Need Help Simulating High-Tech Pistol

[Guest Black Lotus]

I have an idea for a high-tech pistol, inspired by the anime movie Kite, and I'd like to simulate it using the HERO rules. I'd appreciate any assistance/ advice board members can offer on this issue.

 

The pistol functions much like a normal one, with one crucial difference. If the special bullet fired by this pistols enters its target, the shooter can press a button on the grip of the pistol, causing the special bullet to explode (while still lodged in the target).

 

Several conditons apply. If the attack does BODY damage, that means the bullet touched the target's flesh; therefore, the target's Defenses do not apply to the damage caused by the explosion (the bullet is INSIDE of the target, so... yeah). The Area of the explosion should be one hex, probably. If the attack hits but does no BODY damage (armor or force field, etcetera), the bullet has to go SOMEWHERE... I need to figure out where. (In the case of Armor, maybe it lodges in the armor in some cases?)

 

So I have an IDEA of how to make this, but I'm new to HERO, and I want to see what some veterans have to say about it.

[MitchellS]

Re: Need Help Simulating High-Tech Pistol

 

I'd just add a plus xd6 NND does body to the bullet attack and give it the trigger advantage. The defense of the nnd is that the bullet the nnd is attached to must do body or no effect.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Need Help Simulating High-Tech Pistol

 

I'd just add a plus xd6 NND does body to the bullet attack and give it the trigger advantage. The defense of the nnd is that the bullet the nnd is attached to must do body or no effect.

 

That's pretty much what I was thinking!

 

Thanks for your input, much appreciated. Now I know I'm thinking along the right lines.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Need Help Simulating High-Tech Pistol

 

Handling the effects of where the bullet goes can be a bit weird. It's possible to take a lot of BODY damage and never have your armor penetrated (or skin broken, for that matter).

 

I'd suggest something like Mitchel's NND, but have the defense be "bullet not inside target" rather than bullet did BODY. Since that's a bit less common, I'd allow damage to still apply if the bullet is not inside the target, but the target gets his defense/armor normally (lodged in the armor). And no damage whatsoever if the bullet was completely deflected. Whether nor not the bullet is inside the target, on the armor or not there at all would have to be GM call, though some guidelines could be written up for penetration values for certain types of armor versus this type of bullet.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Need Help Simulating High-Tech Pistol

 

The problem with NND is that the bullet's explosion should still have the chance to do damage EVEN IF it's outside the body -- only difference being that the explosion now does normal damage, not NND.

 

See what I mean? If the bullet hits you in the arm, your arm explodes, with no defense possible. If it lodges in your armor, your armor still protects you, but the damage still happens....

 

Well, I'll just simplify it. Even if it lodges in your armor instead of your flesh, no damage applies.

 

But what if I shoot a wall with this bullet? I don't REALLY want it to be NND damage, just to simulate having an explosion go off from within your body.

 

I think 11/2d6 RKA, OAF, Real Weapon, Beam, 5 Charges plus 4d6, NND (Only if inside of a living being), Trigger, (insert other proper explosion crikey here) would be a good place to start, don't you agree?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Need Help Simulating High-Tech Pistol

 

NND with a Limitation: Defenses between bullet and target still apply. The value would depend on the penetrating power of the bullet versus the most common types of armor available. So if you lodge it in a wall, the wall get's its DEF against the explosion, but not any FF the wall might have. If lodged in someone's armor, the armor protects. If it lodges in the the flesh of a superhuman with armored flesh, the armored flesh protects, but not any armor being worn. Still have find a way to determine if the bullet has lodged in the flesh, armor, bounced off or gone through.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Need Help Simulating High-Tech Pistol

 

Great idea with that Limitation, thank you. It's made-up, isn't it? That's fine, of course.

 

If the 11/2d6 damage from the bullet can penetrate all Defenses and do even 1 BODY damage, then the explosion is NND. If a Force Field stops the bullet all on its own, I'm going to rule that the bullet is incinerated by the Force Field (sounds fair to me). If any other personal Defenses, such as Armor or PD or ED apply, and these defenses stop the bullet, I'll flip a coin. Heads, bullet lodges and explodes, though not with the NND Advantage; tails, the bullet is deflected, and lands in a pretty random area.

 

I'm also going to assume that the bullet is designed not to create an exit wound. I'm not sure how i would determine if it creates an exit wound or not.

 

Or perhaps I should simplify it a little.

 

Does that sound reasonable?

[Questioner]

Re: Need Help Simulating High-Tech Pistol

 

Another option is using RKA with Linked KA 1 phase activation and if allowed Sticky or Clinging to simulate the bullet becoming lodged in Armor, Force field or Body. NND or other stuff can be dropped in but it depends on rationale GM/player is using for the bullet. Can also add a Life Signs Detect if don't want inanimate objects exploding.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Need Help Simulating High-Tech Pistol

 

The exploding bullet idea has always been a bit of a rules paradox in my opinion.

