Disgust of wind...(defining the cost of sfx)

[Sean Waters]

OK, you have wind powers (SETTLE DOWN AT THE BACK, IT ISN'T FUNNY!), and you use this gust of wind as your main attack. It is basically an area effect double KB EB. Fair enough.

 

Now Gas Master (LOOK, IT ISN'T FUNNY!) unleashes his deadly air-borne toxic cloud, and you attack you, The Windy Warrior (OH, I DESPAIR) hit him with your gust of wind.

 

Now it is logical that you should disperse his gas cloud, but being an unimaginative lummox, he hasn't bought that particular limitation.

 

What do you do?

 

You can either apply common sense (the gas is dispersed, or at least spread around a bit) or you can simply say Gas Master goes flying but his cloud is unaffected. One offends against the points system, the other against common sense.

 

The solution? Well ONE solution would be to up the ante re sfx. In effect, you say that sfx trump powers, so long as it is logical in context and doesn't unduly upset anyone. The other way to do it would be to say that powers trump sfx, and the gas damn well stays were it is, presumably because Gas Master can immobilise gas (so why does the gust of wind work then?). Oh, and I know I said 'trump'

 

The first is a charter for munchkinism but is probably the best 'role playing' solution, the second is a charter for rulelawyerism but is probably better for 'balance'.

 

Here's an idea...an anathema to HERO, in all likelyhood, create a new tome: The Ultimate SFX. I mean, it is a long time in coming, but it could, potentially, be quite useful. It would define a range of sfx that you can allow in your campaign (you can always add more if you are a sucker for punishment), and gives some idea of the advantages and limitations of using specific sfx. In fact you might find that some sfx are worth an advantage or a limitation as they are more or less flexible than others.

 

We talk a lot about sfx, but in a system that has a points cost for everything, they remain extremely nebulous and ill-defined. I mean, it is all very well saying 'reason from effects' but some people are better at reason that others, neh?

 

Thoughts, anyone?

[OddHat]

Re: Disgust of wind...(defining the cost of sfx)

 

Over-thinking things like this means that you're not spending enough time out in the bright, healthy sunshine. Call a nice girl (or boy, if that's your fancy), ask her out for a coffee, have a walk afterwards and try to enjoy the day.

 

(I'd just say that's how sfx works, like it or lump it, but then I'm spending too much time indoors as well).

[Agent333]

Re: Disgust of wind...(defining the cost of sfx)

 

Yikes! I've been splitting this hair all morning! I've got to say that the common sense wins out IMO. But then, I never knew my TK needed "Affects Pourous" until I got the USPD. I guess my wind-based TK never would have moved that gas-cloud either. But, if you use common sense, then the Jean Grey psychic TK gets hosed compared to the Storm wind-based TK in certain circumstances. To move the gas cloud away, Jean would have to have the affects porous adder and maybe even a AE advantage. But then, Jean would get to do cool stuff like lift a 1/2 ton of molten lava (courtesy of Magma) and drop it on toad.

 

"Do you know what happens to a toad when it's drowned in 1000 pounds of liquid hot...?"

 

"Shut up and kill me already."

[tesuji]

Re: Disgust of wind...(defining the cost of sfx)

 

Thing is, I can recall seeing lims such as "not in windy conditions -1/4" frequently in the official writeups of things like gas powers... and i don't own a majority of the 5e books.

 

Especially if the poison cloud guy is an NPC, this should be a case of the Gm "requiring" reasonable sfx related lims to be bought.

 

Now, for an NPC, its a cinch for the Gm to, even if he pointed out mr bad guy in full detail, tag that "i forgot" lim on ad hoc during play. heck, matter of fact, if it were me, mr poison gas cloud guy would be a villain i specifically added SO THAT my gustowind could see his sfx matter. The interaction between those two would be a PLANNED THING, not a lucky accident.

 

If a PC took the cloud's "not windy" lim, then he would see a number of smaller issues now and again and the occasional "windy bad guy" who foils his "not windy" power to make the lim show itself appropriately often.

 

this one doesn't appear to be one that sneaks up on you.

[OddHat]

Re: Disgust of wind...(defining the cost of sfx)

 

Yikes! I've been splitting this hair all morning! I've got to say that the common sense wins out IMO. But then' date=' I never knew my TK needed "Affects Pourous" until I got the USPD. I guess my wind-based TK never would have moved that gas-cloud either. But, if you use common sense, then the Jean Grey psychic TK gets hosed compared to the Storm wind-based TK in certain circumstances. To move the gas cloud away, Jean would have to have the affects porous adder and maybe even a AE advantage. But then, Jean would get to do cool stuff like lift a 1/2 ton of molten lava (courtesy of Magma) and drop it on toad.[/quote']

 

SFX, if used with game affecting results, will always have minor benefits and drawbacks. I try to adjucate these fairly, treating some more significant SFX uses as power stunts, but ultimately I'm telling a story much more than playing a war game. If you want game mechanics spelled out for every single possible SFX, it will take you frickin' forever, something will always be missed, and in the end it won't (IMO) add much play value at all.

