A new idea for how to handle VPP's

[JmOz]

I have seen a number of systems that try to divorce the AP limit with the Real Cost limit.

 

The problem I have always had was that the most comon was to make the real and active cost 2 per 1 point spent. This seemed way to easy to abuse, then applied the standard 1/2 cost as a control cost

 

So this is what I have come up with

 

You pay for the pool 1 per 1 for the pool. However all the pool does is say how many real points you can put in it. This can not be modified in anyway (no advantages/lims)

 

The Control Cost is based on the highest number of Active Points you want to be able to place in the pool at a cost of 2 AP per 1 real point. This can be modifed per limitations, furthermore the standard VPP modifiers may be placed on this number.

 

The key here is you could make a character who has a VPP of 100 points with a control of 50. He could not create a 11d6 EB, but he could do a 10d6 EB, 10/10 FF, 15" Flight. Total cost 100+25=125

 

Or you Could do a Character who had a pool of 20 but a control of 40. to do an 8d6 EB he would need to put -1 worht of lims on it (OAF?). Total Cost 20+20=40

 

Note that this will also preserve already existing VPP characters (Who will have CC & Pools of the same size)

[Dust Raven]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

This looks workable. About the only thing I don't like about it is that I don't like using anything that's not official (sure, I change things myself, but not this much). I prefer to use what the system gives me, and maybe change a cost or two. Makes it easier on my players and on HD.

 

This is one of the oddball things that have always bugged be about VPPs though. One of my character concepts would make a great use of this kind of VPP. Basically she's a jedi whose force powers are written up using a VPP with up to 60 active point powers but no single power can have a real cost of over 30 (gotta Concentrate and take extra time to lift that X-wing out of a bog).

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

I totally dig this idea and think it should be official.

[prestidigitator]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

Not bad. Nice and simple. I'd rep if I could.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

Somewhat related:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2924

[mattingly]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

nice idea. I've seen it done the other way before -- a large VPP with a smaller Control to represent a lot of smaller powers filling up a large pool.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

I've toyed around with a very similar idea, and really can see no balance issues with it (anymore than anything else in the system, anyway). Kudos to putting in out in such a conscise and claer fashion, and I hope we see this idea in a future suppliment, edition, or DH article.

 

repped

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

You pay for the pool 1 per 1 for the pool. ... The Control Cost is based on the highest number of Active Points you want to be able to place in the pool at a cost of 2 AP per 1 real point.

 

Seems reasonable. It would enable people to write up Gadget Pools again.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

I think that it's made the rounds before, a couple of years ago if I recall correctly.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?goto=lastpost&t=18702 but I seem to recall seeing it before that even.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

Seems reasonable. It would enable people to write up Gadget Pools again.

Yeah...I kinda miss the Old Skool Gadget Pools too.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

Yeah...I kinda miss the Old Skool Gadget Pools too.

 

I know that they were abused under the original rules, but I do think that there is a need for them in the system. I think your method would be a fair way to restore that functionality.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

I really do like how "rectangular" this model is (to use a term from Killer Shrikes link). I'm already pondering how it can be used for plot device mages and the like... Huge control cost, wee little reserve, perfect for representing those mighty archmage types who can level armies as long as they have about a week to prepare, tons of materials, the stars in alignment and all that jazz.

[prestidigitator]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

One thing that strikes me as being a little bit odd about this approach is how it might muck with the application of Limitations that affect all Powers in the VPP. If you have a small Control and a large Pool, you sure won't save much even with some pretty hobbling Limitations. I'm not sure if I like this or not.

[JmOz]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

One thing that strikes me as being a little bit odd about this approach is how it might muck with the application of Limitations that affect all Powers in the VPP. If you have a small Control and a large Pool' date=' you sure won't save much even with some pretty hobbling Limitations. I'm not sure if I like this or not. [/quote']

 

True, but then again you will be able to have the whole pools worth of real points in powers active, realise that the lim will effect the powers IN the pool, but will reduce the cost of them when applied against the pool limit

[JmOz]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

Thank you for the link Chris

 

I want to appoligise, I did not remember that thread from before, I wonder if I read it back then and that it poped in my head at a later date without contex. Phil and crew, it is a great idea thanks for doing it first.

