Mental Powers

[schir1964]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Not so much as a direct reply' date=' but this post inspired to me reread the section on Classes of Mind in the original Ultimate Mentalist. I found that the information contained there is much more detailed and understandable, and leaves little to interpretation.[/quote']

Well I'm glad someone finally decided to go back and check. I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one who did such things.

 

Perhaps because I already have read these rules here' date=' my opinion and understanding of what's written in 5E is, for lack of a more appropriate term, more complete than someone who's only read 5E. Unfortunately, Steve Long either didn't want to or was unable to include the entirety of this rule in 5E, which I feel he should have. Basically the entire section of how Mental Powers work made it into 5E, somewhat abbreviated, and it seems like Classes of Mind got the most cut out explination wise.[/quote']

I too was very pleased to see the Optional Rule: Classes of Mind included in the Hero 5th Edition, but then the presentation of it was no where near enough to make it understandable like in the Ultimate Mentalist. Very sad.

 

Anyway, as an Optional Rule is makes the system more flexible.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

I already spoke to this point. To me, it was never new.

 

Much like multi-power attacks, I always thought the system always worked these way. In this case 5th edition was no change, it merely caught up with one of my already existing house rules.

 

Sorry, thought you had been playing prior to 4th-UMA. Though if you had been, there was no reason to believe this was a system rule.

 

HERO does have a cosmology already. That cosmology is the underlying concepts that produce the game design.

 

I think it depends on just what you mean by "cosmology" as far as the extent to which the game has one. The purpose of the game is to remain relatively agnostic on such matters, hence the divorce of SFX. Naturally, some fundamental decisions must be made and in this case the game is scaled around humanoids as the center of activity, so that is a base decision, surely, and influences how animals act (i.e., without some work, animal characters tend to "feel" humanoid). Beyond that, until CoM came up the implied default was that minds tended to act the same, I grant, to the extent that the underlying cosmology played out.

[schir1964]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Sorry' date=' thought you had been playing prior to 4th-UMA. Though if you had been, there was no reason to believe this was a system rule.[/quote']

Actually, I think he said that this kind of thing existed even prior to 4th Editiion of Hero.

 

I have no clue since I only know about 4th Edition Hero and later.

 

- Christopher Mulllins

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Actually, I think he said that this kind of thing existed even prior to 4th Editiion of Hero.

 

I have no clue since I only know about 4th Edition Hero and later.

 

- Christopher Mulllins

I THINK it didn't, and it sounds from others like it didn't. At least I can say it didn't in the core books, that's the only part I can vouch for.

 

This is not at all in insult to Fox1 or questioning him, but it just seems odd to me that someone would intuit this as seeming like it was there as I just can't see where any such thing was implied or would be implied otherwise.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Powers

 

I'd say if it were well explicated and indicated something such as "many settings make the most sense with no Class of Minds differentiation among organic beings' date=' using the construct perhaps simply to differentiate Machines/Automotons," then, while I personally would still disagree with it as being in the core, I would find it at least reasonable.[/quote']

 

My only concern with leaving it in the "main book" is the use of space in the main book. In a world where page count is irrelevant, and we can put everything in one book, all optional rules ought to be there, unless specific to a single genre. In the real world, not every option can be in the main rule, and without assessing all the possibilities, I would prioritize "how to build martial maneuvers" well above CoM.

 

But my overall objection is to how it's presented (core default rather than optional rule), not where it's presented.

[schir1964]

Re: Mental Powers

 

I THINK it didn't, and it sounds from others like it didn't. At least I can say it didn't in the core books, that's the only part I can vouch for.

 

This is not at all in insult to Fox1 or questioning him, but it just seems odd to me that someone would intuit this as seeming like it was there as I just can't see where any such thing was implied or would be implied otherwise.

Yes, I know. But I was waiting to see if anyone else would corroborate his claim that it did.

