Teleportation, really that different?

[Mike W]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

On a different but related note' date=' would you allow someone with a UAA Teleport to bring themselves along (when in contact, of course) if the Teleport has the Incrased Mass Adder? They would certainly be, "willing." [/quote']

 

I don't see why not. UAA says that such a thing CAN be used on others, but I don't remember anything that says UAA MUST be used on others. In fact, it specifically says that while you are forcing the power on another character, YOU(the person who bought the power in the first place) maintain control of the power.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

Difference between Flight and Teleport in terms of dropping into a volcano:

 

If you're strong enough, you can keep holding on to the grabber. But teleporterguy just bamfs out, and down you fall....

[RDU Neil]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

Difference between Flight and Teleport in terms of dropping into a volcano:

 

If you're strong enough, you can keep holding on to the grabber. But teleporterguy just bamfs out, and down you fall....

 

Odd situation... but I'd have no problem ruling that the "dropped" character could make an attack roll to try and grab before they fell. Just like I'd give another character a chance to grab a flyer after they "let go."

 

Don't see any difference... but then I've always required a grab for T-port... as I stated above.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

Odd situation... but I'd have no problem ruling that the "dropped" character could make an attack roll to try and grab before they fell. Just like I'd give another character a chance to grab a flyer after they "let go."

 

Don't see any difference... but then I've always required a grab for T-port... as I stated above.

Ah, yes, but you may be able to use Teleport to escape a Grab, so if the target Grabs you to avoid falling, you may not have to take him with you when you Teleport if you don't want to....

 

EDIT: Of course, in the same sense that you cannot normally move after you attack, I might not let the teleporter teleport over the volcano, drop (Throw?) the target, then teleport away, so they'd better have some Gliding, Flight, or enough time to take another Phase and teleport away after they start to fall....

[RDU Neil]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

Ah' date=' yes, but you may be able to use Teleport to escape a Grab, so if the target Grabs you to avoid falling, you may not have to take him with you when you Teleport if you don't want to....[/quote']

 

Gotcha... true and all... but I still don't think it makes t-port all that broken. Just powerful... and isn't that what supers are supposed to be?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

Gotcha... true and all... but I still don't think it makes t-port all that broken. Just powerful... and isn't that what supers are supposed to be?

Yeah. I don't think it is broken, either. I think it is comparable to Flight. I think both are pretty broken when compared to Running, though. Especially in heroic games, which the system is supposed to cover as well. I probably wouldn't mind seeing Flight and Teleport increased to 3 or 4 per hex, and Leaping, Gliding, and Swimming increased to the same cost as Running. Just my taste. (Oh, and see my edit above; I'm so unscrupulous about editing. ).

[RDU Neil]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

Yeah. I don't think it is broken' date=' either. I think it is comparable to Flight. I think both are pretty broken when compared to Running, though. Especially in heroic games, which the system is supposed to cover as well. I probably wouldn't mind seeing Flight and Teleport increased to 3 or 4 per hex, and Leaping, Gliding, and Swimming increased to the same cost as Running. Just my taste. (Oh, and see my edit above; I'm so unscrupulous about editing. ).[/quote']

 

Getting off on a tangent now (bad fingers... stop typing this stuff) but this is an interesting question. Has 20 plus years of play testing indicated the true value of different types of movement... so that costs should be adjusted?

 

i.e. Do Flight and T-Port allow for such better movement options that they should be priced at a Tier One level... while Running, Leaping, Gliding, Swimming cost less because they are Tier Two level abilities.

 

Understand, I know that axiomatic/mechanically, all movement should be equivalent with only SFX differentiating (and/or advantages to one kind of movement over another balanced by advantages of another kind of movements inherent advantages and limitations).

 

What I'm asking is... has Game Rule and Play Experience over the past 25 years shown that Flight and T-port (as examples) are just "better" and therefore should be priced higher?

 

Likely a lot of Steve's 5th Edition rule changes were based on not just trying to make things "mechanically pure" (the regen change... the intant change, uh, change)... but also he likely adjusted things like this UAA bit on T-Port, based on a level of "Play Experience" that showed t-port to be broken for it's cost.

