Penalty Skill Levels

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

PSLs should be a broader skill that takes advantage of all penalties. I could see Reed Richards have 3 point PSL to offset the amount of time it takes to make a specific skill roll [normally it would take a 5 years to invent the quantum toaster but Reed use his 4 PSL and manages to do it in 1 week].

 

They could also be used against environmental penalties instead of the environmental movement talent to represent certain types of sure-footedness [silver Surfer has no problems moving in space, Namor in water, Iceman on ice, etc.]. Also long-term end penalties or penalties from being in low or high atmosphere areas such as the mountains.

 

There's really a lot of untapped potential there. It's a shame to only use the levels for combat penalties, IMO.

 

I completely agree. I'm even somewhat inclined to go directly against the rules and allow some PSL's to work towards DCV... such as PSL's that apply to encumberance penalties. And I've always liked the idea of PSL's with skills to represent someone with superior skills.... good way to pull off MacGuyverisms.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

I've been going back and forth on the issue of allowing CSLs for a specific attack also applying when Sweeping/Rapid Firing with that attack. Technically they are two different maneuvers and you whould not be allowed to use the levels (just like you wouldn't get to use your levels with a Punch with a Haymaker' date=' even though the SFX of your Haymaker is just a modified punch). Right now I advise players who want to buy levels with Sweep/Rapid Fire to buy three point levels, and include Sweep/Rapid Fire as one of those maneuvers. In such a case, I allow the CSLs to be used with a Sweep of anything the level applies to, and never have to worry about a Sweep having a higher OCV than a singe attack. The other workaround is with 5 point levels. Other than that, I simply restrict character from having more than 2 CSLs with Sweep or Rapid Fire specifically (2 point levels that is).[/quote']

Heh. You want to hear something really screwy? If you have a CSL that applies to a particular attack or Tight Group, you can use it with the Sweep as long as the Sweep employs that attack or Tight Group. If you have a CSL that applies to a particular maneuver you cannot use it with a Sweep. It's all in the FAQ and Rules Questions Board. I've researched this one pretty thoroughly. As long as 5ER doesn't go back on the FAQ rulings (and I don't think it does; it is merely supposed to incorporate the FAQs), I believe I have it right.

 

EDIT: For example, if you have CSLs that apply to Blades, and you Sweep with sword Strikes, you can use your CSLs. If your CSLs apply to the Strike maneuver, you cannot.

 

EDIT #2: These are the official rulings anyway. I'm not sure how much I agree with not being able to use CSLs that apply to the maneuver you are Sweeping. I have to ponder that one some more, and perhaps play test it. I agree with most of the rest of the official rulings on the matter.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

PSLs should be a broader skill that takes advantage of all penalties. I could see Reed Richards have 3 point PSL to offset the amount of time it takes to make a specific skill roll [normally it would take a 5 years to invent the quantum toaster but Reed use his 4 PSL and manages to do it in 1 week].

 

They could also be used against environmental penalties instead of the environmental movement talent to represent certain types of sure-footedness [silver Surfer has no problems moving in space, Namor in water, Iceman on ice, etc.]. Also long-term end penalties or penalties from being in low or high atmosphere areas such as the mountains.

 

There's really a lot of untapped potential there. It's a shame to only use the levels for combat penalties, IMO.

Now that one I agree with completely. I like the idea of using them for things other than combat. I see no real reason not to. After all, CSLs and SLs are pretty much matched point-wise for the amount of applicability they have. I don't see any real balance issues with allowing PSLs for Skills (at least in general; I'd probably tailor my acceptance of such a use on a per-campaign basis).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

PSL's can be used for the following:

 

Hit Location (Targeting)

Range (Accuracy)

Sweep

Rapid Fire

Block

Missile Deflection

Move-by

Passing Strike

Autofire

Environmental Conditions (drunk, Cramped etc)

Off-Hand (aka Ambidexterity)

Concealment (Dead-Aim)

Thrown weapons (Unbalanced etc)

 

Things it can not be used on:

 

Maneuvers (with exceptions noted above)

Mind Scan

Move Through

Unfamiliar Weapon (this is what WF is for)

Pulling a Punch

Rolling with Punch

Suppression Fire

 

It's odd that you put Mind Scan in the "not" category. It seems to me that it's a definate canditate for PSLs. The penalties have nothing to do with the Power/Maneuver, but what it's being used on, really no different that a Range Penalty or Hit Locations.

