Can I use independent here?

[Guyon]

I have a magic sword that has powers and beefs my character up. I bought it as a Obvious Accessible focus. No questions so far

 

One of the guys suggested if I want to make it cheaper I can add independent. In that case if someone captured it they could use it to it's fullest extent, otherwise it is only a sword to others as is.

 

True?

[Fox1]

Re: Can I use independent here?

 

I have a magic sword that has powers and beefs my character up. I bought it as a Obvious Accessible focus. No questions so far

 

One of the guys suggested if I want to make it cheaper I can add independent. In that case if someone captured it they could use it to it's fullest extent, otherwise it is only a sword to others as is.

 

True?

 

No.

 

If the weapon is defined as a universal focus, anyone can use it to its full extent (STR Min and other limits/advantages permitting).

 

Independant means that if you loan it out or lose it, the GM is well within his rights to never give it back to you. Some GMs (such as myself) consider it a requirement that the item is lost or destroyed at some point in order to justify the rather huge price break received.

 

Note you lose the points with the item.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Can I use independent here?

 

If the sword is Independent, then whoever picks it up has full access to whatever it can do. As it is now, if anyone else got it, they couldn't use it the same way you do.

 

The danger of Independent is that, if you've spent points on it, if your character loses the sword, there go the points. It's highly unlikely you'll ever get it back. In fact, it's your GM's job to see to it that the sword is taken from you and never returned, just as it's your GM's job to use all your other disadvantages.

 

(edit: or, what Fox1 said.)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can I use independent here?

 

Probably wouldn't allow it in a supers campaign, but otherwise fine.

 

Independent DOES make things cheap: the trade off is that if the thing is lost or destroyed, you've lost the character points or at very least have to toil long and hard to replace them (i.e. spend more XP!). It isn't FOCUS by any other name - that allows rapid replacement of lost or damaged items.

 

Other than that, it's up to you, really

[Fox1]

Re: Can I use independent here?

 

It isn't FOCUS by any other name - that allows rapid replacement of lost or damaged items.

 

It's important to note that Interpendent does not in itself imply focus, they are too different limits and ones that must be enforced on their own terms.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can I use independent here?

 

Unlike the noble posters above, I, as a GM would not see it as incumbent upon my duties to actually take away/destroy the item, but I would most certainly have you live every waking moment with that fear.

 

Well, not every waking moment: there are other limitations and disadvantages I have to fit in somewhere...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can I use independent here?

 

It's important to note that Interpendent does not in itself imply focus' date=' they are too different limits and ones that must be enforced on their own terms.[/quote']

 

All very right and proper. Well done.

[Guyon]

Re: Can I use independent here?

 

I think I got it...

Since it is an Obvious accessible focus, anyone that gets there hands on it, can use all it's powers?

 

but...

If bad guys can use your OAF if they take it away why can you loan it to a friend to use?

 

I am not sure of the subtleties of the difference between OAF and independent. Why have both if they can not be both used at the same time? Please explain the differnces better.

Thanks

[Guest C--]

Re: Can I use independent here?

 

A universal focus allows everyone to use it. It's like a gun. Everybody can pick it up, point it at something, and put a hole in it.

 

A personal focus is just something that you can use. It's like a specially sized penis ring. It only fits you. Your friends can try it on, but it won't quite fit right. It's useless to them.

 

The thing with a focus is that, even if it's destroyed, you'll get it back. It's part of your "schtick". Batman will always get his utility belt back. It's his thing. Captain America will always get his shield back, even if it might take a story arc. He'll just always end up with it at the end of the day, even though it's the only one in existence. If you have a magic sword, and you only put "focus" on it, then you'll always end up with it after the adventure.

 

Independant is different. Independant means that your magic sword is the same as a magic sword in a D&D game. If you lose it, or somebody steals it, then you don't get it back. With Independant, possession is 10/10ths of the law. I steal your +5 Katana of Mortal Severing, and it becomes my +5 Katana of Mortal Severing. I don't care that your character spent 30 points on the sword. Those are now my 30 points.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can I use independent here?

 

You could have (say) an independent power placed on you, rather than being contained in an object - say you are granted +10 pd and it is made independent (-2 for a total of 3 character points). You always have that extra 10pd until someone hits you with a dispel pd in which case it goes away forever and you've lost your 3cp.

 

Something that is independent can not necessarily be stolen (as in the above example) but can always be taken away or destroyed.

 

There's an argument for making bases independent, for example. They can be used by anyone or destroyed and only replaced by massive effort (XP). For some concepts that could work really well (say the new hero who stumbles across the base of an old supergroup - could never have afforded it himself and couldn't replace it is it was destroyed, but gets to use it in the meantime)

 

Any clearer?

