Newbie Question - Judging the Challenge

[Ryhope Wood]

Hi

 

I've been attracted to Hero System for some time because its flexibility suits my imagination more than my current RPG of choice - d20.

 

My problem is that I need weening off class levels and challenge ratings.

 

For a standard hero game of three PCs of 100 + 50 points, what sort out points level might represent a very challenging NPC, a moderately challenging NPC etc? How many average point stooges make a good challenge?

 

I appreciate that there is some variability depending on the exact characteristics of the NPC - magic / combat prowess etc and circumstances that makes it more of an art rather than science. I've looked in both the core rules and the various supplements / adventures for guidance on this without much joy.

 

Your thoughts would be very much appreciated!

 

Ian

[CourtFool]

Yeah! More D20ers are brought into the light.

 

[thread=30709]In need of help![/thread] covers this exact topic. I hope it helps.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Newbie Question - Judging the Challenge

 

To address it for a more Fantasy Hero oriented approach...

 

...it depends. In D&D a party of four 1st level rogues and a party of four first level fighters would have differing amounts of trouble with (say) a bunch of goblins.

 

Well, in Hero, there's the same issue. A 150 point character can be skill focused, or combat focused. And skill focused is often a good idea, since it makes your PC more interesting... but less combat optimal.

 

Also, the effectiveness of a character is directly linked to how a player uses them. Hero PC's have a _lot_ of combat options.

 

However, there are ways to get a balanced combat. First, it helps if the PC's are built to the same standards. OCV, DCV, Speed, Damage and Defenses are all pretty important to a character being effective. As such, no character should have a huge edge in any of those areas.

 

This rule can (and often does) get broken, but it's useful when you're still new to balancing encounters.

 

So. Assuming the PC's are all fairly equal combat wise (which Hero requires the GM to enforce, not the rules set...), creating a challenge isn't too tricky.

 

The best way to balance an encounter is to, quite simply, play it out and see what happens. Go with a challenge that fits the story. Then do a test run.

 

 

Oh... and points =/= power. Points =/= usefulness. Anything good costs points. A single minded combat creature might cost much less than someone/thing with extensive non-combat abilities, and still be more deadly.

 

Luckily, while balancing points can be hard, there's one saving factor: PC's that lose are likely to still be alive. Just make sure there's an option for "what if the PC's get captured?".

[Ternaugh]

Re: Newbie Question - Judging the Challenge

 

A few things that I use to judge the challenge in FH:

 

1. For stock thugs, I usually assume 1 to 2 thugs per character in the encounter. If the PCs are exceptionally tough, I add on skill levels, armor, and then SPD, usually in that order. These tend to be rather generic writeups, since they are meant to be defeated fairly easily. Most thugs tend to be SPD 3, with an occasional SPD 4 thrown in for variation.

 

2. For a tougher encounter, I add a "seasoned" thug (one that looks a lot like the PCs' characters--complete with full writeup). Usually, the "seasoned" thug will have some useful tactical skills, to better use the stock thugs. Mages usually fit into this category. Under most circumstances, the PCs will win at this level, though it may be rough for them.

 

3. For a major encounter, I usually have a team of "seasoned" thugs, with a liberal dose of stock thugs, if appropriate. This level of encounter is usually used as a set piece in my games, with plenty of chances for the PCs to act heroically. There may also be a character or two who are much more powerful than the PCs, though in my games they usually have another agenda rather than fighting the PCs.

 

4. Don't forget obstacles and obstructions. Bushes, trees, bodies, etc all serve to give the PCs something to fight around, while giving the whole session a nice set decoration.

 

5. Caveat: I usually avoid the ultra-powerful solitary bad guys in FH, mainly because they rarely work out the way you expect. Mainly, the PCs just gang up on them, and beat them to a bloody pulp.

 

Of course, YMMV,

JoeG

[Markdoc]

Re: Newbie Question - Judging the Challenge

 

If you are unsure of the power level try throwing a "layered challenge" at them.

 

So for example, have them attacked by 1 to 1.5 times their number of thug types (bandits, goblins, wolves, whatever), with some more seen "in the background") the players cream the first lot, the other group can run in and help (while a third group appears, if needed). If the players are having a hard time but kill their opponents anyway, then the second group can get scared and run away. Run 3 or 4 encounters like this and you get a good idea of what kind of challenge they are up to.

 

It's not just about points. there are so many more combat options in Hero that a smart player who blocks or dodges when needed and moves his levels around cleverly can often count for much more than his points would indicate.

 

cheers, Mark

[MitchellS]

Re: Newbie Question - Judging the Challenge

 

Markdoc has really hit the nail on the head. A lot of it depends on which options and combat maneuvers you use. A 3 speed character fighting someone with 2 speed can block twice and still get off a good attack [or a 4 speed against a 3]. The main difference between d20 and Hero is that you must use all the combat maneuvers. In d20 people are used to wading in and letting armor class deal with everything. In Hero armor might keep you from getting killed but it won't save you from being knocked out so you need the combat maneuvers.

 

The X factor in Hero is the stun damage from lucky rolls. You can have a 200 point PC fighting a kobold with a short sword and one lucky damage roll and hit location to the head [30 stun damage] has a great chance of stunning and seriously hurting the PC, especially if it's a face shot where few characters wear armor.

 

When I played Fantasy Hero I used the CV rule: every 2 CV lower than the target was good for an additional attacker. So if your PC has a 7 DCV [5 from dex and 2 from shield] he has an even chance against one max 7 OCV foe, or two max 5 OCV foes, or three max 3 OCV foes, etc. This is assuming damages and defenses are about even. A 3 OCV foe with a lightsaber is far more dangerous than a 7 OCV foe with a knife.

[AlHazred]

Re: Newbie Question - Judging the Challenge

 

A 3 OCV foe with a lightsaber is far more dangerous than a 7 OCV foe with a knife.

 

Well, now, that depends on how you stat out the lightsaber, no? (Not trying to open up that debate again!)

 

I generally agree with Markdoc and MitchellS (like that OCV guideline). Keep in mind that your players only see what you show them, and shouldn't know anything about your characters at all. Maybe the big bad only looked tough? Maybe the small critter is a lot tougher and spunkier than they figured? Don't be afraid to fudge your results at the beginning; better to make an evening challenging than have it end early with half the people asleep.

 

For example, look at Treb's example in CourtFool's linked thread. Were I to run into that problem now (big Godzilla-like monster one-punched by PC with powerful attack), I'd just do my math behind the screen and tell the character he staggered the thing, but it's not down. Maybe it has 50% Damage Reduction. Maybe it's actually part of a horde. Maybe now it tries to avoid the heroes, leading them on a chase through the city, as it destroys buildings in its attempt to flee. That's much more dramatically interesting than: "Wow, you nailed it, it falls down. See you next week?"

 

FWIW, I'm pretty sure Treb would do that too, now. I had similar experiences judging foes my first time; it happens to everyone. I used to be more petty, though. I remember one important NPC I had, who was flying to get away from the heroes in the main city. One of them managed to shoot him and kill him outright. I was so ticked off by their ribbing, I had him explode, taking out a city block, and knocked one PC into a coma for a week. They still don't let me live that one down.

[CourtFool]

The players should be thankful I do not kill them outright.

 

Damn players! Who do they think they are?