Is TK too expensive?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Is TK too expensive?

 

Let's not forget that BOECV negates all range penalties....

 

I like the idea of TK using Ego rather than Dex, but I wouldn't like to see it always forced to be so.

[Nevenall]

Re: Is TK too expensive?

 

I think TK is correctly priced. It only took one clever player to convince me of that.

 

I don't think if this was mentioned, but another benefit of TK is that you are not limited to just 2 telekenetic hands. You can attack as many different people as your END can support. And you can freely attack people you grab at 1/2 their normal DCV.

 

Also, from the description of Mind Scan 5ER page, 207. "A BOECV power may be used through a Mind Scan lock-on, provided the BOECV power isn't subject to the normal Range Modifier."

[Silbeg]

What about updating the cost of BOECV?

 

I personally don't think that Tk is too expensive, as it is a remarkably useful power, for only an effective +1/2 advantage (I say effective, since it isn't really a modifier).

 

It is more useful than ranged STR (regardless of whether you would allow this in your campaign), as it has the indirect built in. It is also more useful than EBs, both for the indirect, and the ability to grab.

 

However, that being said, my problem lies with the BOECV. I would agree that there should be an advantage to switching from one type of CV to another (especially from OCV to ECV), as it enables a character to draw on his strengths (don't need to boost both EGO and DEX). However, by requiring that the OECV must target the opponents DCV with Psychokinesis, one of the major advantages of BOECV is diminished. Also, really, targetting physical defenses really reduces the effectiveness of a BOECV attack as well.

 

Talking with one of my players, I have come up with a probably solution. Much like "Normal Range Penalties Applies" is a -¼ "Adder" to the BOECV advantage, I am thinking of allowing "Normal DCV Applies" to be a -¼ "Adder" to the BOECV. So, this means that if the character has a BOECV, DCV Applies, Range Penalties Applies, this becomes a +½ advantage, rather than +1, as the effectiveness of the advantage has been diminished.

 

I welcome comments on this... it has yet to be play-tested in my group...

[Silbeg]

Re: Is TK too expensive?

 

I think Psychokinesis is not BoECV. I would allow the character to choose to target with ECV (changing no other aspects of the power) as a +1/4 advantage at most' date=' and I agree that being allowed to define the targetting stat (DEX or Ego) for free when an attack power is purchased would be fully reasonable.[/quote']

 

We are pretty close to being in agreement... see my last post on this subject!

I would say that changing CV bases would be an advantage, so something should be charged, but not a full +1!!!

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Is TK too expensive?

 

Why???

 

You mentioned elsewhere that the concept is playing to the character's strengths. And that thus it should cost. I say it already did. The character already bought EGO at likely a fairly high level. His DEX too is likely at a high level simply so the mentalist doesn't get pounded by physical (read DEX OCV attacks) too often.

 

It is really just a switch like PD or ED for an Energy Blast. Against some characters and in some campaigns the decision has a tremendous impact for good or ill but on the whole it really doesn't matter.

 

Like I said I have used this rule since bringing it up a while ago in my F2F game, and YMMV but I really haven't noticed a difference. The mentalist is not trampling on the game and in not doing anything the Energy Projector with TK is not already doing. She is just doing it based on her higher EGO score.

 

Hawksmoor

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Is TK too expensive?

 

yeah i agree with hawksmoor, if it's just for TK i don't see much of a problem

[Silbeg]

Re: Is TK too expensive?

 

Why???

 

You mentioned elsewhere that the concept is playing to the character's strengths. And that thus it should cost. I say it already did. The character already bought EGO at likely a fairly high level. His DEX too is likely at a high level simply so the mentalist doesn't get pounded by physical (read DEX OCV attacks) too often.

 

In fact, I am trying to buy the character without buying an outrageous DEX - she currently has a DEX 14, but only because she has been training a good deal of her life in sports, etc. In the area of her physical capabilities, she is a Talented Normal, at best. I have already conceded to increasing her CON to 23, but even that will probably be her maximum. In this character concept, a high-DEX would never make sense. She will always remain vulnerable to attacks with her relatively low DCV (most bricks won't even have that low of a DCV). She will make up for it with strong Psychokinetic Shields (FF and/or FW), but will never be hard to hit.

