heroes don't kill" or "Heroes kill for justice!" and both clear cut answers... and both are utter fantasy.

 

There is no easy, pat answer... and in fact, I game in order to explore these nuances and puzzles and shades of gray. I game, not to eliminate the gray, but to explore it as a person of power and influence (superhero, lord, space commander, whatever) that I can't in real life as a Management Trainer from Michigan.

 

To each their own... but the point is, this argument will never get anywhere as long as people keep looking for absolute answers. Absolutes just dont' exist... everything is situational and contextual.

 

Thanks for explaining some of what I had been trying to say better than I was.

[Kristopher]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Please do not refer to Comic Code or Silver Age morality in terms that imply it's "higher"' date=' "better", or "superior". I have most extreme personal objections to the idea that many of the values it extols, such as unquestioned obedience to authority and sexual repression, are "superior", "higher" or "better", in any kind. It's one of the things that most gets me mad in these kind of debates.[/quote']

 

 

Seconded. Emphatically.

[Beetle]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

We are almost eye to eye on this' date=' except for a little but quite annoying (to me personally at least) detail. Please do not refer to Comic Code or Silver Age morality in terms that imply it's "higher", "better", or "superior". I have most extreme personal objections to the idea that many of the values it extols, such as unquestioned obedience to authority and sexual repression, are "superior", "higher" or "better", in any kind. It's one of the things that most gets me mad in these kind of debates.[/quote']Are you sitting down? Yes? Good...

 

I agree with you

 

(on this at least...)

[Wanderer]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Are you sitting down? Yes? Good...

 

I agree with you

 

(on this at least...)

 

Though on second thoughts I have to admit I do sometimes committ the same sin on the opposite end of the spectrum when I extol the ehm, supposed heroism of anarchist vigilante mutant supremacist superhumans striking a mighty blow against the minions of the evil corporate military-industrial empire

 

On a more geek-y note, do you know another thing that makes me more than a little bitter ? While DC arranged to have a couple stories published where Supes mauled and made fools of very recognizable Authority clones (grrr), Hell will freeze over before it ever allows anyone to do a story where the Authority beats and ridicules a recognizable Supes lookalike.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

We are almost eye to eye on this' date=' except for a little but quite annoying (to me personally at least) detail. Please do not refer to Comic Code or Silver Age morality in terms that imply it's "higher", "better", or "superior". I have most extreme personal objections to the idea that many of the values it extols, such as unquestioned obedience to authority and sexual repression, are "superior", "higher" or "better", in any kind. It's one of the things that most gets me mad in these kind of debates.[/quote']

 

Seconded. Emphatically.

 

 

Then try to not attack Comic Code/Silver Age morality as being a total moral failure. I think most would be happy for a single standard there.

[nexus]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Though on second thoughts I have to admit I do sometimes committ the same sin on the opposite end of the spectrum when I extol the ehm, supposed heroism of anarchist vigilante mutant supremacist superhumans striking a mighty blow against the minions of the evil corporate military-industrial empire

 

Sometimes?

 

On a more geek-y note, do you know another thing that makes me more than a little bitter ? While DC arranged to have a couple stories published where Supes mauled and made fools of very recognizable Authority clones (grrr), Hell will freeze over before it ever allows anyone to do a story where the Authority beats and ridicules a recognizable Supes lookalike.

 

The Authority has already maimed and killed a number of "homages" to popular comic book characters such as the X men and Avengers. Take comfort in that.

[Wanderer]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Sometimes?

 

Well, if they bought "smoked, not inhaled"...

 

The Authority has already maimed and killed a number of "homages" to popular comic book characters such as the X men and Avengers. Take comfort in that.

 

This is of little confort. Marvel never did an issue where Avengers or X-men made pulp and utter fools of Authority clones. It's the Big Blue Boyscout I wish to see in suffering and ridicule to reciprocate

 

After a wait of decades, they didn't even allow one of my cherished childhood icons place a decisive Mjolnir blow in kryptonian teeth

[nexus]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

*shrugs*

 

I'm never sure why there's all the Superman hate anyway. He's not my fave character (He's too damn powerful, IMO), but he's an interesting one.

[Wanderer]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

*shrugs*

 

I'm never sure why there's all the Superman hate anyway. He's not my fave character (He's too damn powerful, IMO), but he's an interesting one.

