Mental Powers

[Fox1]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Maybe one day' date=' when I grow up, I will understand.[/quote']

 

Unlikely I think. Too much investment in your current mindset.

[Fox1]

Re: Mental Powers

 

It's inetersting that every discussion (and tesuji's was an excellent one) of a character whose concept clearly justifies' date=' within the campiagn parameters, being of a different class of mind is met with a response of, basically, "the player should find another character to play"..[/quote']

 

As "Alien Class" minds to me references things like 'Great Old Ones' or cosmic beings like "Fate", I don't frankly see a problem. They are already denied to the player for reasons far more important than classes of minds.

 

But to say "No, you can't play an alien-class mind" solely because of the class of mind rules indicates, to me, that these rules alone curtail, rather than enhance, flexibility.

 

Don't define Alien Class minds in such a way that you encounter problems.

 

 

The basis of the Hero system is that benefits to ncharacters are statted out in terms of character points, not alklowed to NPC's but denied to PC's for balance reasons.

 

"Not allowed to PCs" has already existed in the rules for a very long time- Automations.

 

In addition, many GMs over the years have commonly denied 'Stop' powers from PCs, but allow them to NPCs. Other deny even standard powers, abilities and skills- all depending upon the setting.

 

 

There is nothing new here.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Powers

 

As "Alien Class" minds to me references things like 'Great Old Ones' or cosmic beings like "Fate"' date=' I don't frankly see a problem. They are already denied to the player for reasons far more important than classes of minds. [/quote']

 

Which solves aliens for you (but not those who apply the "official" ruling in the FAQ). What about a Robot? Note that Automatons are immune to all mental powers anyway, so only Robots with Ego can be affected as machine class minds (outside electronic devices, of course). Or do we define all robots to be Human-class as well.

 

Moving on to alien minds specifically, if the class is made as rare as you define it, why are Mental Powers which only affect alien minds valued the same as mental powers which only affect human minds? Seems to me you won't get much utility out of those "only affects aliens" mental powers. This is something a GM could effectively give them anyway, whether becuase they don't worry abpout points for NPC's or by giving the NPC the points to have that immunity.

 

Also, does that mean Great Old Ojnes and Cosmic Entities generally can't affect anyone who is not an alien with their own mental powers? If everyone who falls into a divergent class of mind is "deemed" to have the adder, then the system really does do nothing but give these beings free immunity to mental powers.

 

"Not allowed to PCs" has already existed in the rules for a very long time- Automations..

 

 

To my mind, automatons are not PC's for the simplistic reason that PC's should be self-motivated. As I have stated before, I would allow a PC to purchase certain powers generally restricted to automatons. Given you feel points are irrelevant to NPC's, why would they be costed out otherwise? However, I would not allow a PC who is not free-willed/self-motivated, so the reason most automatons are immune to mental powers disappears for a player character.

 

In addition' date=' many GMs over the years have commonly denied 'Stop' powers from PCs, but allow them to NPCs. Other deny even standard powers, abilities and skills- all depending upon the setting.[/quote']

 

Many more GM's don't play Hero at all. Should the rules be redesigned to their preferences? Seriously, the system cannot (and should not) preclude individual GM's from exercising their judgement, but they also should not impose a framework which restricts flexibility of the game. That, to me, is why they are "stop sign" powers and not "NPC only" powers under the rules.

[Fox1]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Which solves aliens for you (but not those who apply the "official" ruling in the FAQ). What about a Robot?.

 

Self aware thinking robots that are players fall into the 'human' mind group in my campaign. So do most NPCs.

 

There is however a NPCs type of AI that is beyond the ken of human understanding- these are the machine group (and thus NPC only).

 

Moving on to alien minds specifically, if the class is made as rare as you define it, why are Mental Powers which only affect alien minds valued the same as mental powers which only affect human minds?

 

You make a classic error in attempt to match cost with rate of appearance. Think instead of making cost equal to value.

 

Just how special and wonderful is it to be the one human being able to read the mind of a "Great Old One" without going insane? I don't know about you, but in mind that would be major cool and would vastly change the landscape of the game- so much so that I likely wouldn't allow it.