 

Buying up her DEX to high levels, just so that she wouldn't get hit often by attacks targetting DCV would be metagaming over character concept, something I really prefer not doing.

 

Her character concept dictates a strong mind (EGO 20, probably growing over time), but merely normal physical reactions (DEX 14).

 

Chances are, once she gains XP, her SPD will be going up beyond her current 4 (she is a very inexperienced character, side-kick level at 250-275 points in a 350 pt game), but possibly with a Menton-like limitation, only for Psychokinetic Attacks, or whatever...

 

So, in her case, switching from OCV to OECV is a significant advantage, but going against DCV vs DECV limits this advantage. Thus why I see BOECV being an advantage, rather than a mere +0 modifier.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Is TK too expensive?

 

Good. I like the keeping of the concept. But flip the argument. Imagine a 23 DEX 14 EGO Energy Projector. He weilds his energy like a big hand of force. the "rules" say it is not his body but his mind moving the object so his EGO is the targeting characteristic and governs the use of his Telekinesis.

 

Does this method unfairly penalize the EB w/TK by making him want (concept viablity or no) to buy his EGO up to a higher level?

 

Would this matter if you simply allowed him to swap out DEX for EGO?

 

My answers are:

 

Yes, it unfairly penalizes characters. Yours in particular.

 

and

 

No, since you are going to buy a high targeting characteristic anyway.

 

Hawksmoor

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Is TK too expensive?

 

Also it is Ego based OCV against DEX based DCV.

 

Hawksmoor

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is TK too expensive?

 

The problem is that we're used to any change carrying a cost, except changes the rule book says don't carry a cost.

 

Yes, there is an advantage to swapping OCV's (in most cases where this would be desired, anyway). There is an advantage to having an atack that works against PD and one that works against ED, too. I can select the defense I believe my target is weakest in.

 

Yet we don't charge any extra points to make that Hand Attack Energy, so our Brick can use his STR against PD or ED, at his discretion. Nor do we charge Major Winter extra points for having an ice blast (vs PD) and a cold blast (vs ED).

 

I believe this logic should be applied more in the Hero system. Two examples that come to mind:

 

(a) Changing the OCV base from Ego to Dex or vice versa. Te character pays for his Ego or Dex anyway.

 

( Swapping between exotic defenses (Flash, Mental, Power). Conversion of a normal attack to exotic defenses has the same cost, regardless oif the defense selected. Swaping between normal defenses carries no cost. Why should swaping between exotic defenses have a cost, muct less a cost as great as +3/4?

[Agent X]

Re: Is TK too expensive?

 

The problem is that we're used to any change carrying a cost, except changes the rule book says don't carry a cost.

 

Yes, there is an advantage to swapping OCV's (in most cases where this would be desired, anyway). There is an advantage to having an atack that works against PD and one that works against ED, too. I can select the defense I believe my target is weakest in.

 

Yet we don't charge any extra points to make that Hand Attack Energy, so our Brick can use his STR against PD or ED, at his discretion. Nor do we charge Major Winter extra points for having an ice blast (vs PD) and a cold blast (vs ED).

 

I believe this logic should be applied more in the Hero system. Two examples that come to mind:

 

(a) Changing the OCV base from Ego to Dex or vice versa. Te character pays for his Ego or Dex anyway.

 

( Swapping between exotic defenses (Flash, Mental, Power). Conversion of a normal attack to exotic defenses has the same cost, regardless oif the defense selected. Swaping between normal defenses carries no cost. Why should swaping between exotic defenses have a cost, muct less a cost as great as +3/4?

Two very good points.

[Susano]

Re: Is TK too expensive?

 

It's not purely a theoretical consideration: I have played in two games where the GM went through the same thought process you have outlined and reduced the cost to 5 points for 5 STR' date=' and there is no doubt that in both games the TK-using characters dominated all others in combat: plus they got useful out of combat abilities from the power as well.[/quote']

 

Yeah, well, in the current revisions of some of those characters, I've been sticking to the standard point levels. Course with all the new build possibilities, Shion is ... uhm... 900 points?