 

I'd say for just the same reason there's all the Authority hate. In both cases, very popular and visible and enthusiastic poster childs for a whole subgenre and wildly different sensibilities about the comic book medium.

 

I wholly agree about Pre-Crisis (though the worst offenses were IMK mostly confined to the 50s and 60s; moving suns...). Post-crisis, I think he fits in nicely with the other big-league cosmic folks -takes a glance to Green Lantern, Dr.Strange, Thanos, Warlock, Quasar, Silver Surfer, Thor, Orion...

 

Yep. Though my opionion on the issue is quite biased. I am a total junkie for the wild-eyed Starlin-Simonson-Ditko stuff...

[Ghost Face]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

]*shrugs*

 

I'm never sure why there's all the Superman hate anyway. He's not my fave character (He's too damn powerful, IMO), but he's an interesting one.[/i]

 

The rewrite by John Bryne completely changed Superman's power level. He was no longer able to move planets, travel through time independently or breathe in space like he used to. I don't know if they've knocked his power level back to the pre Bryne era, but I liked the changes they made to him. It didn't seem like Superman was a God among supers...

[nexus]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

My tastes in supers runs towards the low end of the scale more so than the cosmic. I'm more into characters like Spider Man and the like than I am the cosmic marvels. but that's going off on a tangent.

[Wanderer]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

The rewrite by John Bryne completely changed Superman's power level. He was no longer able to move planets' date=' travel through time independently or breathe in space like he used to. I don't know if they've knocked his power level back to the pre Bryne era, but I liked the changes they made to him. It didn't seem like Superman was a God among supers...[/quote']

 

Though I liked the other changes, the fact he may (since IIRC it is an on-again, off-again thing varying with the author) need an air mask into space is quite stupid IMO. His body is sustained by solar energy. He doesn't need oxygen or food for fueling. If Silver Surfer (who has a quite similar sfx power source) doesn't need to breathe in space, so shouldn't Superman.

 

Besides, it looks really lame and contrary for the concept. Space Life Support is one of the defining traits for the brick/energy projector cosmic superhero. I remember the first time I saw him with air mask in Kingdom Come, i went "What the !??".

 

Yeah, yeah, further deariling the thread. Just to talk the character a bit without venting out hate. Actually, I like the sfx quite a bit (and have used it extensively for characters) and the concept, I just can't stand the way they turned him into a poster child for the Comic Code morality since the '50s. E.g. I am quite fond of the (IMO) sensible rewritings the concept took in Supreme Power's Hyperion, or in Superman: Secret Identity. Still the samaritan outlook, but without the unquestioning slavish reverence for authority.

[OddHat]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

On a more geek-y note, do you know another thing that makes me more than a little bitter ? While DC arranged to have a couple stories published where Supes mauled and made fools of very recognizable Authority clones (grrr), Hell will freeze over before it ever allows anyone to do a story where the Authority beats and ridicules a recognizable Supes lookalike.

 

It happened with The High in Ellis' Stormwatch run, as part of the setup for the Authority. He was handled very respectfully, and his trusting nature, honesty and idealism were shown to be hopelessly naive for Ellis' world. At the same time, he inspired Jenny Sparks to found the Authority. Good story arc.

 

Of course, I like most versions of Superman.

[Ghost Face]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

That's cool you like supers in that power range. We all have our personal tastes.

 

As for the heroes that kill, I think a few of the others hit upon the fact that it just became cool to have these kinds of heroes that were willing to take the villain's life. What's sad is that a hero like Batman who has been operating for years with a rouge's gallery that has, according to today's standards, justified several times over someone taking their life, he has held back. It's more about the act of killing then the motivation of why would the hero kill?

 

I don't have a problem with these Mature type comics... I think they have their place. But it seems the rest of the comic industry bastardized themselves imitating these mature comics and themes.

[Wanderer]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

It happened with The High in Ellis' Stormwatch run, as part of the setup for the Authority. He was handled very respectfully, and his trusting nature, honesty and idealim were shown to be hopelessly naive for Ellis' world. At the same time, he inspired Jenny Sparks to found the Authority. Good story arc.

 

Of course, I like most versions of Superman.