 

it goes a little something like this...

Say you want an attack thats is a 2d6 RKA that then does another 2d6 RKA if the first attack inflicts body. The obvious way to build this is a linked NND, same as a poison. Which makes the explosive secondary attack VERY expensive, compared to the initial attack. So far so good, staright by the rules.

 

There is a logical flaw tho.

 

If the inital 2d6 RKA did body, than if the attack had been built simply with more damage classes, all the additional body rolled would have been inflicted on the target, past defences.

Even considering the "NND with a defence more common than normal defences" is only a +1/2 advantage, you're still looking at the secondary attack having a minimum of +1 1/2 advantages (NND +1/2, Does Body +1) for an effect that is really, in game terms, more of a limitation.

 

If one can add extra KA damage with a limitaion (such as the deadly blow skill) then wouldn't it follow to simply create this effect as

2d6RKA

+2d6 RKA (4D6 total), only if initial BODY damage penetrates defences(-1/2)

 

This obviously wouldn't warrant linked, because its a limited part of the same attack. Putting further advantages on the primary or secondary effecxt is a bit wiggy, rules wise, but no harder than most multicomponent or partially limited effects.

 

basically, the question here is "Should we have to pay over double the base points to create an effect that ignores armor only if it has already penetrated the armor?"

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Need Help Simulating High-Tech Pistol

 

good point Amadadn

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Need Help Simulating High-Tech Pistol

 

Another option is using RKA with Linked KA 1 phase activation and if allowed Sticky or Clinging to simulate the bullet becoming lodged in Armor' date=' Force field or Body. NND or other stuff can be dropped in but it depends on rationale GM/player is using for the bullet. Can also add a Life Signs Detect if don't want inanimate objects exploding.[/quote']

 

Sticky is for stuff that is "contagious" if the victim is touched, like a fire attack that sets a guy on fire, and if someone else touches him, they too catch fire.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Need Help Simulating High-Tech Pistol

 

If one can add extra KA damage with a limitaion (such as the deadly blow skill) then wouldn't it follow to simply create this effect as

2d6RKA

+2d6 RKA (4D6 total), only if initial BODY damage penetrates defences(-1/2)

 

This obviously wouldn't warrant linked, because its a limited part of the same attack. Putting further advantages on the primary or secondary effecxt is a bit wiggy, rules wise, but no harder than most multicomponent or partially limited effects.

 

basically, the question here is "Should we have to pay over double the base points to create an effect that ignores armor only if it has already penetrated the armor?"

 

But using 2d6 + 2d6 is a Reduced Penetration attack, and the target's Defense applies both times.

 

Also, EVEN IF the bullet misses, it can still be detonated.

 

Still, simpler may be better.

 

EDIT: OK, I see what you mean, but I still have to buy some sort of Advantage... for... wait, no... because if it were just 4d6.... Well, but again, the bullet can still be exploded even if it just hits the floor.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Need Help Simulating High-Tech Pistol

 

Because even if the first 2d6 DIDN'T go all the way through the Defenses, the bullet can still explode. So I can't say "+2d6 only if the first 2d6 does BODY"... see what I mean?

[MitchellS]

Re: Need Help Simulating High-Tech Pistol

 

Use my build example and buy the NND part as a naked advantage.

 

Bullet: 11/2d6 RKA plus

Special Bullet: 2d6 RKA, trigger plus

Special Bullet Penetration: Naked Advantage: NND [bullet must penetrate skin]: +1, Does Body: +1

 

By doing it that way the 2d6 RKA can still be triggered, even if the bullet is only in the armor.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Need Help Simulating High-Tech Pistol

 

Use my build example and buy the NND part as a naked advantage.

 

Bullet: 11/2d6 RKA plus

Special Bullet: 2d6 RKA, trigger plus

Special Bullet Penetration: Naked Advantage: NND [bullet must penetrate skin]: +1, Does Body: +1

 

By doing it that way the 2d6 RKA can still be triggered, even if the bullet is only in the armor.

 

Hey, that's pretty smooth. I like it! Thanks, Mitchell.

 

Also, it makes the bullets extremely expensive... and it should. Because they will, obviously, be quite deadly. And hard to come by.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Need Help Simulating High-Tech Pistol

 

Use my build example and buy the NND part as a naked advantage.

 

Bullet: 11/2d6 RKA plus

Special Bullet: 2d6 RKA, trigger plus

Special Bullet Penetration: Naked Advantage: NND [bullet must penetrate skin]: +1, Does Body: +1

 

By doing it that way the 2d6 RKA can still be triggered, even if the bullet is only in the armor.

in any case, I'd certainly argue that the Defence for the NND is more common than the standard defence for the attack, hence the NND should be +1/2. But this build certainly works. its just expensive.