[Guest C--]

Re: Can I use independent here?

 

I think I got it...

Since it is an Obvious accessible focus, anyone that gets there hands on it, can use all it's powers?

 

but...

If bad guys can use your OAF if they take it away why can you loan it to a friend to use?

 

I am not sure of the subtleties of the difference between OAF and independent. Why have both if they can not be both used at the same time? Please explain the differnces better.

Thanks

 

They can both be used at the same time. Independant just makes the consequences of losing your item much, much worse.

 

If you lose your magic sword, and you just bought it OAF, then, after the adventure is over, somehow, someway, you'll get your sword back. In Secret Wars, Captain America had his one-of-a-kind shield destroyed. At the end of the story, he used the magic wishing powers that had been released when Dr Doom was defeated to bring his shield back together. So he had his shield back. Years later, Cap's shield was destroyed again. This time it took him much longer to get the shield back, but, in the meantime, he got a replacement energy shield.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can I use independent here?

 

A universal focus allows everyone to use it. It's like a gun. Everybody can pick it up, point it at something, and put a hole in it.

 

A personal focus is just something that you can use. It's like a specially sized penis ring. It only fits you. Your friends can try it on, but it won't quite fit right. It's useless to them.

 

The thing with a focus is that, even if it's destroyed, you'll get it back. It's part of your "schtick". Batman will always get his utility belt back. It's his thing. Captain America will always get his shield back, even if it might take a story arc. He'll just always end up with it at the end of the day, even though it's the only one in existence. If you have a magic sword, and you only put "focus" on it, then you'll always end up with it after the adventure.

 

Independant is different. Independant means that your magic sword is the same as a magic sword in a D&D game. If you lose it, or somebody steals it, then you don't get it back. With Independant, possession is 10/10ths of the law. I steal your +5 Katana of Mortal Severing, and it becomes my +5 Katana of Mortal Severing. I don't care that your character spent 30 points on the sword. Those are now my 30 points.

 

You must have some real interesting games. I never want to have to search one of your characters for hidden or concealed items items.....

[Guyon]

Re: Can I use independent here?

 

*Removed*

see following post

[Guyon]

Re: Can I use independent here?

 

REWIND!!!!!

My initial statement was my OAF magic sword gave me special abilities that no once else could use except as a normal sword. But you guys said it could be used to it's fullest extent by a villain that captured it.

 

This is right form the rules:

The first way is to say the magic wand is only a Focus, so the wizard takes the Focus Limitation. The wand is just a stick to anyone else,

because it’s the wizard who knows how to cast the Energy Blast; he just needs to have this wand handy to help him throw the Power. If the wand is taken or broken, then the wizard can’t throw the Power again until he finds the wand or makes a new one. As is explained in the Focus Limitation,

making a new wand doesn’t cost any more Character Points on the part of the wizard.

So would not my OAF magic sword be aligned to me, and be a normal sword to anyone else? So I could replace it with work.

 

Or if I bought it as independent, then it could not be replaced and everyone could use it and all of it's powers?

 

This should mean that you can not buy both.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Can I use independent here?

 

OK I guess my confusion was, I though if a focus was stolen you have to find some way to get it back. It just did not appear back at the end of the scenario.

 

though I do now understand that once a independent item/power is stolen or destroyed you probably never see it again.

It doesn't just "appear" back. You have to make an effort to recover it. The difference is, the character must be allowed to recover it in some fashion, though it may take a while (an entire story arc, if warranted) to get it back.

 

In some cases, "recovering" it might mean building a new one. (If Tony Stark's Iron Man armor were stolen, he'd build a new suit, or get the "backup" one out of storage.)

 

In some cases, "recovering" it might mean going on a mission or quest to get it back.

 

But in all cases, some effort must be made to recover the item. It just doesn't automatically, "magically" reappear at the end of the adventure.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Can I use independent here?

 

REWIND!!!!!

My initial statement was my OAF magic sword gave me special abilities that no once else could use except as a normal sword. But you guys said it could be used to it's fullest extent by a villain that captured it.

 

This is right form the rules:

 

So would not my magic sword be aligned to me, and be a normal sword to anyone else? So I could replace it with work.

 

And if I bought it as independent, then it could not be replaced and everyone could use it and all of it's powers.

The difference is in the definition of either Universal or Personal Focus.

 

As C-- said, if it's a Universal Focus, anyone can use it. If it's a Personal Focus, only you can use it. The example you quoted from the "Independent" text was assuming a personal focus.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Can I use independent here?

