Teleportation, really that different?

[beauxdeigh]

I bought Champions back in 1983(ish) when it was the box set with two books, the ever present Rosie's map and the little yellow six siders which is now commonly referred to as the 3rd Ed. When I crack that rules book to the powers section and peruse the description of Teleport, it the same rules on Noncombat movement as my copy of 5er does. It takes an extra phase to go the extra distance and you suffer half DCV and 0 OCV during that phase and until your next combat phase. I was, maybe, 12 at the time, and didn't ponder the rule, and I've accepted it as rote ever since that time.

 

I was running a FtF game on Friday night, and the player of the Teleporting Dark Avenger asked me about how much it would cost him to be able to teleport more than himself. The first thing out of my mouth was 5 points for 2x mass, and I cracked open his copy of FREd to show him. There, on the page, was the following:

If the additional mass is additional persons, those persons have to want to be Teleported; involuntarily Teleporting someone requires the Usable As Attack Advantage.

This is new. Well, new to me anyway. It isn't in the BBB or the HSR. I bet this screws up some team tactics...like some of the good ones I remember from Strike Force. What if one of the teleporter's teammates is knocked out? Is he a voluntary target or involuntary? What does that mean for knocked out villains?

 

I'm over 30 now, and know the rules pretty well. As such, I am much less willing to just accept this as rote, and it's making me question my previous acquiessence as well. I'm trying to reconcile in my head why Teleport is so different than all the other movement powers that it needs all these special rules.

 

Flying Strongman grabs Street Thug #3 and flies up 30". Street Thug #3 is not willing to go up with Flying Strongman, and yet Flying Strongman does not need to buy any special Advantages to carry said hapless Thug with him. All he has to do is maintain his Grab. In fact, every other Movement allows a character to drag or carry someone along with them as long as they have the available STR to do so and can keep a firm grip on the unwilling passenger. Even Swinging, Leaping and Gliding, which only cost one point an inch.

 

Of course, you offer, those characters had to pay for the STR to grab and hold while they move, and Teleport doesn't have to Grab, they just have to touch. I totally agree, but a balance already exists. Teleport has to pay for Increased Mass. Teleporting Dark Avenger cannot automatically teleport willing targets (or inanimate objects) that his more than capable 30 STR would allow. No, he would have to pay 20 additional points to be able to do that, let alone carry an unwilling target. To take someone 'involuntarily' he'd have to place a +1 Advantage on the entire cost of Teleport! Excuse me, but doesn't that seem a little excessive?

 

I have a crazy idea. How about a rule that says moving someone involuntarily with Teleport has the same requirements as moving someone involuntarily with any other movement power: You have to Grab them first. If you want to do it by touch, then you need the Advantage, as that would be seriously advantageous. Otherwise, Teleport is a Movement power, and should be kept in line with other Movement powers as much as possible.

 

Which brings me to my next point: my original acquiessence. Why does a Noncombat Teleport require an extra Phase? I'm not exactly sure I see a good reason.

 

Let me work this out. If I remove the extra phase, the character will still suffer from Noncombat movement (like any other Movement power) until the start of his next Phase. 0 OCV, half DCV upon arrival in the new space. The character does not have to pass through the intervening space, and thus is not a target during his move, which is good. However, he doesn't legitimately have the option to use the optional DCV calculation based on how far he moves, and any movement based attack maneuvers cannot gain the munchkin-y benefit of a noncombat charge, which is bad. To keep it even more balanced, I might allow opposing characters to be able to target the start or end location of the teleport in the phase it happens, depending on their DEX and SPD, but that might be more work.

 

So, collected HERO gallery, what say you? Does anyone else have experience with either of these rules? Am I missing some key balance issue that makes them make perfect sense in context? Am I horribly horribly wrong?

 

Am I right?

[Mike W]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

My guess is that teleport has to be "targeted", that is, you have to be able to know where you're going, otherwise, you port blind. So to teleport to someplace you can't see(which most non-coms would fall under) requires you to concentrate for a moment to help make sure that you don't teleport into something like a wall. Or at least to make it less likely that you do.

