Children

[yamamura]

Recently creating a child DNPC, I thought of this. Children's INT should have the same NCM as adults. Instead they are best represented by having a low number of skills, the Everyman skill PS: Grade School Student (or for younger Preschooler/Tot) and the Phyiscal Limitation: Child Mentality (modeled after Near Human Intelligence for point cost). This is a raw idea and I am curious what everybody else thinks.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Children

 

I like it, and for very smart kids you could give them a disadvantage: "Lack of Experiance" or something.

[Barton]

Re: Children

 

Do not forget Legal minor; no adult legal rights as a disad.

"Yea, kid I don't care you are a superhero but you must be 16 to drive a car"

[MitchellS]

Re: Children

 

You can certainly represent a child that way. I think the decreased int is there to represent comprehension ability [lower int rolls to understand something] and to show that the child really doesn't have access to as much free information [free in that each character literally knows thousands of things they don't have a skill roll for but the GM would allow them to comprehend and utilize with an int roll] as an adult would.

[yamamura]

Re: Children

 

I can see your point Mitchell but going with the books definition of INT, it represents the ability to take in and process information quickly and does not represent knowledge or the lack there of. I believe a child can be just as quick thinking as an adult and that the lack of knowledges should be reflected in a low number of (mental) skills and the fact that a child's mind works differently then adult.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Children

 

Think of all of the situations in which you might say "Make an INT roll".

 

In what percentage of those situations would you give kids a penalty just for being kids?

 

Note: This is fully rhetorical. I don't need to know the answer to that. Just something to think about.

[MitchellS]

Re: Children

 

Think of all of the situations in which you might say "Make an INT roll".

 

In what percentage of those situations would you give kids a penalty just for being kids?

 

Note: This is fully rhetorical. I don't need to know the answer to that. Just something to think about.

As the rules currently stand, no situations. Because the rules already have the built in modifier due to the lower intelligence.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Children

 

I think I agree with Yamamura. As a child a lot of people are quick witted, sometimes I think maybe I was smarter when I was younger. The main reason we view children as having alower intelligence is because we've been brought up to believe that...or so it seems. Frequently children i'm around come up with better solutions to problems than adults, regaurdless of experience simply because they tend to look at the world differently.

 

I would agree that a child can have the same INT as an adult, with lower INT for slower kids, just like adult stats. But a slow kid doesn't grow into a quick witted adult..well not normally. I think that as a player or a GM you should limit what a child knows, not how quickly they process information.

The other thing is, usually when a child doesn't understand something it's because of the symbols (language or choice of words) being used, not lack of ability to understand.

 

Most of the time the difference between adults and kids are behavioral and societal anyway.

[MitchellS]

Re: Children

 

I understand all your points but the difference between small child and adult is 1 point of intelligence in the game. It's the difference between a 7 and an 8. It's not a major difference by any means. The big difference is that the adult gets the 11- roll and the child gets the 10- roll. That seems very reasonable to me.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Children

 

I believe you have all overlooked another important aspect of the function of INT: PER rolls. Granted, that 1 point of INT will have almost no affect on a PER roll; however, it indicates that one of the functions of INT is to NOTICE subtle things about one's environment.

 

Children, with less experience in the real world than any adult, may overlook signs of danger or subtle clues that an adult would pick up on more easily; for example, a 12-year-old doesn't see adults the same way another adult does. Adults can deduce a lot about the lifestyle and background of another adult just by looking at/ hearing that person -- because adults have met so many more people during the course of their lifetimes.

[yamamura]

Re: Children

 

But children notice things adults don't. Also adults tend to regard other adults on prejudiced perceptions and may miss subtle clues that child will pick up on. That being said the child's view point is based more on his mental state, his empathy and knowledges and not on percieving the clues and thus the Physical Limitation.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Children

 

That may be true, but it does stand to reason that adults have a better chance of correctly interpreting, and determining the meaning of, the subtle things they pick up on than children, since they have more life experience.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Children

 

I believe that, just as for animals, a standard Int distribution of values along with a Physical Limitation and possibly Per roll bonuses are appropriate for children. Possibly also some minor Skill differences like:

Conversation: +1; Passive Only (-1);

to mimic the fact that children can be more empathetic (and notice things about the way people are naturally communicating things) but aren't experienced enough to know how to actually pump people for information. Possibly also:

Persuasion: +1; Only vs. Adults (-1/2);

to model how they learn to manipulate their elders.

 

EDIT: P.S. - I might also take away several Everyman Skills and abilities, both as part of their Childlike Mentality Disadvantage and as truly physical Physical Limitations. For example: no PS (unless changed to PS: Child), KS must be geographically small, and -2 hexes of Running.

[Black Rose]

Re: Children

 

I think I agree with Yamamura. As a child a lot of people are quick witted, sometimes I think maybe I was smarter when I was younger. The main reason we view children as having alower intelligence is because we've been brought up to believe that...or so it seems. Frequently children i'm around come up with better solutions to problems than adults, regaurdless of experience simply because they tend to look at the world differently.

 

I would agree that a child can have the same INT as an adult, with lower INT for slower kids, just like adult stats. But a slow kid doesn't grow into a quick witted adult..well not normally. I think that as a player or a GM you should limit what a child knows, not how quickly they process information.

The other thing is, usually when a child doesn't understand something it's because of the symbols (language or choice of words) being used, not lack of ability to understand.

 

Most of the time the difference between adults and kids are behavioral and societal anyway.