 

On the NPC side, alien class minds often deal with alien class minds the same way humans deal with humans. They would get their point value just fine, although as NPC this is rather unimportant.

 

 

To my mind, automatons are not PC's for the simplistic reason that PC's should be self-motivated.

 

I don't consider Animals, Machines, or Alien to be self-motivated. I see not difference.

 

 

As I have stated before, I would allow a PC to purchase certain powers generally restricted to automatons. Given you feel points are irrelevant to NPC's, why would they be costed out otherwise?

 

I only cost NPCs to insure that they obey the rules. That is, they can in fact be constructed. The point total otherwise is unimportant to me.

 

 

 

Many more GM's don't play Hero at all. Should the rules be redesigned to their preferences? Seriously, the system cannot (and should not) preclude individual GM's from exercising their judgement, but they also should not impose a framework which restricts flexibility of the game. That, to me, is why they are "stop sign" powers and not "NPC only" powers under the rules.

 

I consider a version of HERO lacking CoM to be restrict my flexibility- it requires me to take extra steps for no value.

 

Actually I take that back.

 

I'm more than willing to House Rule away anything that causes me problems. I'm simply worried that changes in HERO will reach a point where I'll have to design my own game due to the weight of House Rules needed to correct mistakes the changes in design. Fifth edition and the FAQ has been a warning sign that this may become neccessary.

[schir1964]

Re: Mental Powers

 

I consider a version of HERO lacking CoM to be restrict my flexibility- it requires me to take extra steps for no value.

 

Actually I take that back.

 

I'm more than willing to House Rule away anything that causes me problems. I'm simply worried that changes in HERO will reach a point where I'll have to design my own game due to the weight of House Rules needed to correct mistakes the changes in design. Fifth edition and the FAQ has been a warning sign that this may become neccessary.

I'm only responding to this since it would appear that you are either ignoring or simply haven't been reading the posts thoroughly.

 

Hugh and others have been suggesting that the Class of Minds simply be moved to "Optional Rule" status not remove it entirely. Class of Minds would reside alongside many other options in the main rules, just as Hit Location is an optional rule. Hit location is included since it is a staple of many settings/genres. Class of Minds, the broad concept, is also a staple of many settings/genres.

 

How does this restrict your game design?

 

The fact that you are ignoring the optional rule thrust of this debate is what I find curious. Hugh nor others here, as far as I can tell, don't want to restrict flexibility, they want to enhance it.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Self aware thinking robots that are players fall into the 'human' mind group in my campaign. So do most NPCs.

 

There is however a NPCs type of AI that is beyond the ken of human understanding- these are the machine group (and thus NPC only).

 

So, basically, there's Human, Animal and then "only the rarest of the rare". I don't see a need for a core rule to address the rarities.

 

You make a classic error in attempt to match cost with rate of appearance. Think instead of making cost equal to value.

 

Just how special and wonderful is it to be the one human being able to read the mind of a "Great Old One" without going insane? I don't know about you, but in mind that would be major cool and would vastly change the landscape of the game- so much so that I likely wouldn't allow it.

 

Frequency of use is a factor in utility. Would you spend character points on an ability unlikely to come up?

 

And your statement reads, to me, like "You can have the power only if the power won't ever come up". hmmm...Ask if you can buy the "alien" adder. If Fox1 says no, start planning around cosmic entities...

 

In any case, the ability to read the mind does not equate to "read without going insane". That mental damage shield transform only works if Great C is hit with a mental attack. If he can't be targeted due to the Class of Mind rules, only other aliens can read his mind at all. If you want the typical mind reader to be driven insane by reading Big C's mind, the typical mentalist first needs to be able to read it. Besides, he's an alien so that mental damage shield should reasonably default to affect alien class minds, not human class minds!

 

On the NPC side' date=' alien class minds often deal with alien class minds the same way humans deal with humans. They would get their point value just fine, although as NPC this is rather unimportant.[/quote']

 

You still haven't answered the question whether your Alien NPC's have mental powers that only work on other aliens, and not on the PC's, who are all human class minds.