 

As far as using teleport vs. others, I can see why you have to pay the extra points. It is essentially making an attack that has no defense other than DCV so it should be more expensive. You could do a lot of damage with that kind of maneuver.

 

In my game, unconcious targets are always considered willing because they are not capable of resisting.

[beauxdeigh]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

My guess is that teleport has to be "targeted"' date=' that is, you have to be able to know where you're going, otherwise, you port blind. So to teleport to someplace you can't see(which most non-coms would fall under) requires you to concentrate for a moment to help make sure that you don't teleport into something like a wall. Or at least to make it less likely that you do.[/quote']

I can kind of see that, but it's a rationalization. I don't see how the extra phase is an in game balance to, say, noncombat flight.

 

As far as using teleport vs. others' date=' I can see why you have to pay the extra points. It is essentially making an attack that has no defense other than DCV so it should be more expensive. You could do a lot of damage with that kind of maneuver.[/quote']

That doesn't hold up for me. Flying Strongman can do a lot of damage with his maneuvers, too, and the only defenses from being moved is DCV or being strong enough to break out of the Grab...which is what I'm suggesting for Teleport. In fact, good ol' F.S. can do even more damage because his maneuvers can gain damage due to velocity, unlike Teleporting Dark Avenger. Can I see an example of how a character with 23" of Teleport can do more damage to an opponent than a character with 23" of Flight?

 

In my game' date=' unconcious targets are always considered willing because they are not capable of resisting.[/quote']

That's one for voluntary unconscious people. I could argue that your teammate isn't able to willingly join you, due to their inability to comply (and have in fact heard such an argument in a D&D game where these kinds of loopholes abound) and as such is an involuntary target. I would probably rule as you, but that doesn't make it universal.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

I'm right there with you, beauxdeigh. The need for UAA makes no sense for me. I don't need to by my Leaping UAA to carry someone along, nor my Flight or Running. What limits me is my STR, and I don't even have to spend extra to apply that, it's all free. Besides, with Telport, you're going along for the ride too, so it's not really any kind of an Attack, is it?

 

With Teleport, you spend an extra 5 points, and you can take a passenger. Your STR doesn't determine how much you take though, it's those extra 5 points. If your passenger is unwilling/resisting, well when what? Back in 4th edition I made a ruling that you couldn't take along a passenger unless the passenger was Grabbed. Now, that's the maneuver Grab, not necessarily wrapping the arms about and holding tight. All of the maneuver penalties for having Grabbed someone needed to apply, and the passenger had to have all of the penalties associated with being Grabbed by the Teleporter. I was extremely lax with this for willing teleports (the penalties needn't apply, but there still had to be some kind of a "holding" going on). This way, if you wanted to Teleport the VIPER agent over the cliff, let go, and Teleport just yourself back, you would first have to successfully Grab the VIPER agent, and still have him in a Grab when your next Phase comes up.

[David Blue]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

I would say an unconscious target is "willing".

 

Unconscious targets are easy to kill. Teleporting someone in a team context can have the same effect.

 

(Szybko teleports you to a hidden location behind an armoured wall or inside an armoured box where V.O.I.C.E. team-mates are waiting. They hack - many-on-one - till there's nothing left but a red mess on the ground. Rinse - literally - and repeat.)

 

There's no need to make it more expensive to kill a target with team tactics than it already is to do the job simply.

[Zed-F]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

If you have the ability to teleport the requisite amount of mass and can physically grab what you want to take, I'd say go for it. It's only aporting someone without going along for the ride yourself that requires UAA in my book.

 

As far as taking an extra phase for a non-combat teleport, that's easy. Teleport is actually much better at non-combat movement than any other form of movement because it doesn't have to abide by the acceleration rules. Even leaping technically has to abide by them, after a fashion, though leaping effectively gets rapid noncombat movement (normally a +1/4 advantage) for free. The fact that you don't move at all in the first phase is a balancing mechanism to counterbalance the fact that 5" tport x32 NCM takes only 2 phases total, instead of the 32 phases it would take flight to get up to its top speed.