 

For the same reason, I'm wondering why the penalties for Thrown objects are on the in list. These strike me as in surmountable by anything but true skill (which would make throwing an object designed for throwing easier, rather than just as hard as throwing a giant limp noodle).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

PSLs should be a broader skill that takes advantage of all penalties. I could see Reed Richards have 3 point PSL to offset the amount of time it takes to make a specific skill roll [normally it would take a 5 years to invent the quantum toaster but Reed use his 4 PSL and manages to do it in 1 week].

 

They could also be used against environmental penalties instead of the environmental movement talent to represent certain types of sure-footedness [silver Surfer has no problems moving in space, Namor in water, Iceman on ice, etc.]. Also long-term end penalties or penalties from being in low or high atmosphere areas such as the mountains.

 

There's really a lot of untapped potential there. It's a shame to only use the levels for combat penalties, IMO.

 

I already play this way. A penalty is a penalty is a penalty. Doesn't matter if it penalizes OCV, DCV, ECV, your skill roll, a char roll or whatever. PSLs can apply to it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

Heh. You want to hear something really screwy? If you have a CSL that applies to a particular attack or Tight Group' date=' you can use it with the Sweep as long as the Sweep employs that attack or Tight Group. If you have a CSL that applies to a particular [i']maneuver[/i] you cannot use it with a Sweep. It's all in the FAQ and Rules Questions Board. I've researched this one pretty thoroughly. As long as 5ER doesn't go back on the FAQ rulings (and I don't think it does; it is merely supposed to incorporate the FAQs), I believe I have it right.

 

EDIT: For example, if you have CSLs that apply to Blades, and you Sweep with sword Strikes, you can use your CSLs. If your CSLs apply to the Strike maneuver, you cannot.

 

EDIT #2: These are the official rulings anyway. I'm not sure how much I agree with not being able to use CSLs that apply to the maneuver you are Sweeping. I have to ponder that one some more, and perhaps play test it. I agree with most of the rest of the official rulings on the matter.

 

Um... what's the difference between a maneuver and an attack? Is that in the FAQ? All an attack is is a maneuver that does something to someone else, like grabs them, hurts them, or cuts them up with a laser beam. I already know the FAQ doesn't allow CSLs to be taken with the Strike maneuver, so where is the line actually drawn? Officially.

[Gary]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

I would personally allow 3 pt PSLs to offset the DCV penalty from Growth. It's pretty close to the 5 pt DCV levels with the Linked Limitation anyway, and it doesn't seem to be unbalancing in any way.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

Um... what's the difference between a maneuver and an attack? Is that in the FAQ? All an attack is is a maneuver that does something to someone else' date=' like grabs them, hurts them, or cuts them up with a laser beam. I already know the FAQ doesn't allow CSLs to be taken with the Strike maneuver, so where is the line actually drawn? Officially.[/quote']

My understanding is that an attack is either a single Power, Martial maneuver, or specific weapon (e.g. a broadsword would count, but "swords," or the Tight Group Blades, would not). Notice that there is a difference in wording between what a 2-point CSL can apply to--a single attack or maneuver--and what a 3-point CSL can apply to--a Tight Group or 3 related maneuvers. That's my recollection of 5E anyway; I don't have it with me ATM.

 

You might want to browse the FAQs under Skills/CSLs, Combat/Sweep, etc. Also, searches for Sweep and such things in the Rules Questions Board can turn up good stuff. I feel I have a pretty good understanding of how it works, and I am glad I spent some time looking for clarification.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

It's odd that you put Mind Scan in the "not" category. It seems to me that it's a definate canditate for PSLs. The penalties have nothing to do with the Power/Maneuver' date=' but what it's being used on, really no different that a Range Penalty or Hit Locations.[/quote']

 

Because the text of Mind Link has a built-in OECV adder included for the purpose of reducing the penalties associated with searching through a great number of minds (2pts per +1 ECV with Mind Scan. Same as a 2pt +1 OCV level)

 

For the same reason, I'm wondering why the penalties for Thrown objects are on the in list. These strike me as in surmountable by anything but true skill (which would make throwing an object designed for throwing easier, rather than just as hard as throwing a giant limp noodle).

 

I just think its possible to train yourself to compensate for an objects unweildliness when throwing it. I consider this different from true throwing skill, which concentrates on achieving range and accuracy.

