A new idea for how to handle VPP's

[Dust Raven]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

Let's say you have a 150 point pool and spend 5 points on a control cost. You can buy a whole slew of 10 active point powers (15 unlimited ones, 30 with -1 limitations on each, etc.). Is that worth a lot more than 160 points?

 

Consider that you could have purchased a Multipower with a 60 point pool and 95 Ultra slots for the same price (and been able to switch freely as a zero phase action, using 6 powers at any given time).

 

Is this really a lot more powerful?

 

Another example: 100 VPP with a 5 control cost, cosmic, for a total of 115 points. Now you can have 100 points worth of 10 point powers, and can change those 100 points freely as a 0 Phase action to be whatever you needed them to be at any given time. That seems like a huge advantage for only 15 points.

[prestidigitator]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

Another example: 100 VPP with a 5 control cost' date=' cosmic, for a total of 115 points. Now you can have 100 points worth of 10 point powers, and can change those 100 points freely as a 0 Phase action to be whatever you needed them to be at any given time. That seems like a huge advantage for only 15 points.[/quote']

Yeah. That's the corollary of what I was saying about a Limitation, and it is a lot more scary. I'm glad someone was able to come up with a better example.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

Another example: 100 VPP with a 5 control cost' date=' cosmic, for a total of 115 points. Now you can have 100 points worth of 10 point powers, and can change those 100 points freely as a 0 Phase action to be whatever you needed them to be at any given time. That seems like a huge advantage for only 15 points.[/quote']

 

Perhaps these advantages (Reduced Time and No Roll) would be best be halved and applied directly to the pool itself. Thus, the cost for the pool above changes from 115 to 205 [Pool - 100 points; Control Cost - 5 points; No Time to Change - 1/2 Pool = 50; no roll to change - 1/2 Pool = 50]

 

Taking this one step further, perhaps these advantages could be figured similarly to the control cost:

 

(a) Reduced time to change: The character may change a number of active points in the pool as a half phase action. The cost is 1/4 of the maximum Active Points which may be changed in any one phase in this fashion.

 

( No time to change: The character may change a number of active points in the pool as a zero phase action. The cost is 1/2 of the maximum Active Points which may be changed in any one phase in this fashion.

 

© No Skill Roll Required: The character may change a number of active points in the pool with no skill roll. The cost is 1/2 of the maximum Active Points which may be changed in any one phase with no roll. The character may change points exceeding this limit, but must make a skill roll modified by the Active Points in excess of his points which can be changed with no skill roll.

 

Note that this would actually mean a higher point cost if you want to be able to change Active points in excess of Real Points (for example, two powers, each at the pool's AP maximum and each with -1 limitations).

 

This would make VPP's more granular in all respects,

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

Consider that you could have purchased a Multipower with a 60 point pool and 95 Ultra slots for the same price (and been able to switch freely as a zero phase action' date=' using 6 powers at any given time).[/quote']

 

I really like it when people consider the real-world alternatives when considering the potential abuse of hypothetical powers. My position is that if you could have bought a more effective power for the same number of points, (and this is clearly one of those cases) I am not going to waste game time arguing whether it's theoretically "appropriate" or "legal" to buy a power in an unusual fashion. Comparing this hypothetical 100/5 Power Pool with an official Multipower makes the case for permitting it pretty self-evident.

 

That reminds me of something I have been meaning to ask, and this thread is as good a place as any. I seem to recall seeing somewhere that there were limits (of the "with GM approval" variety) on putting certain Powers in Multipowers and Power Pools (Stop Sign powers, for example). I can't seem to find this in the H5R book, though. Does this sound familiar to anyone? If so, do you have a page reference, please?

[prestidigitator]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

Perhaps these advantages (Reduced Time and No Roll) would be best be halved and applied directly to the pool itself. Thus' date=' the cost for the pool above changes from 115 to 205 [Pool - 100 points; Control Cost - 5 points; No Time to Change - 1/2 Pool = 50; no roll to change - 1/2 Pool = 50']

 

Taking this one step further, perhaps these advantages could be figured similarly to the control cost:

 

(a) Reduced time to change: The character may change a number of active points in the pool as a half phase action. The cost is 1/4 of the maximum Active Points which may be changed in any one phase in this fashion.

 

( No time to change: The character may change a number of active points in the pool as a zero phase action. The cost is 1/2 of the maximum Active Points which may be changed in any one phase in this fashion.