[beauxdeigh]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

As far as taking an extra phase for a non-combat teleport' date=' that's easy. Teleport is actually much better at non-combat movement than any other form of movement because it doesn't have to abide by the acceleration rules. Even leaping technically has to abide by them, after a fashion, though leaping effectively gets rapid noncombat movement (normally a +1/4 advantage) for free. The fact that you don't move at all in the first phase is a balancing mechanism to counterbalance the fact that 5" tport x32 NCM takes only 2 phases total, instead of the 32 phases it would take flight to get up to its top speed.[/quote']

 

Now that I hadn't thought of, and it makes absolute perfect sense. Thank you, Zed-F. The extra phase stays.

[Mike W]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

I can kind of see that, but it's a rationalization. I don't see how the extra phase is an in game balance to, say, noncombat flight.

 

 

 

That doesn't hold up for me. Flying Strongman can do a lot of damage with his maneuvers, too, and the only defenses from being moved is DCV or being strong enough to break out of the Grab...which is what I'm suggesting for Teleport. In fact, good ol' F.S. can do even more damage because his maneuvers can gain damage due to velocity, unlike Teleporting Dark Avenger. Can I see an example of how a character with 23" of Teleport can do more damage to an opponent than a character with 23" of Flight?

 

 

That's one for voluntary unconscious people. I could argue that your teammate isn't able to willingly join you, due to their inability to comply (and have in fact heard such an argument in a D&D game where these kinds of loopholes abound) and as such is an involuntary target. I would probably rule as you, but that doesn't make it universal.

Well, Teleport allows you to bypass intervening space. You can, for instance, teleport back to your secret base without anyone being able to see where you went. If you have to fly in, there is a chance, however small, that someone might see you. So teleport does have certain advantages that flight does not, in a non-combat situation. I would also argue that sometimes you have to represent things accurately and if that makes one power slightly less effective than another, then so be it.

 

Well, whoever flying strongman hits also gets PD or ED. But more importantly,Flying Strongman has to use his CVs to hit. Whereas the teleporter can do a lot of things that the standard flying brick can't do without taking either more time(an extra phase) or needing to buy his STR up or some such thing. And remember that the move through comes with heavy penalties to OCV and DCV that using your teleport as an attack does not have to contend with. Using telport against others lets you grab the martial artist Flying Strongman can't hit and port him over a volcano, or into the path of a moving car with no real chance to dodge - or into the path of flying strongman's movethrough. Or put him somewhere that he can't get out(like teleporting him ontoa flagpole). Plus, no other movement power can be "given" to someone without buying usable by others or usable as an attack(the specific advantage defines who controls it). Why should teleport be different?

 

 

No, it isn't necessarily universal, but it fits in with the way most comic universes work, so I would argue that it should be the default. But if it's specifically written as a "GM's call" situation, I don't see where there is a problem.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

If you have the ability to teleport the requisite amount of mass and can physically grab what you want to take, I'd say go for it. It's only aporting someone without going along for the ride yourself that requires UAA in my book.

 

As far as taking an extra phase for a non-combat teleport, that's easy. Teleport is actually much better at non-combat movement than any other form of movement because it doesn't have to abide by the acceleration rules. Even leaping technically has to abide by them, after a fashion, though leaping effectively gets rapid noncombat movement (normally a +1/4 advantage) for free. The fact that you don't move at all in the first phase is a balancing mechanism to counterbalance the fact that 5" tport x32 NCM takes only 2 phases total, instead of the 32 phases it would take flight to get up to its top speed.

 

 

Yeah... this is it. The extra phase is the teleport version of Non-combat acceleration.

 

But it wouldn't be 32 phases... it would be on the sixth phase. First phase combat speed, second phase x2 non-com, third phase x4 non-com, fourth phase x8 non come, fifth phase x16 non-com, sixth phase now moving at x32 non-com.