 

As Sean said:

End of the day, this is a generic system, and doesn't model individual casses brilliantly. You CAN do it, but it is far too much work for me...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Disgust of wind...(defining the cost of sfx)

 

Over-thinking things like this means that you're not spending enough time out in the bright, healthy sunshine. Call a nice girl (or boy, if that's your fancy), ask her out for a coffee, have a walk afterwards and try to enjoy the day.

 

(I'd just say that's how sfx works, like it or lump it, but then I'm spending too much time indoors as well).

 

Listen up, children, best advice you'll see on these boards today!

 

....now back to the overthinking....

[Guest C--]

Re: Disgust of wind...(defining the cost of sfx)

 

It depends on Gas Lad's sfx. I could see a cloud of mystic evil gas that travels wherever it's creator wills it, regardless of wind.

 

"That fog bank is coming right for us. We've got to get out of here."

"So? It's just a stupid fog bank."

"It's travelling into the wind."

 

So when you hit Gas Lad with your wind blast, the GM should decide if this is evil intelligent gas, or just regular old gas.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Disgust of wind...(defining the cost of sfx)

 

Well, often a gas-based attack will be NND, Constant, etc., in which case there are certain ways to turn it off or make it ineffective. In that case I have few qualms about going by common sense (even if the effect being used doesn't exactly match the weakness spelled out by the Power). But if this isn't the case (say the gas attack is just an instant EB), I think countering it should be a little more tricky. For example, the wind Power might be used for such a purpose, but it might require careful timing, concentrated effort, Knowledges or other appropriate Skills (I'm big on allowing Skills to help out in combat ), etc.

 

I might even allow the Block rules to be used between the attacks. The circumstances might dictate that the wind Power (especially if it is Constant or something) makes the gas attack more difficult (OCV penalties) or impossible if used from one angle (downwind), but if the attacker can maneuver effectively and take advantage, it might actually aid him/her (moving upwind might negate the use of the wind Power, or even take advantage of it enough to give the attack an OCV bonus!).

 

Those are my ideas on the specific example given. In general, I would agree that SFX can have some effects in game along similar lines. Common sense and game balance both play in in my book.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Disgust of wind...(defining the cost of sfx)

 

I have yet to see a gas SFX that wasn't either Instant (the gas disperses within seconds of use), Uncontrolled (usually through continuing charges, representing a cloud of gas that takes a moment to disperse) or Constant/Continuous (a field of gas that would disperse in seconds, but is being constantly fed with new gas). That's it. It's one of these or it's not really gas.

 

For the Instant effects, well, they end themselves. Not much to do against those. I suppose you could theoretically use a wind based attack to knock a gas attack out of the sky, and if the wind warrior had a held action to try I might let him. Otherwise, I'd be expecting him to by Dispel. For the Constant/Continuous effects, nice try blowing them away. At best you'd just increase the area, but mostly likely not have any affect at all. Now for the Uncontrolled, such Powers must have a condition/effect that turns them off, and in the case of gas powers, it almost always includes high winds.

 

So, I really don't see how this would ever be an issue.

[Fox1]

Re: Disgust of wind...(defining the cost of sfx)

 

For the Constant/Continuous effects' date=' nice try blowing them away. At best you'd just increase the area, but mostly likely not have any affect at all. [/quote']

 

One would assume that such 'gases' are under the direct control of the owners, i.e. you try to blow it but it reforms despite your best effort.

 

The owner could of course have bought a limit saying otherwise...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Disgust of wind...(defining the cost of sfx)

 

One would assume that such 'gases' are under the direct control of the owners, i.e. you try to blow it but it reforms despite your best effort.

 

The owner could of course have bought a limit saying otherwise...

 

True, I'm just saying what I've seen in use and in the source material. I suppose there are a few "gas" like effects like magic smoke or whatever, but I don't really consider those gasses, because they don't act like gas, just look like gas.

[OddHat]

Re: Disgust of wind...(defining the cost of sfx)

 

True' date=' I'm just saying what I've seen in use and in the source material. I suppose there are a few "gas" like effects like magic smoke or whatever, but I don't really consider those gasses, because they don't act like gas, just look like gas.[/quote']

 

In one of my campaigns, I'd rule that this is a clear case of the minor advantages and limits that any special effect might carry, with no point value. If a gadgeteer in one of my campaigns designed a continuous Darkness effect defined as a Smoke Grenade, then that smoke can be blown away by a high wind, and I would not give him points back for it. Yes, it's a limit that might somehow affect game play; it's not worth -1/4, and Hero doesn't go any lower. If it ever did come up, I might make a point of finding some way to reward the player later by allowing his special effects to come in handy, or not. If you tried to simulate every single tiny advantage or limit a special effect might bring, you'd end up printing out 45 lines per power (Flame Bolt, May be used to light small fires, may be used to provide heat, may be used to provide a little bit of light, may be used to cook food, very slightly reduced power in a heavy rain storm, slightly less accurate if used in high winds, etc...).

 

My campaigns are not pure mathematical exercises; they're stories. If a player can't deal with that, he's welcome to go design a 200 point spoon.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Disgust of wind...(defining the cost of sfx)

 

If a player can't deal with that' date=' he's welcome to go design a 200 point spoon.[/quote']

Hey! That spoon could dish out some major mashed potatoes! Don't dis it!