 

Other things that should be on the "in" list include STR-min penalties (for small characters who like Big weapons. Popular in Japanese console RPG's) and Wound penalties (from Impairing/Disabling etc)

[TheEmerged]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

RE: PSL instead of Environmental Movement. You do realize that Environmental Movement is built using the PSL mechanic, yes?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

RE: PSL instead of Environmental Movement. You do realize that Environmental Movement is built using the PSL mechanic' date=' yes?[/quote']

Hokey mokey! You are right! I forgot about that! Thus even the official builds step out of a strict combat use, don't they?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

Because the text of Mind Link has a built-in OECV adder included for the purpose of reducing the penalties associated with searching through a great number of minds (2pts per +1 ECV with Mind Scan. Same as a 2pt +1 OCV level)

 

The only problem there, is that those 2 points levels increase the overall ECV, and make finding the target easier even in areas "unclouded" by other minds. The levels act identically to normal 2 point CSLs.

 

 

 

I just think its possible to train yourself to compensate for an objects unweildliness when throwing it. I consider this different from true throwing skill, which concentrates on achieving range and accuracy.

Having practiced throwing a great number of things, I disagree. While I'm not Bullseye or anything, I've always found that throwing a darts and snowballs tend fly more accurately than say, a book or my shoe (and I've thrown all of them).

 

Other things that should be on the "in" list include STR-min penalties (for small characters who like Big weapons. Popular in Japanese console RPG's) and Wound penalties (from Impairing/Disabling etc)

 

I kinda agree with this, although I'd prefer to buy Limited STR rather than buy off the penalty. I suppose either is accurate/legal, so it's just a personal perference.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

Having practiced throwing a great number of things' date=' I disagree. While I'm not Bullseye or anything, I've always found that throwing a darts and snowballs tend fly more accurately than say, a book or my shoe (and I've thrown all of them).[/quote']

Huh. I'm not all that bad at throwing my shoes. It's just too bad I only have 2 Recoverable Charges. Books are a pain, though. Perhaps PSLs should be able to make up for penalties due to an object being unwieldy (or whatever they call it), but not those due to its being unaerodynamic.

[Black Rose]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

As far as it's ever mattered to me, Penalty Skill Level is simply a fancy name for a Skill Level with an "Only To Restore Starting Levels" Litation thrown on it. Look at the math; take a 5-pointer, a 3-pointer and a 2-pointer, put a -1/2 limitation on it, and you basically get the point costs for PSLs (provided you go in 1/2 point chunks for the 1 1/2-point PSL.

 

I do agree that 3 PSL, only to compensate for Weapon Unfamiliarity, is obscene. But ohhh so tempting.....

 

I also don't get what is different between

 

5-point CSLs; Only With Martial Art Maneuvers (-1/2), Only To Bring OCV/DCV To +0 (-1) Real Cost: 2 per +1

 

-- and --

 

2-point PSLs (Tight Group); only to bring OCV/DCV to +0

 

when you consider that "Tight Group" is supposed to include Martial Arts. Though I could see bumping it to the 3-point level.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Penalty Skill Levels

 

As far as it's ever mattered to me' date=' Penalty Skill Level is simply a fancy name for a Skill Level with an "Only To Restore Starting Levels" Litation thrown on it. Look at the math; take a 5-pointer, a 3-pointer and a 2-pointer, put a -1/2 limitation on it, and you basically get the point costs for PSLs (provided you go in 1/2 point chunks for the 1 1/2-point PSL.[/quote']

 

Thats pretty much how I see it.

 

I do agree that 3 PSL, only to compensate for Weapon Unfamiliarity, is obscene. But ohhh so tempting.....

 

Which is why Weapon Familiarity is on the "restricted" list (which is a pretty short list for my games). for 9pts, or 3, 3pt PSL's, a character could be familiar with every weapon in the universe.

 

I say nay nay....

 

I also don't get what is different between

 

5-point CSLs; Only With Martial Art Maneuvers (-1/2), Only To Bring OCV/DCV To +0 (-1) Real Cost: 2 per +1

 

-- and --

 

2-point PSLs (Tight Group); only to bring OCV/DCV to +0

 

when you consider that "Tight Group" is supposed to include Martial Arts. Though I could see bumping it to the 3-point level.

 

There isn't a difference. Its the exact same thing.

 

I understand why the restrictions on PSL's. They were put in the book to cover such things as Ranged Skill levels and Targeting skill levels. Of course, players of the game will take something like PSL (or Sweep/Rapid Fire or Multiple Power Attack etc etc) to its illogical extreme.