 

At least that is how I handle it. I don't know if Fifth Revised has changed this. Essentially, each phase allows you to go to the next multiple of non-combat.

 

As for t-port... I've always assumed it was still STR vs. STR, not a touch attack for t-port... so you have to grab... hold on so that they don't break free... then teleport with them. If it was extra distance, then you'd have to hold on throughout the delay phase at zero DCV, before you could t-port. Not at all a problem in 24 years of playing this game to run it that way.

[Zed-F]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

IIRC according to the rules, without a +1/4 for rapid non-combat movement, you only accelerate your inches in combat speed every phase. You can double that if you're going with gravity, but halve it if you're fighting gravity.

 

Going from memory, with rapid non-combat movement (+1/4), your max non-combat acceleration is equal to your max non-combat velocity divided by your number of non-combat doublings plus one. So, if you only have one doubling, it's a waste to take rapid non-combat acceleration, but if you have 6" of running with x32 NCM (5 doublings) then it takes you only 6 phases instead of 32 to reach your max velocity, and you accelerate 32" per phase. That's sort of how you describe you handle NCM RDU, except the actual acceleration is linear rather than exponential.

[beauxdeigh]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

That doesn't hold up for me. Flying Strongman can do a lot of damage with his maneuvers' date=' too, and the only defenses from being moved is DCV or being strong enough to break out of the Grab...which is what I'm suggesting for Teleport. In fact, good ol' F.S. can do even more damage because his maneuvers can gain damage due to velocity, unlike Teleporting Dark Avenger. Can I see an example of how a character with 23" of Teleport can do more damage to an opponent than a character with 23" of Flight?[/quote']Well, whoever flying strongman hits also gets PD or ED.

 

I didn't know PD and ED defended you versus being Grabbed (the maneuver) and flown. Where does 5ER say this? If it does, then I would happily apply the same to someone being Grabbed and teleported.

 

But more importantly' date=' Flying Strongman has to use his CVs to hit.[/quote']

 

So does Teleporting Dark Avenger! In order to take someone with him, I'm proposing that he has to Grab the unwilling participant before being able to Teleport off with him, just like F.S. has to Grab an unwilling participant before he can fly off with him.

 

Whereas the teleporter can do a lot of things that the standard flying brick can't do without taking either more time(an extra phase) or needing to buy his STR up or some such thing.

 

The teleporter can do only one thing that a flyer cannot, move through barriers easily. The flyer can hover in space without falling, I think it's a fair trade. The STR issue has already been addressed.

 

And remember that the move through comes with heavy penalties to OCV and DCV that using your teleport as an attack does not have to contend with.

 

Move Through? Where did that come from? All I'm talking about is Flying Strongman and Teleporting Dark Avenger Grabbing people and moving them with their Movement powers. That's it. I'm asking why Teleport is different than Flight.

 

Using telport against others lets you grab the martial artist Flying Strongman can't hit and port him over a volcano' date=' or into the path of a moving car with no real chance to dodge - or into the path of flying strongman's movethrough. Or put him somewhere that he can't get out(like teleporting him ontoa flagpole).[/quote']

 

So it's perfectly alright for Flying Dark Avenger (new character here) to Grab people and Fly with them over to the volcano and drop them, or Fly with them into the path of a moving car, or into Flying Strongman's Move Through, or Fly with them up to the top of a flagpole, but it's not cool for Teleporting Dark Avenger to Teleport with them over a volcano, etc. and ad anuseum? What's up with that? I mean, the Teleporter is teleporting with the unwilling participant - just like flight the two are traveling together. The unwilling participant has equal opportunity to break out of the Teleporter's grip and escape as they do a Flyer. I'm not seeing a whole lot of advantage from the simple change in Movement powers, Mike.