[Dust Raven]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

True' date=' but then again you will be able to have the whole pools worth of real points in powers active, realise that the lim will effect the powers IN the pool, but will reduce the cost of them when applied against the pool limit[/quote']

 

Show me an example of what you mean by this. My head hurts after thinking about the Scour thread for too long and I can't quite wrap my brain around VPPs of any kind at the moment.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

I think where hes going is something like this...

Gadget Pool

90 point reserve= 90 RP

30 active point maximum Control Cost=15 base points

(-1/2)all powers must take -1/2 worth of Focus limitations

(-1/2) powers can only be changed at base/lab

total control cost: 7.5 points

total cost :97.5 points (round appropriately)

 

So you can fill this pool with 30 AP, OIF gadgets which cost you 20 Rp each, and you can have 4 of them in the pool with no other limits, and still have room for another 20 AP OAF.

Or you could have 6 OAF gadgets at 30 AP each.

And you can always add more limits to your toys as appropriate

[JmOz]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

Tha amazing Gaget Man has

 

90 Point Pool, but his Gadgers are maxed at 40 Active Points, further more they must take at least OIF (-1/2), and can only be changed in the gadget layer (-1/2)

 

so

 

90 90 Point Pool

10 40 Control Cost (40/2=20 normal cost, -1 worth of lims brings it down to 10)

----

100 points spent

 

When he decided now he can fill up 90 points of power so he decides to use today

 

20 Blaster: 8d6 OAF 16 Charge (40 Active Points)

27 Jet Pack: 20" Flight 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 1 hour (+0) (40 Active)

27 Force Field Generator: 20/20 FF, 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 1 hour (+0) (40 Active)

16 Flash Grenade: Flash 5d6, Explosion, OIF, 6 charges (-3/4) (40 Active)

---

90 Real Points of gadgets in the pool. This is why the pool should never be limited, because when the day is done they will be getting this many points in powers.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

How about an example the other way...in which the Active point cap is higher than the Real point cap?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

How about an example the other way...in which the Active point cap is higher than the Real point cap?

 

hmmm...20 point VPP

Control Cost 60 x 1/2 = 30

 

Let's require OAF and 4 charges on all powers - that makes the Control Cost 10, for a total cost of 30.

 

I can take one 60 AP power with OAF and 4 charges, for 20 real points.

 

Seems reasonable - I pay an extra 10 points for the privilege of having any attack I want in this pool, rather than a single attack with OAF and 4 charges.

 

I could have a 60 point VPP with the same control cost to carry three such powers. That would cost 60 + 10 = 70.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

Thank you for the link Chris

 

I want to appoligise, I did not remember that thread from before, I wonder if I read it back then and that it poped in my head at a later date without contex. Phil and crew, it is a great idea thanks for doing it first.

Just for the record, as much as I'd like to take credit for it, I wasn't the one who did it first. I got the idea from someone else on an older incarnation of these boards, but I don't remember who. It was probably some old-school guy that we all know from 4th Ed. days.

 

I've used this method and have found that it works very well and has not caused any balance issues.

[Force]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

Excellent idea!!!!

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

looks good, but how would it change if you made the pool cosmic? then lots of limitations arn't as limiting and it makes it harder to have a small pool with a large control

 

on the other hand maybe i'm not quite getting the concept, VPPs have always been sorta nebulous to me

[Dust Raven]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

looks good, but how would it change if you made the pool cosmic? then lots of limitations arn't as limiting and it makes it harder to have a small pool with a large control

 

on the other hand maybe i'm not quite getting the concept, VPPs have always been sorta nebulous to me

 

You could also have a huge pool with a small control for very little extra. Like I said, it looks good on paper, but I'm not too sure about what it looks like in use.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A new idea for how to handle VPP's

 

You could also have a huge pool with a small control for very little extra. Like I said' date=' it looks good on paper, but I'm not too sure about what it looks like in use.[/quote']

 

Let's say you have a 150 point pool and spend 5 points on a control cost. You can buy a whole slew of 10 active point powers (15 unlimited ones, 30 with -1 limitations on each, etc.). Is that worth a lot more than 160 points?

 

Consider that you could have purchased a Multipower with a 60 point pool and 95 Ultra slots for the same price (and been able to switch freely as a zero phase action, using 6 powers at any given time).

 

Is this really a lot more powerful?