Penalty Skill Levels

[Mazeus Xenon]

OKay, I am sure somewhere on the boards this has been discussed but i can't seem to find it...

 

Anyway,

I was just wondering what qualifies for "a specific type of negative modifier" to Penalty Skill Levels. Sure, they mention Ranged Penalties and Targeting Penalties, but what about buying PSL for something like Move By, Sweep, or a Martial Disarm? Would each of these be their own specific modifier (basically forcing me have to buy the skill for each MA Skill to offset the penalties) or what? Would "Combat Maneuver Penalties" cover everything or what?

 

Just wondering what the "official" rules say (if anything) as I know i can make it mean whatever I want, but I would like to start somewhere...

 

Oh, and please don't quote pages from 5REd as I do not have it - I have the "original" 5ED as I haven't had the opportunity to get it yet and don't really have the $$$ to buy it right now... thanks! Of course, a quick quote of the rules for this would be welcome, if they are that different from 5ED!

 

Mazeus Xenon

[prestidigitator]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

I'll agree that it is a little nebulous, but one thing I know for sure: OCV reductions that are part of a maneuver (including Sweep and Rapid Fire) are not eligible. In order to cancel out the OCV penalties for maneuvers, you have to buy 2-point CSLs (I have always ruled that you cannot gain an actual bonus to Sweep or Rapid Fire with 2-point CSLs--for these maneuvers they act similar to PSLs). However, the cumulative -2 you get on successive Blocks is eligible.

 

I think it is really a common sense thing. Examples we actually have of PSLs include Ranged and Targeting penalties, as you said, and also off-hand penalties. I would personally also include the penalty for being unfamiliar with a weapon (though this could be unbalancing for some games), penalties due to cover or lack of visibility (though you cannot un-halve your OCV--that is different from a flat penalty), penalties due to Str below a Strength Min, etc. Whether something qualifies seems to be left largely up to the GM, and I think this is fine.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

This threw me for a loop as well when I tried to figure it out. From what I gather, is the penalty is part of the maneuver, it doesn't qualify. If the penalty is from something you do with the maneuver, it does. So things like Range, Hit Location, Successive Block or Missile Deflection, Addition Shots with Autofire Attacks, Size, Environment, Perception and stuff like that are all fine.

[Mazeus Xenon]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

Yeah, that's kind of what I thought. Although I can see the arguement for allowing it to be purchased at normal cost to offset the penalties within a specific manevuer (1 1/2pts to offset the penalty for Off Strike but only with a Broad Sword or something like that) I certainly understand why you shouldn't allow it!

 

Always good to know I am not the only one that gets confused with this stuff... thanks as always folks!!!

 

Mazeus Xenon

[prestidigitator]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

This threw me for a loop as well when I tried to figure it out. From what I gather' date=' is the penalty is part of the maneuver, it doesn't qualify. If the penalty is from something you do with the maneuver, it does. So things like Range, Hit Location, Successive Block or Missile Deflection, Addition Shots with Autofire Attacks, Size, Environment, Perception and stuff like that are all fine.[/quote']

I believe the justification given is that the OCV modifier for a maneuver is not a penalty; it is an, "adjustment to OCV that reflects the difficulty of the maneuver," or some hokus pokus like that. I just think of it as something like Inherent, so that if a reduction is part of the very definition of a maneuver it cannot be, "reduced" (instead it must be compensated for in another fashion, such as a balancing bonus).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

I believe the justification given is that the OCV modifier for a maneuver is not a penalty; it is an' date=' "adjustment to OCV that reflects the difficulty of the maneuver," or some hokus pokus like that. I just think of it as something like Inherent, so that if a reduction is part of the very definition of a maneuver it cannot be, "reduced" (instead it must be compensated for in another fashion, such as a balancing bonus).[/quote']

 

:DJustification schmustification and semantics. It doesn't really need to be justified. One is an OCV adjustment because of what the maneuver is, and the other is an OCV adjustment because of what you're doing with the maneuver. You can only apply PSLs against the second.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

Always good to know I am not the only one that gets confused with this stuff... thanks as always folks!!!

 

Mazeus Xenon

 

No problem, happens to me a lot.

 

BTW: what's up with your avatar?

[Mazeus Xenon]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

Have you ever seen Farscape? Well, that is my favorite show of all time and my Avatar is a character from the show (my favorite of course); just an Icon from a desktop theme.

 

I am upset the show was cancelled some time ago... but that is a discussion for a different discussion board!

 

Mazeus Xenon

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

The rules aren't very clear on what Penalty Skill Levels can and cannot be used against. The additions in the 5ER and the FAQ seemed "contrived" to me. I understand its a question of balance, but then again, in my group its always been the GM's job to control that. Thus, I allow Penalty Skill Levels to apply to all the things that the FAQ says not to (Offensive Strike, Haymaker, Sweep and Rapid Fire etc). What I do is look at each characters individual write-up and decide if its balanced or not. If its not, I'll work with the player to get something we're both happy with.