 

Until such time, I'll remain dubious. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Powers

 

This is not at all in insult to Fox1 or questioning him' date=' but it just seems odd to me that someone would intuit this as seeming like it was there as I just can't see where any such thing was implied or would be implied otherwise.[/quote']

 

I thoughtit was a very creative, and innovative, idea when I read it in 4e Ultimate Mentalist, so I didn't see it being there before either. Maybe Fox1 still has the older books and can provide a page reference or quote for us Alzheimer's victims

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Powers

 

No. In a game without such' date=' I'd consider that they'd just be ignored- like they are in every other game on the market.[/quote']

 

In a agme without CoM, they would simply be ignored (just like most/all other games on the market). In a game without hit locations (which is not every game on the market) they would be ignored. However, the comment you made which I was addressing was your belief that an optional rule should not require character rewrites. I had provided an example of how hit locations could require a rewrite.

 

That's basically stating that there are no classes of minds at all (as the presence of EGO determines if the construction need to be assign a class of mind in the first place), which is your default stance.

 

Sorry, but I've already covered why this is bad design.

 

Well, you've covered why it is your belief this is bad design. You may not see the difference, but many of us posting do.

[schir1964]

Re: Mental Powers

 

My only concern with kleafving it in the "main book" is the use of space in the main book. In a world where page count is irrelevant, and we can put everything in one book, all optional rules ought to be there, unless specific to a single genre. In the real world, not every option can be in the main rule, and without assessing all the possibilities, I would prioritize "how to build martial maneuvers" well above CoM.

 

But my overall objection is to how it's presented (core default rather than optional rule), not where it's presented.

But don't you realize Hugh, that in my world, page count doesn't matter! And who says I live in the real world anyway. (8^D)

 

Yes, perhaps it would have been best to have left in the Ultimate Mentalist 5th Edition, but I still think it could be mentioned as an optional rule that referred you to the Ultimate Mentalist for a full exposition on the subject. Although this kind of thing tends to leave a bad taste in my mouth when I read them.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Powers

 

There are advantages and disadvantages to every power in the book.

 

A throw rock EB may be blocked by base Missile Deflection, while rock thrower's buddy laser lad is unaffected.

 

This is solely a function of SFX.

 

EB boy may find the target's ED too high to affect' date=' which Mental Girl even after losing a dice or two to CoM is still able to get through.[/quote']

 

Even after hitting with a mental power (ie the target has a CoM which allows me to attack them at all - the base rule for CoM does not, but an optional rule for simply reducing effect is included in the discussion), the target can have Mental Defenses. CoM imposes an additional hurdle which must be crossed before a mental power will have any chasnce of affecting the target.

 

And if the four classes of mind are roughly equally common (as the poster to whom I was responding indicates it is in his game), a power affecting only one CoM has between a 25% chance (ie he only has powers that affect one class), to about 75% (he has all powers, but needs to make an educated guess which class the target belongs to - he's likely to be right most times, but not in all cases, many of which will be a tossup between two classes). Another power that works a bit over 75% of the time is one with Act 14-, and it gets a 1/3 cost discount.

 

People are hung up too much on points' date=' and don't realize that value is per the specific encounter. When using CoM, it's up to the GM to enact encounters such that value is achieved- i.e. the same way it is with everything in HERO.[/quote']

 

Let's assume a game focusing on mentalists, and where all classes of mind are represented. This should be where the CoM rules really come into their own. We will assume a 4 person group of PC's, one of whom represents each class of minds. Do you really see mental powers being hugely valuable in such a situation?

 

The opponent must either have adders, or be ineffective against 3/4 of the opposition. Maybe that's OK from a balance perspective - only one PC's powers can affect the opponent since he has only one class of mind. But a non-mental power (which will affect the opponent regardless of his CoM, and which the opponent can use to affect any of the four PC's) seems like a much more effective power choice to me.