 

Now, gratned, mechanically pure doesn't mean better or more playable (again, Regen and Instant Change) so "Play Experience" needs to be factored in.

 

This does open a whole can of worms in terms of what ELSE should be repriced due to "Play Experience" value... and likely could be argued that it gets away from the toolkit model... but I'd be hard pressed to argue with something like Flight and T-Port costing more than Running, Leaping, etc.

 

Another example would be Stealth and Acrobatics. Simple 3 point skills, but INFINITELY more valuable than almost anything else on the skill chart. For the same points I get "Physics 12 or less" and you KNOW that Stealth and Acrobatics will be used five times each per game in powerful ways... and Physics will come up once in every five games.

 

Play Experience and Game Rule level issues should figure into the cost of things... but HOW exactly... well that is another thread entirely.

 

Thanks... got me thinking! (Always a dangerous thing. )

[beauxdeigh]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

Alright, how does this question on UAA and Steve's answer factor into the original discussion? I think I just got more confused.

 

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As for the tangent, well this is where an actual discussion of the benefits and limitations of each type of movement would be handy. HERO was originally designed for Supers, so it would make sense in the genre that Flight would be relatively cheap. Teleport was made a little more expensive, depending on what the character was trying to do with it. Now that HERO is more a Universal Toolkit than just Champions the Super! Roleplaying Game, does Flight's Turn Mode balance with Running's ground movement balance with Teleports lack of velocity?

[RDU Neil]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

Alright' date=' how does this question on UAA and Steve's answer factor into the original discussion? I think I just got more confused.

 

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As for the tangent, well this is where an actual discussion of the benefits and limitations of each type of movement would be handy. HERO was originally designed for Supers, so it would make sense in the genre that Flight would be relatively cheap. Teleport was made a little more expensive, depending on what the character was trying to do with it. Now that HERO is more a Universal Toolkit than just Champions the Super! Roleplaying Game, does Flight's Turn Mode balance with Running's ground movement balance with Teleports lack of velocity?

 

Well... there is a history of Steve's gut responses to things being a little off... so take that for what it's worth. To me, he has now changed the playing field from "To teleport unwilling with you, you have to have the advantage of UAA on your t-port." Now he seems to be saying, "To teleport the unwilling with you, you have to have t-port bought twice, once WITH UAA to teleport them... and once without, to teleport yourself... and somehow you can use both at the same time."

 

Ugh.

 

 

 

I mean... ugh ugh.

 

 

And you wonder why I stick with "Just grab and hold 'em like any other movement." ???

[prestidigitator]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

Alright' date=' how does this question on UAA and Steve's answer factor into the original discussion? I think I just got more confused.

Arg! It doesn't! It's crrrrrap! Why the heck shouldn't you be able to target yourself with a Power bought as UAA?!?!?! Does that mean you can't sock yourself in the eye too?!

 

As for the tangent, well this is where an actual discussion of the benefits and limitations of each type of movement would be handy. HERO was originally designed for Supers, so it would make sense in the genre that Flight would be relatively cheap. Teleport was made a little more expensive, depending on what the character was trying to do with it. Now that HERO is more a Universal Toolkit than just Champions the Super! Roleplaying Game, does Flight's Turn Mode balance with Running's ground movement balance with Teleports lack of velocity?

Exactly. Heck, I've always felt that even for superheros Flight is more useful than Running. If you've got Flight and some ranged attacks, what's the brick going to do to you (well, look for something to throw, but then we get into all kinds of situational issues, and technically most of the brick's CSLs probably aren't going to apply to the ranged attack of throwing things either...)? Face it: Flight gives you a whole third dimension of freedom; that is so much more useful than a lack of Turn Mode! Soooo much!

[beauxdeigh]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

Well... there is a history of Steve's gut responses to things being a little off... so take that for what it's worth. To me' date=' he has now changed the playing field from "To teleport unwilling with you, you have to have the advantage of UAA on your t-port." Now he seems to be saying, "To teleport the unwilling with you, you have to have t-port bought twice, once WITH UAA to teleport them... and once without, to teleport yourself... and somehow you can use both at the same time."[/quote']Wow. Yikes.