 

I don't consider Animals' date=' Machines, or Alien to be self-motivated. I see not difference.[/quote']

 

You MAKE machines non-self motivating by excluding self-aware machines from the definition of machine class minds. Similarly, you define self-motivation and Alien minds such that they are mutually exclusive. Asn for animals, once again it depends on definition. To me, the game defines "self motivated" as "pssessing an ego score". Animals AI's and aliens have Ego, and are self-motivated under that definition. [Anyone who thinks animals are not self-motivated would do well to spend some time with a cat ]

 

I consider a version of HERO lacking CoM to be restrict my flexibility- it requires me to take extra steps for no value.

 

Actually I take that back.

 

I'm more than willing to House Rule away anything that causes me problems. I'm simply worried that changes in HERO will reach a point where I'll have to design my own game due to the weight of House Rules needed to correct mistakes the changes in design. Fifth edition and the FAQ has been a warning sign that this may become neccessary.

 

OK, first off, CoM as a core rule is exclusively a 5e concept. The idea only arose in the dying days of 4e in the Ultimate Mentalist. So, presumably, the creator of classes of mind had something entirely different in mind that yuou when he made the rules, based on the FAQ's definition of an "alien".

 

The fact that no one is suggesting classes of mind be banned (and how does one "ban" a construct in a toolkit), only that they do not merit inclusion as a core, default rule. Is your game world so brittle that the simple reclassification of a concept from "default" to "optional" will crush it?

 

Replacement of "CoM is the default" with "here are options, including CoM, for how mentakl powers might work in a given game; various GM's will doubtless create their own frameworks" seems to me to enhance, not restrict, flexibility.

[Fox1]

Re: Mental Powers

 

So, basically, there's Human, Animal and then "only the rarest of the rare". I don't see a need for a core rule to address the rarities.

.

 

I certainly see the need for the split between Human and Animal in most settings. The Machine and Alien split is just an logical outgrowth of that. Useful in some setting and not others, but they exist and should be accounted for.

 

In concept the idea is that you can't use Mental Powers on that which you can't 'see'. In this respect the add is no different than the adders found in Missile Deflection or the Enhanced senses. Adding Lasers to Missile Deflection in some setting is useless and key in others, so I'm not worried about the same problem with Alien class minds.

 

 

 

 

Frequency of use is a factor in utility. Would you spend character points on an ability unlikely to come up?

 

Because I'd get value beyond the typical measure when it did come up of course.

 

Is that a completely alien thought to you for some reason?

 

 

 

And your statement reads, to me, like "You can have the power only if the power won't ever come up".

 

Then you are reading it wrong.

 

 

In any case, the ability to read the mind does not equate to "read without going insane".

 

Depends now upon how I buy the creature doesn't it? Don't assume too much.

 

 

 

You still haven't answered the question whether your Alien NPC's have mental powers that only work on other aliens, and not on the PC's, who are all human class minds.

 

Of course some do.

 

There are real benefits to Mind Link, Telepathy and even Mind Scanning limited to alien on alien. Same for other abilities too for that matter- they are not all friends you know.

 

 

 

You MAKE machines non-self motivating by excluding self-aware machines from the definition of machine class minds. Similarly, you define self-motivation and Alien minds such that they are mutually exclusive. Asn for animals, once again it depends on definition.

 

I'm the GM for may campaign, as the rulebook notes definition in this case is completely my decision.

 

Animals, Machines, and Aliens thus are not self-motivating (i.e. something that the players can have complete decision making for) according to my definition.

 

 

OK, first off, CoM as a core rule is exclusively a 5e concept.

 

Link the Multi-power attack, that may or may not be the case.

 

Whatever the facts of that however, CoM has been the method in use in my campaigns since the day CHAMPIONS first appeared on the game shelf.

 

 

The fact that no one is suggesting classes of mind be banned (and how does one "ban" a construct in a toolkit), only that they do not merit inclusion as a core, default rule. Is your game world so brittle that the simple reclassification of a concept from "default" to "optional" will crush it

 

 

My game will likely exist longer than HERO will be published. Nothing will crush it.