 

One of the few things my ex said that I choose to keep with me is "Children are just small people." I'd expand that thought a little: children are small people with less experience. That's all. To compensate for the "adults never listen to you" thing, I'd throw a Soc Lim: Just A Child on the build; you get treated like a child because you are one, regardless of what you can really do.

[yamamura]

Re: Children

 

One of the few things my ex said that I choose to keep with me is "Children are just small people." I'd expand that thought a little: children are small people with less experience. That's all. To compensate for the "adults never listen to you" thing' date=' I'd throw a Soc Lim: Just A Child on the build; you get treated like a child because you are one, regardless of what you can really do.[/quote']

 

That works quite nicely.

[Lamrok]

Re: Children

 

As a parent who spends a lot of time with childen termed as gifted, I can heartily say that the reasoning in this thread does not square with reality. Children do not have the reasoning power that adults do. Their brains haven't fully developed. There are some genius exceptions, of course, but they are far out of whack with reality. If you take a child and an adult and expose them to a learning situation in which neither has an advantage, the adult will win consistently.

 

Here's an example. My second grader is a gifted learner and a ferocious competitor. He plays chess a lot and is the champion of his school, far above the other kids. My wife has never played chess before. She wasn't even sure what the various pieces could do. She was still able to beat him handily - even his practical expereince wasn't enough to overcome her superior adult-wired brain. Any time you call upon a child, even a gifted child, to work through a difficult logical situation, this becomes very evident. In general, children can't think as deeply as adults (A recent study has suggested that they don't completely catch up until their twenties.)

 

My own memories of my childhood would suggest that children are just as "smart" as adults, but that's more a function of childhood myth and biased personal perceptions.

 

Don't trust your own memories from childhood, the media, or various tricks from kids you don't know well. Try playing some logic games with kids some time. You'll quickly see the difference. They can be very quick at the limited things they know - some are very good with language, for example, but when pushed outside their envelopes, they are not just "little adults."

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Children

 

ok, I can understand the reasoning behind not having them be little adults, more than expereince is needed for that. But if the game allows for animals to have the same intelligence score as a normal person but with the disadvantage "animal mentality" I don't see why children can't be modled the same way with the disadvantage "child mentality"

 

Maybe that's just me though

[Lamrok]

Re: Children

 

ok, I can understand the reasoning behind not having them be little adults, more than expereince is needed for that. But if the game allows for animals to have the same intelligence score as a normal person but with the disadvantage "animal mentality" I don't see why children can't be modled the same way with the disadvantage "child mentality"

 

Maybe that's just me though

 

That's a good point.

 

As I watched my three kids grow up with our dogs around the house, I noticed that they seemed to pull even with the dogs, intellectually, at about age one. When a kid is that age, they like the same games and toys a dog does. They also seemd to be about on par with the dog at figuring out simple puzzle-type situations.

 

I think the INT stats of animals are mainly there to compare them to other animals and to prevent a situation in which animals picked up a lot of points with negative INT. INT also drives perception, and animals tend to be fairly strong (compared to humans) in that regard.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Children

 

Great post, Lamrok!

 

I had been mulling this over today -- the childlike intelligence phenomenon -- and I'd just returned to post some additional thoughts on the issue, though I think you nailed it with that post.

 

I'm 22 now, and I can tell you without a doubt -- I'm a lot more intelligent than I was when I was 12, even when I was 16, or hell, even 18. And I don't personally feel that has anything to do with book-learning, or even on-the-job experience, or even time in the military; it has mostly to do with physiological changes, in my opinion.

 

That's all.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Children

 

ok, I can understand the reasoning behind not having them be little adults, more than expereince is needed for that. But if the game allows for animals to have the same intelligence score as a normal person but with the disadvantage "animal mentality" I don't see why children can't be modled the same way with the disadvantage "child mentality"

 

Maybe that's just me though

 

wham bam thank you ma'am, This is definitly the way to go. Psycholoical Disads are the way (IMHO) to represent "not normal" intelligence that still could have high rolls and skills. Like "Alien mentality" "animal mentality", i think it should be represented with "childlike mentality" which is bought off as they age

[yamamura]

Re: Children

 

In a way we are on the same page. I don't disagree that adults think differently then children. I have even seen a TV show that states on the average children don't begin to understand sarcasm unitl around age 10. That being said, I think Physical Limitation: Child Mentality better reflect this then charging double points for every point of INT over 15.

 

Also we sometimes forget that this is a game designed to reflect cinematic reality and not the real world (I am guilty of this in this thread myself). There is tons of example in the media of children that out think adult even though they are still quite young (Ruri Hoshino from Nadesico for example (though she is 11 by the time of the first series and would be just ebyond the NCM)).

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Children

 

yeah, you're right phsysical disadvantage, my bad

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Children

 

s'ok roy, and thnx for the praise.

 

I'm also with yamamura, this is comic book/cinematic reality. You shouldn't have to pay double for your stats just to be a boy genius rather than his grown up counterpart. But a boy genious would still be effected by being young, which is where the physical limitation would come in.

 

I think it solves the problem quite nicely

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Children

 

Physical Limitation: Child Mentality better reflect this then charging double points for every point of INT over 15.

 

You... do realize that 15 is quite a high rating for anyone, let alone a child? I know we tend to think that 10 is the "average" score, but it is in fact the "Heroic average" score. Normals average out a bit lower.

 

*shrug* Just my 7 cents.

[Lamrok]

Re: Children

 

I'm also with yamamura' date=' this is comic book/cinematic reality. You shouldn't have to pay double for your stats just to be a boy genius rather than his grown up counterpart.[/quote']

 

Kids don't have to take "NCM Child". You can build them just like any other Hero, then just call them a kid.