 

© No Skill Roll Required: The character may change a number of active points in the pool with no skill roll. The cost is 1/2 of the maximum Active Points which may be changed in any one phase with no roll. The character may change points exceeding this limit, but must make a skill roll modified by the Active Points in excess of his points which can be changed with no skill roll.

 

Note that this would actually mean a higher point cost if you want to be able to change Active points in excess of Real Points (for example, two powers, each at the pool's AP maximum and each with -1 limitations).

 

This would make VPP's more granular in all respects,

Huh. Yeah. Or, if you want it simpler, make them Adders rather than Advantages.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

Huh. Yeah. Or' date=' if you want it simpler, make them Adders rather than Advantages.[/quote']

 

I think that the current method, making them Advantages applied to the Control Cost, is already very well point-balanced with the most similar mechanic in the game, Multipowers. While I am sure that it is possible to re-balance the game by making them Advantages on the Pool Cost (by cutting them in half, most likely), I do not think it would be possible to re-balance them if they were Adders.

 

By their very nature, Adders do not scale. This means that, no matter what value is selected for the cost of the Adders, it will have a chilling effect on Power Pools below a certain size, while Power Pools above a certain size will become increasingly attractive.

 

I don't think that's a good idea.

 

Personally, I do not see any reason to change these Power Pool-specific Advantages pertaining to skill rolls and the amount of time it takes to change the Pool. They work fine now, are well balanced, and are thoroughly playtested.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

Huh. Yeah. Or' date=' if you want it simpler, make them Adders rather than Advantages.[/quote']

 

I think these work best as advantages. 20 points, for example, would be far too much for being able to change a 15 point pool with no skill roll, but far too little to be able to modify a 150 point pool with no roll.

[prestidigitator]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

I don't know. Even for very small pools, being able to instantly change Powers is a very Powerful thing. It gives you amazing versatility within that Power range. You have the ultimate swiss army knife: not just an awl, screwdriver, corkscrew, bottle opener, tweezers, toothpick and scissors, but flashlight, laser pointer, bean dip, shoe polish, and an infinite number of other Nifty Things . Not only that, but you have them immediately available in all situations.

 

I'm not saying it should be the default, but it could be a good optional choice for those who want to make things simple. This kind of approach has been suggested by others in the past (not only for VPPs, but for MPs as well). I'm not sure I would like it for the system in general, but I think it could have its place and be balanced.

 

As for playtesting, I have to laugh at that. Just about every character with even a small VPP I have ever had in a game (either playing myself, as a teammate, or in a group I have GMed) has had the potential to overshadow everyone else. It is only by good playing on the player's part and careful storytelling on the GM's part that such characters do not solve just about every situation. This may not be so true in an incredibly combat-oriented game, but it certainly is otherwise (even when things are combat-oriented, VPPs tend to be a little hard to manage, as the PC can typically come up with just about any weakness, NND defense, Desolidification exception, environmental advantage, Healing, etc., and even in small amounts this can be devastating).

 

So I wouldn't place much faith in any playtesting of VPPs. That's not to say I don't like them. On the contrary, I think they are great. I just wouldn't be so hesitant to change them as indicated by the argument that, "They work fine now, are well balanced, and are thoroughly playtested."

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

... the PC can typically come up with just about any weakness' date=' NND defense, Desolidification exception, environmental advantage, Healing, etc., and even in small amounts this can be devastating).[/quote']

 

That reminds me of something I have been meaning to ask, and this thread is as good a place as any. I seem to recall seeing somewhere that there were limits (of the "with GM approval" variety) on putting certain Powers in Multipowers and Power Pools (Stop Sign powers, for example). I can't seem to find this in the H5R book, though. Does this sound familiar to anyone? If so, do you have a page reference, please?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

I don't know. Even for very small pools' date=' being able to instantly change Powers is a very Powerful thing. It gives you amazing versatility within that Power range. You have the ultimate swiss army knife: not just an awl, screwdriver, corkscrew, bottle opener, tweezers, toothpick and scissors, but flashlight, laser pointer, bean dip, shoe polish, and an infinite number of other Nifty Things . Not only that, but you have them immediately available in all situations.

 

The ability to change powers at will is powerful, no question. However, the bigger the pool, the more powerful I would consider that ability. Hence my view it should remain as an advantage.

 

As to VPP characters overshadowing everyone else, this is a serious area for judgement and good players. My current character has a fairly large VPP which changes without a skill roll on 14-, in 1/2 phase on 11- and 0 phase on 8-. The character, at design, was restricted as to available powers. How?