 

However changes here and changes there can in total add up to a point where I will no longer buy future additions. Changing this would be one more straw on that's camel's back.

[schir1964]

Re: Mental Powers

 

However changes here and changes there can in total add up to a point where I will no longer buy future additions. Changing this would be one more straw on that's camel's back.

This is faulty logic. Based on this, the Class of Minds rule shiould be removed for the very reason that many others may stop buying future additions by the inclusion of such things.

 

Both statements make about the same amount of sense, and would seem that you would want to remove the rule based on the second one. Good for you! (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Fox1]

Re: Mental Powers

 

This is faulty logic. Based on this' date=' the Class of Minds rule shiould be removed for the very reason that many others may stop buying future additions by the inclusion of such things.[/quote']

 

That's their choice. I would expect them to make it.

[schir1964]

Re: Mental Powers

 

That's their choice. I would expect them to make it.

And this is the only reason why you think that making this rule optional would restrict your flexibility is that someday down the road with other changes you might stop buying the books.

 

That was the question Hugh and I asked and this is your answer. Ok.

 

Enjoy your games.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Fox1]

Re: Mental Powers

 

And this is the only reason why you think that making this rule optional would restrict your flexibility is that someday down the road with other changes you might stop buying the books.

 

A couple of points of good game design:

 

First-

 

The first key requirement of optional rules in a point build system is that they do not require you to reconstruct your character builds. Rather, they add on or modify the results of existing builds.

 

 

Second-

 

Optional rules should by nature be *more* complex than the default rules. Default rules should be simple, allowing one to layer in addition work and options to suit one's taste.

 

 

 

The difference between a default that says "put limits on all your mental powers and/buy defense for all your animal, machines, and aliens (which have to have their own limits btw)" and a simple 4 item list and 10 point adders is immense. And it breaks both the above rules.

 

 

I have no use for a game that is consistently decreasing the quality of its design.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

I don't consider Animals ... to be self-motivated. I see not difference. (snippage)

 

You've never dealt with cats I take it!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Powers

 

I think it would have potential if it were explored in other fashions, divorcing it from the strict bio-genetic basis it has taken on.

 

However, "GM fiat' is either involved to change it, or one uses the default. The default doesn't at all "allow for any number of possible settings" and so on. At least it doesnt apply to a single setting I've GMed, it might apply to a setting I've played in, I'm not sure at the moment.

 

There is a HUGE difference between a GM fiat and a GM using the rules. And the GM doesn't "change" anything, just uses the rules... adjusts the settings if you will.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Powers

 

So should we have default magic classes in the main book? Why not' date=' by extension what is the difference?[/quote']

 

If you do not understand the difference, you do not understand the class of minds rule.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

(snips)

 

Just how special and wonderful is it to be the one human being able to read the mind of a "Great Old One" without going insane? I don't know about you' date=' but in mind that would be major cool and would vastly change the landscape of the game- so much so that I likely wouldn't allow it.[/quote']

 

This whole interpretive issues on aliens is a good indication of confusion with the labelings and therefore the PURPOSE of CoM. If you are taking "alien" to be more exotic than simply people from another planet, and you are (understandably) assigning it a high value, you can excuse the lack of commonality. But is that really what the rules meant? Others don't seem to think so. The lack of design clarity limits usefulness in adaptation.

 

I'm more than willing to House Rule away anything that causes me problems. I'm simply worried that changes in HERO will reach a point where I'll have to design my own game due to the weight of House Rules needed to correct mistakes the changes in design. Fifth edition and the FAQ has been a warning sign that this may become neccessary.

 

Thing is, CoM was added brand new, so in this case you're saying it was a correct level of minutiae for it to get into, that this in itself is the opposite of a warning sign as you think they got this right.

 

On a more serious note than above, presuming animals aren't "self-motivated" is something that gets into almost the same territory as assigning a cosmology to HERO. It simply isn't a valid game assumption either way as it intrudes on both heroic fiction SFX (which is littered with self-motivated animals) AND reality (wherein people have contrasting opinions on such matters, and I'm not referring to popular thinking but even among academics).