 

Personally, I think PSL vs Sweep penalties are a great way of simulating a Weapons Master type character who can tear through a whole crowd of enemies without pausing for breath...

[prestidigitator]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

Personally' date=' I think PSL vs Sweep penalties are a great way of simulating a Weapons Master type character who can tear through a whole crowd of enemies without pausing for breath...[/quote']

But the thing is, isn't that exactly what 2-point CSLs bought for the Sweep maneuver should do? If so, a Meta-Rule applies and the most expensive method should apply. It's not like 2 points is a lot more expensive than the PSL in any case.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

But the thing is' date=' isn't that exactly what 2-point CSLs bought for the Sweep maneuver should do? If so, a Meta-Rule applies and the most expensive method should apply. It's not like 2 points is a lot more expensive than the PSL in any case.[/quote']

the difference is small but noticeable, and mostly comes into play in campaigns with CV maxiums. CSL's raise CV's. PSL's do not. A weaponmaster type character with +6 CSL's with sweep manuever could sweep his attack against 2 opponents and end up with an extra 4 ocv against each. The same character with +6 PSL's with sweep would be attacking at his normal OCV, whether he was attacking 2 opponents or 4, up to the limits of his PSL's.

For just this reason I like using PSL's a lot. It helps add expertise to a character without allowing them to go into hideous CV levels.

[MitchellS]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

Have you ever seen Farscape? Well, that is my favorite show of all time and my Avatar is a character from the show (my favorite of course); just an Icon from a desktop theme.

 

I am upset the show was cancelled some time ago... but that is a discussion for a different discussion board!

 

Mazeus Xenon

I think he means your avatar picture is not showing up on your posts. It's a blank spot that looks like the picture is missing or didn't load.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

the difference is small but noticeable, and mostly comes into play in campaigns with CV maxiums. CSL's raise CV's. PSL's do not. A weaponmaster type character with +6 CSL's with sweep manuever could sweep his attack against 2 opponents and end up with an extra 4 ocv against each. The same character with +6 PSL's with sweep would be attacking at his normal OCV, whether he was attacking 2 opponents or 4, up to the limits of his PSL's.

For just this reason I like using PSL's a lot. It helps add expertise to a character without allowing them to go into hideous CV levels.

Ah. See, I don't think normal CSLs applied to Sweep should raise your CV, because it doesn't make much sense that Sweeping an attack will give you a better CV than if you use it outside of Sweep. Now if the CSLs apply to all the attacks inside the Sweep (not necessarily the maneuvers, "within," the Sweep, but the actual attacks), then I will allow them to increase your actual CV. This seems to agree with the way Steve Long has ruled.

 

Therefore, CSLs and PSLs when applied to the actual Sweep maneuver have the same effect. The CSLs are more expensive, and should thus win out by Meta-Rule.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

I think he means your avatar picture is not showing up on your posts. It's a blank spot that looks like the picture is missing or didn't load.

Huh. I see it just fine.

 

EDIT: Are you using the evil Microsoft Explorer by any chance? I am using Mozilla. I don't see why there should be a difference, but then I can't really think of another reason I might be able to see it fine and others not.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

RE: The standard isn't clear. Actually it's really clear on one point: it can't apply to DCV penalties. Having toyed with allowing it, I can see why too.

 

RE: Applying it to Sweep/Move By. Good example here is one of the PC's in the campaign I'm running. He has 4 PSL's versus the multiple-attack penalty to Move By, Move Thru, and Passing Strike. He always suffers the -2 OCV penalty for Move By -- but he can negate the additionaly -4 OCV penalty if he's attacking 3 people instead of 1. This allows him to attack 3 people for the same -2 OCV penalty he'd get for attacking 1.

 

Another example might be Wonder Woman's ability to deflect a *lot* of attacks per turn. She probably has a number of PSL's versus the -2 cumulative penalty for each deflection. There are actually better ways to reflect it but this is a working one.

 

One that is probably book-legal but borders on abuse would be to allow this against the Autofire penalties. Given the autofire skills that reduce the penalty, it wouldn't cost all that much to be able to fire all five shots (or more) without penalty.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

the difference is small but noticeable, and mostly comes into play in campaigns with CV maxiums. CSL's raise CV's. PSL's do not. A weaponmaster type character with +6 CSL's with sweep manuever could sweep his attack against 2 opponents and end up with an extra 4 ocv against each. The same character with +6 PSL's with sweep would be attacking at his normal OCV, whether he was attacking 2 opponents or 4, up to the limits of his PSL's.