And yes, my "paradox" doesn't work as well for a remotely triggered effect... your situation just reminded me of the problem.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Need Help Simulating High-Tech Pistol

 

OK, here's my tentative build for the "Kite Pistol"... anyone spot anything wrong, or that needs fixing?

 

Kite Pistol: RKA 1 1/2d6 (22 Active Points); 5 Charges (-3/4), OAF (-1), Beam (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Total Cost: 7 Character Points) plus Special Bullet: RKA 4d6, Trigger (depress button on grip, +1/4) (Total Cost: 75 Character Points) plus Special Bullet Penetration: Naked Advantage: NND (bullet must penetrate skin, +1/2), Does Body (+1) (Total Cost: 112 Character Points) Grand Total: 194 Character Points.

 

So um... yeah, that one's mighty expensive. I'm guessing it's going to be pretty rare to find those bullets.

[MitchellS]

Re: Need Help Simulating High-Tech Pistol

 

I would give the special bullet parts the same limitations as the bullet parts. It still requires the gun, still is limited by charges, etc. My understanding is that compound powers can also taked the linked limitation. Otherwise it's possible to use the special bullet parts alone, without the bullet.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Need Help Simulating High-Tech Pistol

 

NND with a Limitation: Defenses between bullet and target still apply. The value would depend on the penetrating power of the bullet versus the most common types of armor available. So if you lodge it in a wall' date=' the wall get's its DEF against the explosion, but not any FF the wall might have. If lodged in someone's armor, the armor protects. If it lodges in the the flesh of a superhuman with armored flesh, the armored flesh protects, but not any armor being worn. Still have find a way to determine if the bullet has lodged in the flesh, armor, bounced off or gone through.[/quote']

That actually just sounds to me like AVLD, rather than NND.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Need Help Simulating High-Tech Pistol

 

This might actually be taken care of in a way by the system itself. It is sort of incidental, which might leave a bad taste, but: if an AoE attack misses, you roll to see in which hex it lands (and IIRC, this cannot actually result in the target's hex). So build the secondary damage as a Triggered Explosion, and the extra damage due to the bullet being in the same hex as the target can be explained away as the bullet exploding from, "within," the target's defenses.

 

The only problem with this appraoch is what might happen to other characters/objects in the hex where the bullet actually does land. You could just run with the SFX and say that they still take damage as if they were a full hex away. Just a little fudging.

[Zed-F]

Re: Need Help Simulating High-Tech Pistol

 

I wouldn't make the special bullet explosion nearly so nasty. Just how much explosives do you think you can pack in a bullet anyway??

 

Normally speaking, I would make the fact that the bullet explodes merely an SFX excuse to justify PEN, or AP+PEN. If you really want to go with a separated effect, I would build something much more reasonable, like this compound power:

 

2d6 RKA plus 1d6 RKA (only if body done by first 2d6, -1/2)

 

This way the 3rd die of damage adds normally and doesn't need NND to work correctly. Basically you're buying a partially limited power, just like buying an EB that can be pushed to various tiers for increasing amounts of extra END.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Need Help Simulating High-Tech Pistol

 

I wouldn't make the special bullet explosion nearly so nasty. Just how much explosives do you think you can pack in a bullet anyway??

 

Normally speaking, I would make the fact that the bullet explodes merely an SFX excuse to justify PEN, or AP+PEN. If you really want to go with a separated effect, I would build something much more reasonable, like this compound power:

 

2d6 RKA plus 1d6 RKA (only if body done by first 2d6, -1/2)

 

This way the 3rd die of damage adds normally and doesn't need NND to work correctly. Basically you're buying a partially limited power, just like buying an EB that can be pushed to various tiers for increasing amounts of extra END.

 

Zed-F, first of all, we're talking a far-future setting, so even with non-rubber science, such an explosion is quite possible. Secondly, if you had ever seen Kite, you'd think 4d6 wasn't enough.

 

It's supposed to be a bullet which ensures that an unarmored target does not survive an assassination attempt, and it is designed to perform accordingly.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Need Help Simulating High-Tech Pistol

 

In fact, I'll go a step further: such a bullet would be quite possible today. Several factors contribute to why such bullets are not manufactured:

 

-- Unnecessary. FMJ (Full Metal Jacket) rounds are designed to bounce around inside someone's body, almost ensuring death. Frangible rounds also serve this purpose (the bullet releases a cluster of ball bearings upon impact, widening the wound channel and causing far more damage). And finally, high enough calibers of ammunition (notably .50) will automatically kill someone if the target is hit anywhere in the torso or head, because of the sheer size of the wound, especially the exit wound.

 

-- Dangerous to transport. Obviously.

 

-- Expensive to manufacture.

 

-- Would likely be considered "needlessly cruel".