 

Plus' date=' no other movement power can be "given" to someone without buying usable by others or usable as an attack(the specific advantage defines who controls it). Why should teleport be different?[/quote']

 

So, you're saying that Flying Strongman shouldn't be able to carry hapless thugs around without buying it Usable As Attack, because that's giving Flight to them, right? Because if that's what you are saying, I am now bat-shit confused.

 

My point is that, with the new rule that has been imposed in 5th edition, Teleport has become different than any other Movement power. Period. According to FREd and 5ER, you cannot Teleport someone with you involuntarily unless you purchase Usable As Attack (+1) on your Teleport, but everybody else and their mother with whatever other Movement power they have can involuntarily carry whoever they can hold with them all over the battle mat. That's a crock.

 

Here's the challenge Mike: Leaving volcanoes and chopper blades and all sorts of environmental stuff out of it, because I can easily construct environments where each type of character flourishes, tell me how requiring a Teleporter (A) to successfully perform a Grab maneuver on an opponent ( in order to then take ( with (A) when (A) teleports on (A)'s next phase is horribly unbalanced compared to a Flyer © doing the exact same thing.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

Going from memory, with rapid non-combat movement (+1/4), your max non-combat acceleration is equal to your max non-combat velocity divided by your number of non-combat doublings plus one.

 

No kidding?

 

No thanks... I'll stick with my rules. Easier that way.

 

(Coming from my players who just assumed if they said, "I'm going non-combat" that they were automatically at that rate... trying to even explain that you need to accelerate up to that rate was hard enough.)

[beauxdeigh]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

As for t-port... I've always assumed it was still STR vs. STR' date=' not a touch attack for t-port... so you have to grab... hold on so that they don't break free... then teleport with them. If it was extra distance, then you'd have to hold on throughout the delay phase at zero DCV, before you could t-port. Not at all a problem in 24 years of playing this game to run it that way.[/quote']

 

Thanks for backing it up with the claim of actual experience, Neil. I appreciate that. Dust Raven, I appreciate your support, as well. It makes me even more ready to take a black pen to my book to scratch out the offending sentence and pretend it never existed.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

Thanks for backing it up with the claim of actual experience' date=' Neil. I appreciate that. Dust Raven, I appreciate your support, as well. It makes me even more ready to take a black pen to my book to scratch out the offending sentence and pretend it never existed.[/quote']

 

 

There is plenty in 5th Edition where we'll look something up as we are playing, and someone will say, "Well, by the rules, it says..."

 

and we'll all listen, and often I say. "It says that, eh? Ok, then... forget that, we'll just keep doing it our way. Everyone ok with that? Alright... back to the game..."

 

I've made plenty of rulings "off the top of my head" over the years... and some agreed with the rules, and some didn't... and we just played with whichever one worked. I'm sure I've got a ton of "not quite kosher" rules that I don't even REALIZE are against the technical rules.

 

Doesn't mean the game doesn't work. Do what you want... it's your game. This is a toolkit system... that means it is to be changed at any point to make it work the way you want it to.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

If you have the ability to teleport the requisite amount of mass and can physically grab what you want to take, I'd say go for it. It's only aporting someone without going along for the ride yourself that requires UAA in my book.

 

As far as taking an extra phase for a non-combat teleport, that's easy. Teleport is actually much better at non-combat movement than any other form of movement because it doesn't have to abide by the acceleration rules. Even leaping technically has to abide by them, after a fashion, though leaping effectively gets rapid noncombat movement (normally a +1/4 advantage) for free. The fact that you don't move at all in the first phase is a balancing mechanism to counterbalance the fact that 5" tport x32 NCM takes only 2 phases total, instead of the 32 phases it would take flight to get up to its top speed.

 

That's an excellent point. FYI, it's 5 Phases to accelerate to x32. A Phase per doubling, not per multiple. Still, the Teleport is much quicker.