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

I'm only responding to this since it would appear that you are either ignoring or simply haven't been reading the posts thoroughly.

 

Hugh and others have been suggesting that the Class of Minds simply be moved to "Optional Rule" status not remove it entirely. Class of Minds would reside alongside many other options in the main rules, just as Hit Location is an optional rule. Hit location is included since it is a staple of many settings/genres. Class of Minds, the broad concept, is also a staple of many settings/genres.

 

How does this restrict your game design?

 

The fact that you are ignoring the optional rule thrust of this debate is what I find curious. Hugh nor others here, as far as I can tell, don't want to restrict flexibility, they want to enhance it.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

Well said, Hit Locations is well-respected as options go, it's no bad thing at all.

 

And I'd personally like to see simply 2-3 more paragraphs in CoM just to address the purpose and adaptation, then it'd be basically great as an optional rule.

 

PS - and I wouldn't have been convinced of even that without this thread.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

So, basically, there's Human, Animal and then "only the rarest of the rare". I don't see a need for a core rule to address the rarities.

 

Frequency of use is a factor in utility. Would you spend character points on an ability unlikely to come up?

 

 

I otherwise agree, but plucked these out as I would argue with this, as stated. I could see (suspending how I feel about CoM and simply referring to it on its own terms) Human, Animal, Machine, and Exotic if the idea were explained that the utility should be very high for the Exotic category to justify its equality in commonality. The suggestion might even be that encounters with Exotic should typically be major plot points or the like. Of course some comment should be made that Animal is assumed to be as useful and as common as Human, and if the GM does not run a world like that he may wish to restucture.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

I certainly see the need for the split between Human and Animal in most settings. (snip)

 

I don't. In fact early on in Champions I ran counting animal minds as portions of human minds as they were just a lot less complexity so easier to manage. This came out of things I'd read in sci-fi, such as the way Asimov's aliens "saw" (perceived) beings. Straight from common material for sci-fi. To me, in that context (which I don't use in some other games), mental powers basically simply worked better against less complex minds and less well against very complex minds. Naturally one could argue that gave advantages to beings with more complex minds, but I would have basically just required more points for those beings, and it simply wasn't a part of the game world anyway.

 

And this is a key example, which I wished I'd articulated before, as to why I can directly point to CoM is heavily pushing SFX in a way not helpful as well as it does not reflect source material in some meaningfully critical mass.

 

However changes here and changes there can in total add up to a point where I will no longer buy future additions. Changing this would be one more straw on that's camel's back.

 

Don't you think that's just silly as this was hardly available to you for long at all out of your HERO gaming experience?

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

There is a HUGE difference between a GM fiat and a GM using the rules. And the GM doesn't "change" anything' date=' just uses the rules... adjusts the settings if you will.[/quote']

There's a reason I put it in quotes (I don't use quotes to emphasize, that's not what they are made for), as it's a misused dirty word as there's really nothing wrong with it, but the point here is that in fact it does require change because altough the rules do say that this may be modified, it has nonetheless simply plunked down a default with no explanation. So I can only guess at the explanation, and I can THINK I"m using the rules, and I MIGHT be, but I can't be sure.

 

PS - a good example being that I suspect that they mean Animals and Humans are roughly equal in utility, but I can't be (and I'm not entirely) sure.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

If you do not understand the difference' date=' you do not understand the class of minds rule.[/quote']

Conceptually, by extension, as I have asked, what is the difference?

 

Class of Minds attempts to simulate the way mental powers work in settings by divvying them up according to broad ways they work in the source material, I assume. (If that's not the case, then I don't know why they made such a specific default to it) It then assigns a matrix of how they affect each other (with an optional system, the -3 thing).

 

While magic is more varied, would be more complex, and therefore probably not suitable simply on that basis, setting that aside, by conceptually extending this (new) train of thought in HERO, why not do that for Magic? Heck, why not do it for general SFX, if one didn't mind having a 1000 classes? Obviously the latter is way beyond the pragmatic breaking point, but I am asking this question on purely a conceptual basis.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Powers

 

EB has to have a cost. The system needs to set one, or the system is not playable. We can then debate as to what the "standard cost" should be, but I don't think anyone would argue that popwers, stats, etc. ought not to have a standardized cost.