 

Well, I knew we had a mentalist. He can't take mental powers. We have a glue-projecting EB/Entangler. Totally different SFX, than my VPP, but I rarely use an entangle since that's his schtick. We have a Brick. I don't beef up my stats. And we have a Darkness energy projector (my character is bright and loud - opposite SFX).

 

So what does my character use for offense? Well, a lot of Flashes and Drains, some energy blasts and a smattering of other things. No one has complained, and we pretty much all contribute more or less equally in combat and out.

 

But my character also has limitations like "Impatient, Impulsive and Impetuous" and, frankly, he's not that smart. So he doesn't come up with a lot of new powers on the fly, though he has an extensive list of "old powers". Between his limits, his style and his personality, he has been designed NOT to step on people's toes.

 

And the other players don't step on his. [Actually, he has no toes, but you get the idea...]

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

As to VPP characters overshadowing everyone else' date=' this is a serious area for judgement and good players.[/quote']

 

Quite true. There are good reasons for its being a Stop Sign power.

 

Between his limits' date=' his style and his personality, he has been designed NOT to step on people's toes.[/quote']

 

That is very important to keep in mind, and it was uppermost in my mind when I recently rewrote my only current Power Pool using character. It's important even if the character doesn't have a Power Pool, come to think of it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

On not stepping on toes:

 

That is very important to keep in mind' date=' and it was uppermost in my mind when I recently rewrote my only current Power Pool using character. It's important even if the character doesn't have a Power Pool, come to think of it.

 

So...you ALL built Bricks, and your team consists of the Thing, the Hulk, the Golem, Colossus and the Blob... This should be an interesting campaign.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

So...you ALL built Bricks' date=' and your team consists of the Thing, the Hulk, the Golem, Colossus and the Blob... This should be an interesting campaign.[/quote']

 

Um.... what? I'm sorry, but I do not understand.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

Um.... what? I'm sorry' date=' but I do not understand. [/quote']

 

Simply on the subject of stepping on toes - nothing quite like a game where all the players design basically the same character with minor variations.

 

[We had a 2e D&D game once where two players showed up with Dwarven fighter-thieves who had selected very similar Kits. I think their names were even similar.]

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

Simply on the subject of stepping on toes - nothing quite like a game where all the players design basically the same character with minor variations.

 

Oh, okay. I get it now.

 

[We had a 2e D&D game once where two players showed up with Dwarven fighter-thieves who had selected very similar Kits. I think their names were even similar.]

 

"Cousin Hrithgar!"

"Cousin Hrathgir!"

"How's Aunt Brynhild?"

"Short and angry. Aren't we all? And Aunt Brinhyld?"

"The same, the same."

[zornwil]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

Nice stuff JmOz and Phil F. before that. Can't rep now but shall. Inspires me to spend more time on the Unified Framework idea which should be able to handle this, but sadly have to keep that at arm's distance while I concentrate on other stuff. Though I'm enjoying taking time to catch up on this forum, it's been a while, can't believe how many great ideas occur over every quarter.

[Vondy]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

First, I think the idea is workable and fairly handled: if you are worried about large pools being used to bust campaing limits. On the other hand, is it really that big a problem? Couldn't the GM just as easily require a -0 lim on the control cost: cannot exceed campaign guidelines? Or require players write up a pre-defined list of pre-approved powers they intend to use? Incidentally, I use the latter method.The older I get the less I worry about active points; and the more I worry about actual constructs and story uses.

 

For instance, I run a high powered heroic campaign with powers. The average number of damage dice (normal) rolled is 8-11. We have one character with a 160 point power pool (many kinetic energy constructs, while not game busters, are painfully expensive). One pre-defined and approved power is a 30d6EB (her "overpower blast") that takes a full minute to power up, requires her to concentrate at 1/2 DCV during the build up, and costs a whopping 60 END. Its a cool signature power that has limited impact on actual combat (though I suppose she could, with advanced warning, power up and get off an extremely nasty first shot (and be almost out of endurance as a result), but serves a useful purpose as a tank-buster or obstacle demolisher. I would never approve: "I can toss 30D6 or 20D6 (0 END) EBs at will." It doesn't fit the game. The characters average pre-defined attack is 9D6+1, but they have some cool entangles and impressive force walls.

 

I see this as being more useful for players who may want to work with a large power pool, but want a cost break because they don't intend to bust the campaign limits in the process.