 

As far as needing to take an extra Phase, or being at noncombat CV for the duration, I'm perfectly okay with it. Each Movement Power works a little differently. Things like cost stay the same, but the little things like accelleration, Turn Move and rules for movement are all different for each one (kinda why we have several different ones I suppose). Leaping handles noncombat movement differently, requireing an extra phase for the duration of the leap for each noncombat doubling, but effectively achieves full velocity instantly. Gliding only goes across and down, and can only go up or stay up with an updraft, and only gains velocity when diving. All different. The extra Phase for Teleport us just one of the ways it' different.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

Thanks for backing it up with the claim of actual experience' date=' Neil. I appreciate that. Dust Raven, I appreciate your support, as well. It makes me even more ready to take a black pen to my book to scratch out the offending sentence and pretend it never existed.[/quote']

 

I'll be doing the same to mine once I have my own 5ER. I'm keeping track of the stuff I'm deleting. So far it's this, and the statement that HA is limited STR (which it can't be, or else you needn't buy HA and should just buy limited STR, and the fact that HA doesn't even act like STR and.... that's another thread).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

IIRC according to the rules, without a +1/4 for rapid non-combat movement, you only accelerate your inches in combat speed every phase. You can double that if you're going with gravity, but halve it if you're fighting gravity.

 

Going from memory, with rapid non-combat movement (+1/4), your max non-combat acceleration is equal to your max non-combat velocity divided by your number of non-combat doublings plus one. So, if you only have one doubling, it's a waste to take rapid non-combat acceleration, but if you have 6" of running with x32 NCM (5 doublings) then it takes you only 6 phases instead of 32 to reach your max velocity, and you accelerate 32" per phase. That's sort of how you describe you handle NCM RDU, except the actual acceleration is linear rather than exponential.

 

You know what, I'll have to double check that. It looks too familiar to me so it's probably something I just forgot. Damn... I'm feeling like one of those old-timer herophiles again.

[pinecone]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

Thanks for backing it up with the claim of actual experience' date=' Neil. I appreciate that. Dust Raven, I appreciate your support, as well. It makes me even more ready to take a black pen to my book to scratch out the offending sentence and pretend it never existed.[/quote']

I've always interperted that to mean If'n you grab someone and take them along your golden...if'n you want to grab/touch someone and shout "Be gone!" and have them "go away" Then you neen UAA 'cause you'd need the same for flight etc....thats just me though....I conside all rules as "optional" and "change to suit"...

[Mike W]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

I didn't know PD and ED defended you versus being Grabbed (the maneuver) and flown. Where does 5ER say this? If it does' date=' then I would happily apply the same to someone being [u']Grabbed and teleported[/u].

 

 

 

So does Teleporting Dark Avenger! In order to take someone with him, I'm proposing that he has to Grab the unwilling participant before being able to Teleport off with him, just like F.S. has to Grab an unwilling participant before he can fly off with him.

 

 

 

The teleporter can do only one thing that a flyer cannot, move through barriers easily. The flyer can hover in space without falling, I think it's a fair trade. The STR issue has already been addressed.

 

 

 

Move Through? Where did that come from? All I'm talking about is Flying Strongman and Teleporting Dark Avenger Grabbing people and moving them with their Movement powers. That's it. I'm asking why Teleport is different than Flight.

 

 

 

So it's perfectly alright for Flying Dark Avenger (new character here) to Grab people and Fly with them over to the volcano and drop them, or Fly with them into the path of a moving car, or into Flying Strongman's Move Through, or Fly with them up to the top of a flagpole, but it's not cool for Teleporting Dark Avenger to Teleport with them over a volcano, etc. and ad anuseum? What's up with that? I mean, the Teleporter is teleporting with the unwilling participant - just like flight the two are traveling together. The unwilling participant has equal opportunity to break out of the Teleporter's grip and escape as they do a Flyer. I'm not seeing a whole lot of advantage from the simple change in Movement powers, Mike.

 

 

 

So, you're saying that Flying Strongman shouldn't be able to carry hapless thugs around without buying it Usable As Attack, because that's giving Flight to them, right? Because if that's what you are saying, I am now bat-shit confused.