 

Of course, the setting could also ban powers (and weapons?) that inflict non-mental damage, or make everyone basically invulnerable to such attacks, but now we're getting into a very specific game setting, not one which would be the focus of a universal rules set.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Yes' date=' perhaps it would have been best to have left in the Ultimate Mentalist 5th Edition, but I still think it could be mentioned as an optional rule that referred you to the Ultimate Mentalist for a full exposition on the subject. Although this kind of thing tends to leave a bad taste in my mouth when I read them.[/quote']

 

I would agree this could be done. However, I think the base rules should then have enough detail to formulate the rule. If there's not going to be enough detail to allow the rule to be used reasonably, and consistently (and Zornwil's paragraph a bit back would do it), it should not be in the book. That said, I would see nothing wrong with including Zornwil's sample para in the main rules, and elaborating and providing further options in The Ultimate Mentalist.

 

Though, given the length of this thread, perhaps a separate "Ultimate Classes of Minds" book would be a better idea

[Fox1]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Sorry' date=' thought you had been playing prior to 4th-UMA. Though if you had been, there was no reason to believe this was a system rule.[/quote']

 

I've played since the 1st edition hit the shelves.

 

I must be phrasing this badly...

 

I've ALWAYS since the day 1st was for sale used a "Classes of Minds" rules. It was a house rule.

 

5th edition and 4th UMA made my house rule part of the official system- but it didnt' change anything in my game. It just reduced the number of house rules I had to maintain.

 

 

 

I think it depends on just what you mean by "cosmology" as far as the extent to which the game has one. The purpose of the game is to remain relatively agnostic on such matters, hence the divorce of SFX.

 

If that was the judgement, it fails.

 

Missile Deflection is costed solely on SPX, Various enchances senses are costed solely on SPX. Classes of Minds are costed on SPX.

 

Such a cosmology has been part of the system for a very long time. It's impossible for it not to be.

[Fox1]

Re: Mental Powers

 

In a agme without CoM, they would simply be ignored (just like most/all other games on the market). In a game without hit locations (which is not every game on the market) they would be ignored.

 

Sigh.

 

Your example is stupid beyond belief. The concept of hit locations is often ignore in rpg design because its assumed to be abstracted into the damage resolution mechanic. You roll low damage- you hit something unimportant. You roll high damage- you hit something vital.

 

Such abstraction cannot be used for classes of Minds. No degree of low/high rolls can fill in for "you can't affect machine minds".

 

Thus CoM cannot be ignored. The concept must be put forth and a GM decison on how it's to be used must be made.

 

 

However, the comment you made which I was addressing was your belief that an optional rule should not require character rewrites. I had provided an example of how hit locations could require a rewrite..

 

I don't consider your "hit location power" to be a valid example. I consider it poor use of the core game system, an illogical build, counter to the core mechanics of the game, and just plan stupid besides.

 

 

Well, you've covered why it is your belief this is bad design. You may not see the difference, but many of us posting do.

 

I couldn't care less about what mindset others are fixed on, or how many there are so fixed. I'm only here to present a different viewpoint to any who are undecided.

[Fox1]

Re: Mental Powers

 

This is solely a function of SFX..

 

As in the end of the day is CoM.

 

SPX as mechanical build determinate is a core part of the HERO system.

 

 

 

CoM imposes an additional hurdle which must be crossed before a mental power will have any chasnce of affecting the target.

 

I know.

 

That's way I used the rule long before it was every published. It's a good thing.

 

 

Let's assume a game focusing on mentalists, and where all classes of mind are represented. This should be where the CoM rules really come into their own. We will assume a 4 person group of PC's, one of whom represents each class of minds. Do you really see mental powers being hugely valuable in such a situation?

 

 

They certainly would be in a campaign I ran.

 

If however you can't handle the problem, the rules inform you that you are free to define your own classes.

[schir1964]

Re: Mental Powers

 

I couldn't care less about what mindset others are fixed on' date=' or how many there are so fixed. I'm only here to present a different viewpoint to any who are undecided.[/quote']

I was undecided at the beginning of this thread, but thanks to you and others here, I was convinced that the rules would be better served if this was an Optional Rule instead of the way it is presented now. Thank you.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Missile Deflection is costed solely on SPX, Various enchances senses are costed solely on SPX. Classes of Minds are costed on SPX.

 

Such a cosmology has been part of the system for a very long time. It's impossible for it not to be.