For just this reason I like using PSL's a lot. It helps add expertise to a character without allowing them to go into hideous CV levels.

 

That is exactly the way I see it.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

But the thing is' date=' isn't that exactly what 2-point CSLs bought for the Sweep maneuver should do? If so, a Meta-Rule applies and the most expensive method should apply. It's not like 2 points is a lot more expensive than the PSL in any case.[/quote']

 

If I only want the penalty negated, and not to have the OCV augmented, shouldn't that be a PSL?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

Ah. See' date=' I don't think normal CSLs applied to Sweep should raise your CV, because it doesn't make much sense that Sweeping an attack will give you a [i']better[/i] CV than if you use it outside of Sweep. Now if the CSLs apply to all the attacks inside the Sweep (not necessarily the maneuvers, "within," the Sweep, but the actual attacks), then I will allow them to increase your actual CV. This seems to agree with the way Steve Long has ruled.

 

Therefore, CSLs and PSLs when applied to the actual Sweep maneuver have the same effect. The CSLs are more expensive, and should thus win out by Meta-Rule.

 

I see what you are saying here.

 

A question for you: Do you consider 2pt CSL's vs Sweep to cover all uses of the Sweep maneuver, or is it a specific type of Sweep? (Sweep Martial Strike, Sweep punch. Sweep-Broadsword etc)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

Have you ever seen Farscape? Well, that is my favorite show of all time and my Avatar is a character from the show (my favorite of course); just an Icon from a desktop theme.

 

I am upset the show was cancelled some time ago... but that is a discussion for a different discussion board!

 

Mazeus Xenon

 

I think he means your avatar picture is not showing up on your posts. It's a blank spot that looks like the picture is missing or didn't load.

 

What he said.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

If I only want the penalty negated' date=' and not to have the OCV augmented, shouldn't that be a PSL?[/quote']

 

I think it boils down to this: If you were to use CSL or PSLs and the effect would always be identical, then PSLs are not allowed. You cannot buy a PSL to negate the penalty for performing a Grab maneuver for example, because the penalty always applies no matter what you do. Technically it's the same for Sweep/Rapid Fire, but the value of the penalty depends on the number of targets. It's kind of a gray area because of that, but I accept the rule because it fits in line with how PSLs work with other maneuvers.

 

RE: Do you consider 2pt CSL's vs Sweep to cover all uses of the Sweep maneuver, or is it a specific type of Sweep?

 

I'm not sure about prestidigitator, but I allow it for Sweep in general. It's a two points level, it's a single maneuver. This little fact is one of the reasons I'm okay not using PSLs for Sweep. The only issue I have with it is when a character has more levels than targets, and ends up with his OCV higher than it would be if only attacking a single target. Even then, he's still taking a Full Phase and is a 1/2 DCV.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

RE: Do you consider 2pt CSL's vs Sweep to cover all uses of the Sweep maneuver' date=' or is it a specific [i']type[/i] of Sweep?

 

I'm not sure about prestidigitator, but I allow it for Sweep in general. It's a two points level, it's a single maneuver. This little fact is one of the reasons I'm okay not using PSLs for Sweep. The only issue I have with it is when a character has more levels than targets, and ends up with his OCV higher than it would be if only attacking a single target. Even then, he's still taking a Full Phase and is a 1/2 DCV.

Exactly. CSLs with the Sweep maneuver itself apply to all Sweeps. Incidentally, if you have CSLs for the attack you are Sweeping, then they can increase your OCV. So if I have +3 (2-point CSLs) with broadswords, and I Sweep a Strike with my broadsword, then I have +3 OCV with each attack roll in the Sweep (just like I would with a single Strike).

 

I also have a problem with more levels than penalties due to multiple targets. I have simply adopted the rule that CSLs with the Sweep maneuver cannot do more than make up for the Sweep OCV modifier. If you want a net bonus to OCV with the attacks, you need CSLs that can apply to the attacks in the Sweep themselves.

 

You might think that sounds too much like a PSL, but let's put it this way: the OCV modifiers that are part of maneuvers are probably built with 2-point CSLs in mind (either as bonuses or on the premise that you will need 2-point levels to make up for the negatives). Therefore, allowing PSLs to make up for the negative OCV modifiers of maneuvers probably results in maneuver/level combinations that are unbalanced.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

I've been going back and forth on the issue of allowing CSLs for a specific attack also applying when Sweeping/Rapid Firing with that attack. Technically they are two different maneuvers and you whould not be allowed to use the levels (just like you wouldn't get to use your levels with a Punch with a Haymaker, even though the SFX of your Haymaker is just a modified punch). Right now I advise players who want to buy levels with Sweep/Rapid Fire to buy three point levels, and include Sweep/Rapid Fire as one of those maneuvers. In such a case, I allow the CSLs to be used with a Sweep of anything the level applies to, and never have to worry about a Sweep having a higher OCV than a singe attack. The other workaround is with 5 point levels. Other than that, I simply restrict character from having more than 2 CSLs with Sweep or Rapid Fire specifically (2 point levels that is).