 

My point is that, with the new rule that has been imposed in 5th edition, Teleport has become different than any other Movement power. Period. According to FREd and 5ER, you cannot Teleport someone with you involuntarily unless you purchase Usable As Attack (+1) on your Teleport, but everybody else and their mother with whatever other Movement power they have can involuntarily carry whoever they can hold with them all over the battle mat. That's a crock.

 

Here's the challenge Mike: Leaving volcanoes and chopper blades and all sorts of environmental stuff out of it, because I can easily construct environments where each type of character flourishes, tell me how requiring a Teleporter (A) to successfully perform a Grab maneuver on an opponent ( in order to then take ( with (A) when (A) teleports on (A)'s next phase is horribly unbalanced compared to a Flyer © doing the exact same thing.

 

Okay, to start with. Forget everything you think I said earlier, because we were apparently talking at cross purposes. I didn't say a lot of the things you think I did, and I suspect that what you were saying wasn't quite the same as what I was reading. Now to answer the specific question you just posed:

 

As it stands, the teleporter does not have to make a grab maneuver to teleport an unwilling target...he gets full CVs(he only needs to TOUCH the character, not grab the character). Also, the targeted character gets ported ON THE SAME PHASE that he is touched, no contested STR roll to break out, no chance for a teammate to save him(unless said teammate has a held action, even then it is dubious). A "grab and fly" generally has more ways for the victim to break out than a "touch and teleport". The "grab and fly" requires an extra action because the grab roll ends Flying Brick Man's turn and the flying follows the attack. But Teleport, useable against others IS the attack, so the character moves as soon as the attack roll hits.

[beauxdeigh]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

I've always interperted that to mean If'n you grab someone and take them along your golden...

That's how it has always worked in the past, but that isn't what the text under Increased Mass on p234 of 5ER now reads.

 

if'n you want to grab/touch someone and shout "Be gone!" and have them "go away" Then you neen UAA 'cause you'd need the same for flight etc....thats just me though....

And I agree. If you are imposing a Movement power on an opponent unwillingly without being affected identically by the Movement power yourself, that is textbook UAA. Again, that isn't how the rule reads.

 

I conside all rules as "optional" and "change to suit"...

Well, yeah. When I'm the GM my goal is the fun of the players, not strict adherence to the rules.

 

However, this is the first time I've read one of the new rules in 5th and gone, "...the fuh?!" I was caught totally off guard, and I felt like I'd lost an point of INT just reading it. I hadn't seen it brought up anywhere here since FREd was published. I don't even know if TheEmerged had it on his excellent list of 4th to 5th changes. I was hoping that someone could give me a reason for the change, or at least attempt a viable rationalization, because I couldn't see one.

[beauxdeigh]

Teleportation, really that different? redeux

 

Okay' date=' to start with. Forget everything you think I said earlier, because we were apparently talking at cross purposes. I didn't say a lot of the things you think I did, and I suspect that what you were saying wasn't quite the same as what I was reading.[/quote']Done. I had hoped that was the case.

 

Now to answer the specific question you just posed:

 

As it stands, the teleporter does not have to make a grab maneuver to teleport an unwilling target...he gets full CVs(he only needs to TOUCH the character, not grab the character). Also, the targeted character gets ported ON THE SAME PHASE that he is touched, no contested STR roll to break out, no chance for a teammate to save him(unless said teammate has a held action, even then it is dubious). A "grab and fly" generally has more ways for the victim to break out than a "touch and teleport". The "grab and fly" requires an extra action because the grab roll ends Flying Brick Man's turn and the flying follows the attack. But Teleport, useable against others IS the attack, so the character moves as soon as the attack roll hits.

Yes, that is how it works according to the 5ER rules, and if, in fact, a player wanted their character to have the ability to reach out and touch someone casually and teleport away with them, no matter how they felt about it, I would consider that a valid use of the UAA Advantage. I have, in fact, written as much previously:

 

 

I have a crazy idea. How about a rule that says moving someone involuntarily with Teleport has the same requirements as moving someone involuntarily with any other movement power: You have to Grab them first. If you want to do it by touch, then you need the Advantage, as that would be seriously advantageous. Otherwise, Teleport is a Movement power, and should be kept in line with other Movement powers as much as possible.