 

60 AP =

a) 30" Running

30" Flight

c) 10" Teleport (at most)

 

...if you want to take someone 'with you', involuntarily.

 

Ugh.

Yep.

 

I mean... ugh ugh.

My original point.

 

And you wonder why I stick with "Just grab and hold 'em like any other movement." ???

Nope' date=' never wondered in the least. I just wondered why people hadn't raised much of a stink over this. Maybe everyone else but me saw the validity, but that's been proven false. I mean, Damage Shield is [i']tame[/i] by comparison.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

Well' date=' a good part of my argument, at least as it has tracked lately, has been that one reason UAA may have been required was as a balancing factor because Teleport was already a bit more powerful/versatile than other forms of movement, so unless you wanted it to be 3pts an inch, you had to give something up to balance it. Maybe, there were concerns that people wouldn't like or want to buy Teleport if it costs 3 pts per inch.[/quote']

The flaw in this agruement is that it promotes the idea that Teleport is inherently more powerful than other Movement Powers, and thus more powerful than other Powers in general. The system doesn't work that way. It's all balanced at the base cost level, not on the potential level (the actual Modifiers have build in adjustment for the potential level though). The thing is, requiring it to have UAA suddenly makes it less powerful than other Movement Powers. Of course, that's my opinion, rather than a fact, but I can support it with a list of what you can and can't do with various Movement Powers and which items on the list match up between them. But that's a lot of work.

 

Still, part of my original argument had been that Teleport often involved doing more to another character's body than just picking it up and moving it. It often involved interdimensional gates, taking someone's body apart and putting it back together and various other special effects that usually required you to do things to a person's body that Power Defense or some kind of "active resistance" would normally make more difficult. Things that, were they built as attacks that did damage would normally end up NND, AVLD, or the like(e.g. - Teleportation sickness/disorientation). So, reasoning from special effect, you wouldn't normally be able to do these things as "standard attacks". They were special attacks. So the UAA became the way "through" the resistance. The thing that allowed you to do these kinds of attacks and that, in general, allowed you to take apart someone's body and put it back together somewhere else, or to send them, however briefly, to another dimension. The fact that Teleport is probably a bit more powerful than other forms of movement that cost a similar amount(such as running) helped justify the extra cost of UAA. The UAA helped balance out the other advantages Teleport has.

You talking SFX again, which have nothing to do with game balance. I could just as easily define my Running as mind controlling the groud the push me along, but it isn't inherently limited to not work when Running over ground that has Mental Defense.

 

Now, how much of this is really what Steve was thinking, well, we'd have to ask him. But it's more or less the way I've always viewed it, and as a teacher, I always tell my students that they need to be thoroughly familiar with arguments on all sides, so I thought I'd take up the fight for the rule as it is written, partly just to play devil's advocate and partly to give people who may have been thinking of changing the rule some things to consider before they did. As always, GM's will modify things here or there. I don't remember ever playing a game that didn't have a few house "tweaks". At least, not for a very long time. But as a GM, I always pick apart any rules I change completely to make sure there aren't hidden balance issues or rationals behind rules that I might have missed, and any good GM I've played with has done the same. And since the original posts essentially were asking us to do just that, presumably because they as a GM wanted to make sure they weren't missing anything before changing the rule, like I said, I figured I'd take up the fight for the rule as is since no one else seemed willing to.

 

Kind of an off the wall devil's advocate possition though. You haven't really explain how and in what way Teleport is too powerful if it can take unwilling passengers along. You've mentioned a number of things without really acknowleging how those make this use of Teleport more powerful but not the normal (just the user) uses of Teleport more powerful. I'm not sure where you stand on this at all, especially since you've all but said you were only taking the up the arguement to stand for a rule that others seemed to stand against.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

Kind of an off the wall devil's advocate possition though. You haven't really explain how and in what way Teleport is too powerful if it can take unwilling passengers along. You've mentioned a number of things without really acknowleging how those make this use of Teleport more powerful but not the normal (just the user) uses of Teleport more powerful. I'm not sure where you stand on this at all' date=' especially since you've all but said you were only taking the up the arguement to stand for a rule that others seemed to stand against.[/quote']

I just had to pose this one. How about buying a Base that is buried deep, deep underground (say hollowed out of the Earth's iron core), and sufficient Life Support so that you suffer no damage for a few minutes. However, it has no Life Support to enable you to breathe, and in fact may have a Change Environment to specifically make it airtight (just to be sure). You put a Fixed Location there and start popping in and leaving your baggage lying around to slowly suffocate....