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

I was thinking about this subject today and I've come up with a conclusion thats very similar.

 

First, I was trying to wrap my mind around the basic idea behind Penalty Skill Levels. In FREd, it states that PSL's can't be used for the same options that CSL's can be used.

So I got to thinking: What are CSL's used for? They are used to augment OCV, DCV and DC, in general. Okay, thats pretty cut and dried. So what can they be used for? Maneuvers and specific attacks.

 

So what are PSL's good for? After thinking about it for a while, it became obvious: PSL's are for OCV penalties from actions derived in combat not directly related to a maneuver! Hit locations and Range penalties are but two examples.

 

Okay, so now I get what PSL's are for!

 

Okay, so now that this is clear, I determined by that logic, neither Block nor Missile Deflection can make use of PSL's because the penalty for blocking multiple attacks is directly related to the maneuver itself. DOH!

 

Then I made a decision: As far as I'm concerned, all of the above is null and void in my campaigns. PSL's can be used for the following:

 

Hit Location (Targeting)

Range (Accuracy)

Sweep

Rapid Fire

Block

Missile Deflection

Move-by

Passing Strike

Autofire

Environmental Conditions (drunk, Cramped etc)

Off-Hand (aka Ambidexterity)

Concealment (Dead-Aim)

Thrown weapons (Unbalanced etc)

 

Things it can not be used on:

 

Maneuvers (with exceptions noted above)

Mind Scan

Move Through

Unfamiliar Weapon (this is what WF is for)

Pulling a Punch

Rolling with Punch

Suppression Fire

 

As far as "Maneuvers" are concerned, Penalty Skill Levels can not be used to remove an "inherent" OCV penalty built within. However, cumulative OCV penalties, such as those derived from Block, Missile Deflection, Sweep, Rapidfire and Multiple Move-by/through are eligable for PSL's.

 

This means that, for example, the Move-by maneuver has an inherent -2 OCV penalty. This penalty can never be removed with a PSL. This requires a CSL to counteract. However, the cumulative -2OCV penalty from using the Move-by maneuver against multiple opponents can be removed with PSL's.

Also note that the -V/5 OCV penalty from Move-Through is not affected by PSL's.

As far as Suppression Fire vs Autofire is concered; PSL's can be used to counteract the penalty for firing in multiple hexes with Autofire. However, they do not reduce the inherent -2 OCV penaltyfor using the Suppression Fire maneuver. Thus a character with PSL vs Autofire can use them to cancel the penalty for firing in multiple hexes, but the -2 OCV penalty for Suppression fire still applies.

With Autofire PSL's there are two types: Burstfire PSL's and Spreadfire PSL's. This difference between the two are this: Burstfire PSL's apply to Autofire attacks aimed at a single target. Each +2 PSL's allows the Autofire Attack to hit one additional time on a successful hit.

Example: The Harbinger has +6PSL's with Burstfire for SMG"s (2pt PSL's). He fires at a thug with a 10-shot Autofire attack. His chance to hit is a 14 or less and he rolls a 10. Under normal circumstances, he would hit the thug 3 times (on 14, 12 and 10), but with his +6PSL's he hit 6 times! (effectively hit on 20, 18, 16, 14, 12 and 10). Needless to say, the thug is swiss cheese...

With Spreadfire PSL's, the Level cancels Autofire penalties to spread attacks across multiple hexes.

Example: Harbinger now has to deal with the thugs 3 buddies. They are exactly 6 hexes across, meaning he has to take a -6 OCV penalty! Normally this would hamper such an action, but The Harbinger has +4 PSL's vs Spreadfire. Thus, the OCV penalty is reduced to a mere -2 OCV. He succesfully plugs each of the criminals once apiece...

 

Thats how I've decided to deal with the PSL controversy.

 

You may now fling your dung.

 

[MitchellS]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

PSLs should be a broader skill that takes advantage of all penalties. I could see Reed Richards have 3 point PSL to offset the amount of time it takes to make a specific skill roll [normally it would take a 5 years to invent the quantum toaster but Reed use his 4 PSL and manages to do it in 1 week].

 

They could also be used against environmental penalties instead of the environmental movement talent to represent certain types of sure-footedness [silver Surfer has no problems moving in space, Namor in water, Iceman on ice, etc.]. Also long-term end penalties or penalties from being in low or high atmosphere areas such as the mountains.

 

There's really a lot of untapped potential there. It's a shame to only use the levels for combat penalties, IMO.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to NuSoardGraphite again.

 

Sounds like you think the same way I do.