 

underline added for emphasis

The Advantage makes sense if you are just touching as a Zero Phase Action and teleporting your target (and possibly yourself) away. That's using Teleport as an attack and is textbook UAA.

 

However, when I capitalized Grab in the quoted paragraph it wasn't because I have a penchant for random capitalization. I was referencing the attack maneuver Grab. The point I was trying to make was that if I build a character with 23" of Flight, they can successfully perform a Grab on someone and, willing or not, carry them along on their next Phase, but my friend's character with 23" of Teleport is unable to do that without an Advantage. Which is utter bunk, and thus far has not been supported by anyone as being the least bit balanced.

 

Grab is the attack. Teleport is just movement, and it should be allowed to work just like all the other Movement powers.

 

Was that better?

[Mike W]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

The book is actually slightly unclear on this. As you pointed out, under Increased Mass, it says that the target must be willing, but the generic text does not specifically say that(though it does refer you to the Increased Mass adder).

 

I think that the reason Teleport operates under different rules is that a person's body is affected differently. With flight, if I grab someone and then take off, the normal rules of physics apply. But if I try to teleport someone, I have to, say, take apart their body and then reassemble it somewhere else. Teleport being an actual Power, requires you to do much more than just "hang onto them" - so it is treated as if it was an AVLD vs. power defense. So, if you reason from special effect, it makes sense why you would need to buy UAA, even though it isn't perfectly balanced. And since Teleport moves you "invisbly" and does not require you to plot a specific course through the various battlefield traffic, I'd say it balances a bit better than it first appears. After all, if I grab someone and then try to fly off with them, everyone knows which way I went and I may provoke attacks of opportunities when I take off. With teleport, I could grab someone and port into a building down the street with no one having any idea what direction I went, then port again and again - and no one could track me because they would never see which direction I went. Since the teleport essentially has "invisible power effects" built into it, particularly if you are clever about porting, the UAA requirement helps to balance this out.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

The "invisible" movement shouldn't be an issue. That little bonus of Teleportation is made up by the "invisible location" drawback. You can't see your location until you arrive (I know, you can teleport to someplace LOS, but you don't have a point of perception there until you get there).

 

In any case, I don't recall reading anywhere that you can just "touch and go" with teleporting someone else. That doesn't seem to make any sense. Nothing else in the game works like that. Touching an unwilliing person is an attack, and counts as such in combat. Otherwise I could buy a Damage Shield that applied if any contact is made (just an extra +1/4) and then do damage automatically to everyone in HTH range just buy saying I touched them, and then I can make an attack. The game doesn't work that way, so I don't see what the problem would be with Teleport. You'd still have to make an attack roll and you'd still have to wait until your next Phase, during which time the target could simply walk away. Where in the rules (any Hero rules, 5ER or otherwise) does it say differently?

[Mike W]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

In Fred, the description for the increased mass adder says "the character does not have to be able to carry this additional mass; he only has to touch it " It then states that you need UAA to target another person. NOWHERE does it say you need an actual grab. Only a standard hit roll. And the wording would imply that even if you were willing to do away with the "must have UAA" for teleporters who were willing to go with the target, they still wouldn't need an actual grab maneuver, just a normal "strike" maneuver, which means that they wouldn't have to take the -1 OCV and -2 DCV penalties that a character making a Grab roll would have to take.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Teleportation, really that different?

 

But does it say anywhere that it happens on the same Phase the attack roll is made? Almost always (only exception I can think of is a Leap), once you make an attack roll, your Phase is over. Following that logic, all the target would have to do is walk away to negate the touch. Sure, you don't have to Grab the target, but it sure helps keep them from wanding away while you're getting ready to teleport.