 

A Focus can also be defined as Universal or Personal. A Universal Focus can be used by anyone; the power is in the Focus. That's, for instance, a blaster. A Personal Focus can only be used by the owner; that's the wand the wizard uses to cast his spell with. It's his spell, the power comes from him, and if anyone takes the wand it's just a stick.

 

I believe (but am not at all certain) that an Independent Focus also has to be Universal. Does it say so in the book?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Can I use independent here?

 

Independent means:

 

* The Power is not connected to the guy who bought it.

 

* You lose the points.

[sbarron]

Re: Can I use independent here?

 

OK I guess my confusion was' date=' I though if a focus was stolen you have to find some way to get it back. It just did not appear back at the end of the scenario.[/quote']Depending on the focus, you very well might have to find some way to get it back. Cap's shield is an example of this. As there is only one, he has to go get it back somehow. The GM will let him get it back eventually though, since he didn't take independent on it, just OAF (maybe OIF).

 

Batman's batarang is different. If Bats throws his batarang out of a plane and it ends up in the ocean, he doesn't have to go find it to get it back. He just needs to go back to his cave and get another one. The GM will let him pick up another one, again as he didn't buy it independent, just OAF.

 

Don't think so much of these "focuses" as being actual objects. The are just the means by which a characters power manifests themselves. Cap will always have his shield, even though he can lose it temporarily. Batman can always make more batarangs, even though he may occasionally run out. Focus rules just mean that occasionally the character will be without the power, because the power is used through a focus which can be taken away. The power, however, cannot be taken away permanently.

 

Once you buy independent on a power, then it can be taken away permanentaly. Which is why in Champions games, most smart players don't use independent, and most GMs don't allow it.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Can I use independent here?

 

Or if I bought it as independent, then it could not be replaced and everyone could use it and all of it's powers?

 

This should mean that you can not buy both.

 

If you want to buy special powers that you can use through the sword, you can do that, but you shouldn't buy the powers as Independent.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can I use independent here?

 

Hmm. Independent does not necessarily imply an object: a power can be independent without an object. If it is independent AND an object then it can be a focus as well and it can be unique and unusable by others (or at least partially so). the best example I can think of is The One Ring: clearly not just a focus as Sauron never gets it back, but with all the attributes of a unique indestructable focus. No one can use all of its powers but him.

 

Losing an independent power means you lose a bit of yourself.

[Guyon]

Re: Can I use independent here?

 

Chris, You are thinking of the Applicability term under focus. Which says:

The last thing a character has to decide about the Focus

is its Applicability — in other words, can only he use it, or can

anyone use it? Either way, the cost is identical since there

are advantages and disadvantages for both.

So I can buy my Magic sword focus and no one else can use it's specal powers, if I keep it as a focus.

[Guyon]

Re: Can I use independent here?

 

TOTAL REWIND:

I can buy my sword as both a focus and Independent Power. In this case if I lose it someone else can use it to it's fullest extent. And I have to buy a new one. So I believe the guy in our group is totally correct in the origin of this question.

 

The other way to buy this wand is as a Power with a focus and with the Independent Limitation. If the wand is Independent, it means that the ability to throw Energy Blasts is part of the wand, not the wizard. Anyone who picks up the wand, should the wizard lose it, can use it to throw Energy

Blasts. The wizard can’t use the Power again unless he finds the wand or makes a new one.

Goes to show me that re-reading the rules is a must every so often.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Can I use independent here?

 

I think you could also buy a Personal Focus that is Independent. It would mean no one else could use it like you do, but you can still lose it permenantly. To everyone else it may just be a sword, but once again it is now their sword.

 

I have personally decided to never again (or at least very, very rarely) allow Independent in superheroic games. FYI this is because I played in a rotating GM supers game in which one of the characters bought all of his Powers except for some Skill Levels in a power suit with the Focus and Independent Limitations. When I was GM, I made the plot revolve around his losing his suit (which I could perfectly well have done were it just a Focus), but found in the end that there was no way I could really take it away from him. I just don't have the heart to make a character permenently drop from a powerful super to a moderate hero.

 

I reserve Independent for applications such as creating permenant magical (or psionic, or whatever) items in heroic games, where you normally don't spend character points on equipment at all [EDIT: (and equipment generally doesn't belog to anyone except through possession and social grace anyway)].

[archermoo]

Re: Can I use independent here?

 

I think you could also buy a Personal Focus that is Independent. It would mean no one else could use it like you do' date=' but [i']you can still lose it permenantly[/i]. To everyone else it may just be a sword, but once again it is now their sword.

 

Actually not. 5ER, P297 "Independant powers are normally items (i.e., they're built with the Focus Limitation; the Focus must be Universal).

 

It also states elsewhere in the text several times that the power is in no way tied to the character, and that anyone else can use it.