 

I am aware of the High, indirectly, though I have not yet come around to read the Stormwatch issues where he shows up (so many comics, so little time...). I agree it was a balanced, sensible portrait, and it removed some of the most obnoxious traits of the original: the High wished to make a better world, not be the guard dog of status quo...). What really incensed me were the Superman stories where he pulls the holier than you on Authority clones. It felt like DC's purposeful slap in the face to Iron Age and Authority fans. I realize some may feel the same with Authority taking on Avengers clones, though. To this Thor fan, the latter felt more detached from the original, so cheesy in their extreme evilness (just like all Authority enemies), and the story arc included a blatant homage to Marvel in the character of Dr. Kriegstein.

[nexus]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

That's cool you like supers in that power range. We all have our personal tastes.

 

As for the heroes that kill, I think a few of the others hit upon the fact that it just became cool to have these kinds of heroes that were willing to take the villain's life. What's sad is that a hero like Batman who has been operating for years with a rouge's gallery that has, according to today's standards, justified several times over someone taking their life, he has held back. It's more about the act of killing then the motivation of why would the hero kill?

 

I don't have a problem with these Mature type comics... I think they have their place. But it seems the rest of the comic industry bastardized themselves imitating these mature comics and themes.

 

I think I posted before on this thread. Its not Heroes that have killed that bother me. Its the motivations and reaction to that use of lethal force I want to see be consistent and reasonable, on either end of the spectrum. I can believe that sometimes killing has to be done, but I want to see repercussion and reaction to it. I want there to be reason for it beside expendiency or it looks "cool" to see exploding heads.

[nexus]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I am aware of the High' date=' indirectly, though I have not yet come around to read the Stormwatch issues where he shows up (so many comics, so little time...). I agree it was a balanced, sensible portrait, and it removed some of the most obnoxious traits of the original: the High wished to make a better world, not be the guard dog of status quo...). What really incensed me were the Superman stories where he pulls the holier than you on Authority clones. It felt like DC's purposeful slap in the face to Iron Age and Authority fans. I realize some may feel the same with Authority taking on Avengers clones, though. To this Thor fan, the latter felt more detached from the original, so cheesy in their extreme evilness (just like all Authority enemies), and the story arc included a blatant homage to Marvel in the character of Dr. Kriegstein.[/quote']

 

Wanderer, what you honestly don't seem to get is that Superman "Defending the status quo" in the DCU is actually the right thing to do. The "status quo" is pretty damn good, particularly compared to Ellis' Stormwatch world. Its a different setting requiring different types of heros. When Superman did the "holier than thou"...well he was holier than the Authority clones. They were the villains of the peice in that setting. Like the Avengers (as government backed supers) were the villains of the peice in The Authority.

[Ghost Face]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I am aware of the High' date=' indirectly, though I have not yet come around to read the Stormwatch issues where he shows up (so many comics, so little time...). I agree it was a balanced, sensible portrait, and it removed some of the most obnoxious traits of the original: the High wished to make a better world, not be the guard dog of status quo...). What really incensed me were the Superman stories where he pulls the holier than you on Authority clones. It felt like DC's purposeful slap in the face to Iron Age and Authority fans. I realize some may feel the same with Authority taking on Avengers clones, though. To this Thor fan, the latter felt more detached from the original, so cheesy in their extreme evilness (just like all Authority enemies), and the story arc included a blatant homage to Marvel in the character of Dr. Kriegstein.[/color']

 

I haven't read a whole lot of the Authority, but from what I have read, the entire team is not afraid of using deadly force in a lot of situations. If that's the world they operate in, that's cool... the lines are clearly defined. I just see this as what would be considered a realistic or dark world. Personally, I like four-color with an occasional Daredevil/Bullseye moment thrown in. But that's if the situation and fits the character actually doing it.

[fbdaury]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

 

As for the heroes that kill, I think a few of the others hit upon the fact that it just became cool to have these kinds of heroes that were willing to take the villain's life. What's sad is that a hero like Batman who has been operating for years with a rouge's gallery that has, according to today's standards, justified several times over someone taking their life, he has held back. It's more about the act of killing then the motivation of why would the hero kill?

 

 

Wait, Batman is regularly attacked by various shades of Red? :grin:

[Ghost Face]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I think I posted before on this thread. Its not Heroes that have killed that bother me. Its the motivations and reaction to that use of lethal force I want to see be consistent and reasonable' date=' on either end of the spectrum. I can believe that sometimes killing has to be done, but I want to see repercussion and reaction to it. I want there to be reason for it beside expendiency or it looks "cool" to see exploding heads.[/color']

 

I agree with you on the points you made. I don't want to see heroes like Spiderman traveling down that killing road. There was a story a while back about Captain America having to take a terrorists/agents life to save innocents. Cap was pretty broke up about it even after being in WWII it wasn't something he took lightly.