[David Blue]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

I just had to pose this one. How about buying a Base that is buried deep' date=' deep underground (say hollowed out of the Earth's iron core), and sufficient Life Support so that you suffer no damage for a few minutes. However, it has no Life Support to enable you to breathe, and in fact may have a Change Environment to specifically make it airtight (just to be sure). You put a Fixed Location there and start popping in and leaving your baggage lying around to slowly suffocate.... [/quote']Sure There are lots of easy and/or cheap ways to achieve the same effect.

 

Underwater is obvious. If you have life support versus cold, pressure and needing to breathe, and your target doesn't, that's all.

 

Teammates are fine. I'd say a buried questonite container with V.O.I.C.E. heavy hitters is a lethal environment. A couple of dozen metres straight down from the fight (through concrete foundations) should be fine.

 

Teleport leaves no obvious trail, no help is coming, and there doesn't have to be any way out at all unless the target also teleports.

 

I think it's reasonable to say you can often kill any character you can teleport. It's like the instant burial attacks you can get with tunnelling. Arguably better.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

Odd situation... but I'd have no problem ruling that the "dropped" character could make an attack roll to try and grab before they fell. Just like I'd give another character a chance to grab a flyer after they "let go."

 

Don't see any difference... but then I've always required a grab for T-port... as I stated above.

 

I'm pretty sure you can teleport out of grabs.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

I'm pretty sure you can teleport out of grabs.

Yep, if the Grabber doesn't have the advantage Cannot Be Escaped With Teleportation on his STR or whatever other power he uses the Teleporter is not stopped unless HE bought his Teleportation with the limitation Must Pass Through Intervening Space.

 

HM

[RDU Neil]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

I'm pretty sure you can teleport out of grabs.

 

Which takes another action... so at this point both targets have been plummeting toward the volcano for a phase or so.

 

Yeah...t-port has an advantage here... but so what. A lot of things have advantages is specific situations. T-port shouldn't be required to buy itself twice in order to do this maneuver.

 

It's never been a game balance issue in my years of play, why make it infinitely more complicated, rule wise, than it has to be?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

Sure There are lots of easy and/or cheap ways to achieve the same effect.

 

Underwater is obvious. If you have life support versus cold, pressure and needing to breathe, and your target doesn't, that's all.

 

Teammates are fine. I'd say a buried questonite container with V.O.I.C.E. heavy hitters is a lethal environment. A couple of dozen metres straight down from the fight (through concrete foundations) should be fine.

 

Teleport leaves no obvious trail, no help is coming, and there doesn't have to be any way out at all unless the target also teleports.

 

I think it's reasonable to say you can often kill any character you can teleport. It's like the instant burial attacks you can get with tunnelling. Arguably better.

 

Try it in practice and you'll find Teleport in actuallity isn't all that grand. A burried bunker full of ambush agents is almost impossible to pull off, and tends to only occur against a target that can't be taken down easily, and one that will require the entire group just to grab and hold still long enough for the Teleport to even work. I don't really see the GM allowing a character access to those kinda situations all the time just 'caus. Of course, the Teleport can buy a Base and some Followers, but then he's spending more points on that ability, so it automatically balances itself.

 

As for teleporitng into solid matter... it's never gonna happen. When you teleport into solid matter, you instantly appear in the nearest empty hex to the spot you tried to appear in, and the Teleporter then takes potentially leathal damage. Not the passenger, just the Teleporter. The passenger will be fine, other than a slight confusion of being feeling like he was moved a great distance only being three feet away and having half a hero drapped around his shoulders (the other half being half a mile down, having never made the automatic trip back up).