 

Missile deflection, enhanced senses and life support are, to some extent costed on SFX. If you have a better model for them, I'm open to hearing it. There are real world analogues for each of the three.

 

Missile deflection could just as easily carry a single cost for all ranged attacks, and we'll add limitations to it when it affects less than all. I would have no problem with that change, and it would also enable the limitation to be varied in a game where certain attacks are more common (eg. how many bullets does one see in Fantasy Hero?)

 

Life support is, by nature, a series of discrete effects, all of which are things that will kill an ordinary person. It's also been through a lot of iterations and, while I feel the current version is overpriced for "full life support" utuility, I can live with the result. It's certainly a lot better than the pre-4e structures.

 

Enhanced senses are enhancements of existing senses, for the most part. It's tough to enhance sight without a special effect involving sight.

 

Mental powers have no real world analogue. They worked just fine without incorporating SFX since 1st Ed until someone decided to include the Classes of Mind option as a default. It is unnecessary, and it imposes a "how mental powers work" assumption I could live without.

 

None of thesethers impose a "this is how the character's powers work" requirement. Missile deflection could be bracelets, a mystic force field or a superdodge, or any of a number of other SFX. The idea that all aliens (but no one else) is affected by one set, and all animals (mosquitos, lizards, chimps and dolphins) by another, and each so dissimilar that humans are excluded, is not germane to all games, nor to much of the source materil. It does impose a "this is how the character's mental powers work" requirement.

 

And even if I agreed with you that other powers inpose a cosmology (I do not), I would argue that they, too, should be adjusted to remove cosmology. The system is a toolkit, intended to be as versatile as possible. A system which supports games where classes of mind are included, and games where they are not is more versatile than one which supports only one or the other, but not both.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Powers

 

DISCLAIMER: I normally try to reign in my own tendency to tactlessness. Normally.

 

Your example is stupid beyond belief.

 

Your cogent logic and tactful presentation is the envy of us all.

 

The concept of hit locations is often ignore in rpg design because its assumed to be abstracted into the damage resolution mechanic. You roll low damage- you hit something unimportant. You roll high damage- you hit something vital.

 

Hero has the optional rule. Does it fail your test for a "good" optional rule or not?

 

Such abstraction cannot be used for classes of Minds. No degree of low/high rolls can fill in for "you can't affect machine minds".

 

There is no reason that, in every game, across every genre, mentalists are, by default, prohibited from affecting the minds of self-aware machines. By including CoM as an optional rule, those campaigns where this is considered valuable can incorporate the optional rule and those where it is not considered valuable can ignore it.

 

Try, just for a moment, to imagine that a game you are not directly controlling might, just might, have a valid reason for existing, even if it departs from your ideal of "the perfect game".

 

I don't consider your "hit location power" to be a valid example. I consider it poor use of the core game system' date=' an illogical build, counter to the core mechanics of the game, and just plan stupid besides.[/quote']

 

It's a fairly straightforward example of use of the mechanics, and forms the basis of the Vorpal Blade published for Hero some years ago. Your description says more about your own closed-mindedness and ego than anything else, at least in my opinion. The others posting this thread, and those reading with no comments to add, are fully capable of drawing their own conclusions.

 

I couldn't care less about what mindset others are fixed on' date=' or how many there are so fixed. I'm only here to present a different viewpoint to any who are undecided.[/quote']

 

Your "me-centricness" was noted long ago, and required no explanation, however I am sure the clarification will be useful to new board members who lack experience with your personal style.

 

I do not consider classes of mind as a concept to be invalid, by the way, despite the fact it is one I disagree with. It is one of many valid ways to view mental powers. With no real world basis from which to draw conclusions, and no consistency among the source material, there are dozens of valid approaches. I do, however, consider the suggestion the system should restrict itself to one narrow interpretation as a default is a poor one, inconsistent with the vision of a universal toolkit.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Missile deflection, enhanced senses and life support are, to some extent costed on SFX. If you have a better model for them, I'm open to hearing it. There are real world analogues for each of the three.