[Ghost Face]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Wait' date=' Batman is regularly attacked by various shades of Red? :grin:[/color']

 

Batman's weakness is pink...

[OddHat]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I haven't read a whole lot of the Authority' date=' but from what I have read, the entire team is not afraid of using deadly force in a lot of situations. If that's the world they operate in, that's cool... the lines are clearly defined. I just see this as what would be considered a realistic or dark world. Personally, I like four-color with an occasional Daredevil/Bullseye moment thrown in. But that's if the situation and fits the character actually doing it.[/quote']

 

Ellis' run, from Stormwatch to the Authority, was very good. The characters start out serving the status quo, trying to do the right thing, only to learn that their leader is mad and the governments they serve are corrupt. The High and his team of Justice League homages arive, a mix of true idealists and two true villains (Zatana and Batman), and try to make the world a better place. In large part because they are idealists, and because they haven't rooted out the corrupt elements within their number, they fail. The High / Superman dies in a final attempt to destroy the headquarters of the man who killed his friends, the head of Stormwatch (and the creator of Midnighter and Apollo). Jenny Sparks has a history with The High, and his failure inspires her to make the world a better place through a mix of high ideals and a pragmatic willingness to do what needs to be done. Ellis' run ends with the Authority, lead by Jenny, risking their lives to save the world, defying the ultimate authority figure in the name of humanity.

 

It had its flaws, but it was a great story.

 

I hated Millar's work. I felt like he completely missed the point, and he was no where near the writer Ellis' was, which meant that the themes he did carry over from the Ellis run became cartoonish. I stopped reading after his Authority Wipes Out The Marvel Universe story.

 

Maybe all that was off topic.

[Wanderer]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

I think I posted before on this thread. Its not Heroes that have killed that bother me. Its the motivations and reaction to that use of lethal force I want to see be consistent and reasonable' date=' on either end of the spectrum. I can believe that sometimes killing has to be done, but I want to see repercussion and reaction to it. I want there to be reason for it beside expendiency or it looks "cool" to see exploding heads.[/quote']

 

Re ultraviolence issue, the first and second time you look at it in a story, it feels satisfying because it lays to rest that annoying "how can a punch/blast strong enough to perforate steel be so ineffective against flesh" inconsistence. The fourth time and following, you fast-forward, like porn. It takes a master like Tarantino or Rodriguez to show a hundred goons dismembered in a single sequence and look cool throughout.

 

I think the exploding heads bits comes less from purposeful upping of violence, mainly, and more from the empowerment from "let's see our lone hero easily mowe down a whole army of nameless goons", like the "one martial artist is worth an army" of wuxia. It comes to the "bigger, stronger, with more colors" to make the comic look like the equivalent of Hollywood blockbuster. "Other comics show the superhero beating down 50 goones at a time?? we'll show you 500, with exploding heads". Though, it must be recognized that in most cases, the heads being exploded are those of the soldiers of the Evil Empire/Mastermind in war situations, and the cold-blood execution of the Master Villain is alwasy made sure to look like he richly deserved it.

 

The Iron Age trick is to show that anyone that buys the farm among the hero's opponents, bought it in atrocities, and however ruthless the hero may be, the enemies are far, far worse. It always looks and feels like war. Tragic deaths are left (in abundance, too) for the hero's Contacts and DNPCs, the better for him to brood, have nightmares about, and build up his revenge drive.

[nexus]

Re: How do you feel about Superheroes that kill?

 

Re ultraviolence issue' date=' the first and second time you look at it in a story, it feels satisfying because it lays to rest that annoying "how can a punch/blast strong enough to perforate steel be so ineffective against flesh" inconsistence. .[/quote']

 

I saw it as pulling your punches when you had to. Kind of like I can discipline a child without leaving them bloodied and bruised or a two MAs can spar without severaly injuring each other. But to each their own and all that.

 

Edit: It also gets a little odd in the later Authority when it like they are the only ones with any defenses and all their opposition has PDs and EDs of 3 or less.