 

Missile deflection could just as easily carry a single cost for all ranged attacks, and we'll add limitations to it when it affects less than all. I would have no problem with that change, and it would also enable the limitation to be varied in a game where certain attacks are more common (eg. how many bullets does one see in Fantasy Hero?)

 

Life support is, by nature, a series of discrete effects, all of which are things that will kill an ordinary person. It's also been through a lot of iterations and, while I feel the current version is overpriced for "full life support" utuility, I can live with the result. It's certainly a lot better than the pre-4e structures.

 

Enhanced senses are enhancements of existing senses, for the most part. It's tough to enhance sight without a special effect involving sight.

 

Mental powers have no real world analogue. They worked just fine without incorporating SFX since 1st Ed until someone decided to include the Classes of Mind option as a default. It is unnecessary, and it imposes a "how mental powers work" assumption I could live without.

 

None of thesethers impose a "this is how the character's powers work" requirement. Missile deflection could be bracelets, a mystic force field or a superdodge, or any of a number of other SFX. The idea that all aliens (but no one else) is affected by one set, and all animals (mosquitos, lizards, chimps and dolphins) by another, and each so dissimilar that humans are excluded, is not germane to all games, nor to much of the source materil. It does impose a "this is how the character's mental powers work" requirement.

 

And even if I agreed with you that other powers inpose a cosmology (I do not), I would argue that they, too, should be adjusted to remove cosmology. The system is a toolkit, intended to be as versatile as possible. A system which supports games where classes of mind are included, and games where they are not is more versatile than one which supports only one or the other, but not both.

Re missile deflection/reflection, I think there's been great suggestions on the board divorcing this more from SFX and making it generic, have to add some warning signs for things I've seen but seems to work.

 

Re Life Support, I think building some basic Invulnerability or Immunity power that has rules on how to cost it according to SFX commonality and then just showing a few examples. It could have a tier for "Not immune to actual attacks but the environmental conditions" for LS and then perhaps a higher level IF one wanted to incorporate such. But you could just leave it at the LS bar.

 

Just stray thoughts. But the real problems we run into here are two-fold: commerciality (which wins, really), wherein people expect real-world heroic things to be modelled easily; and convenience, which isn't merely about commerciality, but really about Play Experience and trying to reasonably accomodate that without ruining the system core.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

I'm sure most people have tuned out. FYI to all, I'm going to start a new thread that asks about CoM practices, not debating its utility.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Damn me for being offline for two days!

 

That's a good point in terms of actual game play, even taking the rule at face value and simply accepting it. I wonder how people deal with the factor of having to guess, or if NPCs are just so frequently in the single CoM used by PCs that it simply is so rarely likely it's not an issue.?

 

Dust Raven, how is it in your group?

 

There is no guessing. In the various Champions games I've run, I've let the players know ahead of time how classes of minds would be applied in the game, and they have build their characters accordingly. For the most part, mentalists still could only affect one class of mind, so they ether worked or didn't and the mentalist found out when he tried. If they could affect more than one class, the adder was either on all such powers, or they bought a Detect Class of Mind enhanced sense. Most campaigns I've run dealt with one primary class of mind (human) and only involve others as a unique plot point.

 

That being said, I use the optional rule allowing other classes of minds to be affected at a penalty (which reminds me, I need to change that on my house rules... it still has the rule I was using in 4th edition).

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Yeah, damn you! What's more important than the boards?

 

Thank you.

[Fox1]

Re: Mental Powers

 

That being said' date=' I use the optional rule allowing other classes of minds to be affected at a penalty (which reminds me, I need to change that on my house rules... it still has the rule I was using in 4th edition).[/quote']

 

I am considering allowing EB to ignore CoM, although it makes little sense. It does seem to be genre in the settings I use.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Fox1, do you mean a BOECV EB or if not, what do you mean?

[Fox1]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Fox1' date=' do you mean a BOECV EB or if not, what do you mean?[/quote']

 

Ego Blast.

 

Was thinking faster than I was typing.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Ah, right, yes, should have realized anyway, thx.