 

The mechanics of mental powers, however, can be defined quite adequately without use of Classes of Mind. It is not an essential rule without which the system is disfunctional. It should be an option for framing the manner in which mental powers work.

 

Would you support a rule which provided that Energy Blasts, by default, affect one "Class of Body", with the basic "Classes of body" being "Flesh and Bone", "Mineral", "Amorphous" and "Liquid/Gaseous", and you pay +10 points as an adder to add another "Class of Body" your energy blast affects?

 

It may be a very good structure for a gamne setting where this is a key differentiating factor. It neither needs to be nor should be in the core rules.

Mental Powers can also be defined using classes of mind. It's not essential to do without. Doing without it should be an option for graming how Mental Powers work. Oh wait... it is.

 

We know how physical mass works. We have no idea how an intelligent mind other than that of a human being might or might work. Your assumption that all minds should be identical is unreasonable, illogical and unfounded. Granted, my (and apparently Steve Long's) assumption is also unfounded (how could it be?), but it's reasonable and logical. The rules (all of them) take this logical understand of how physical mass, intelligence/sentience, and whatever all works. You just disagree with a logical conclusion you don't seem to believe in.

 

 

To SFX, we clearly disagree on whether this is SFX driven. In my view, Classes of M

 

(a) The attacker mentally rearranges the target's mind to change his will and desires. CoM works fine here.

Either method works fine here.

 

( The attacker alters neuron flow so the target lacks any free will and will take whatever action is suggested to him by the attacker. Anyone with neurons should be affected (humans, animals, many aliens, no mechanical minds or AI's).

 

CoM at work. Only sentient minds possess true free will in the first place (animals act on instinct, not desire or conscious thought). Any sentient creature who's thought is not dependant on neurons would fall into the alien class (or a defined class for whatever it's thoughts do depend on). Mechanical mind would be an example class that depends on electron based thought.

 

© The attacker modifies electrical impulses to force the target's body to comply with hiis wishes (should work on mechanical, human and animals, plus aliens whose biology uses electrical impulses to send messages).

Only if the mentalist knows how to manipulate each type of mind. The electrical impulses may act differently in machines than in humans, and animal minds lack some impulses humans have. There is always the possibility of a race that relays information in their brain some other way, such as with light, vibration or the use of some other particle. These can be accounted for with Classes of mind.

 

(d) The attacker's mind magically superimposes itself over the target's mind and spirit/soul, superseding its ability to instruct the body to take actions. (Deadman, Jericho) Who this affects depends on campaign backdrop - do animals have souls? Do aliens? But if Dr. Diaboliocal's soul is absent from his body (it's been sold to the devil), he should be unaffected. And if "even androids have souls", then androids should be affected.

Too many philosophical and religious implications here for a debate on what this could be. It could be a case of a campaign where there is but one class of mind (anything with an EGO) or one that differentiates between soul and souless beings. There is also the question of whether or not such a being could "possess" inanimate objects with movable parts (such as a corpse, or a bulldozzer).

 

(e) Illusions? The attacker injects the target with a psychedelic drug. This should affect anything (human, animal, some aliens) with a body chemistry the drug will affect.

No longer based on EGO and likely based on CON.

 

Meanwhile, an Ego Transfer is effective at stealing the mental strength of any target lacking power defense, even if their minds are completely incompatible with the attacker's.

And you can buy a Drain BODY defined as a disentrgation ray, only the target heals rather quickly if not totally destroyed.

 

 

 

By placing classes of mind as a core rule, the standard is set that mental powers are not universal by default. Presenting it as an optional rule would not prevent anyone from adopting that approach.

 

It could be presented as an option in the core rules, or as an option in another book. I favour the latter. Yes, this means there are options outside the core rules. How are Classes of Mind more essential to the game system than the optional rules for vehicles in TUV, the rules for ranged martial arts in UMA, or the rules for building your own martial arts maneuvers in UMA? Should the "spell" limitation from Fantasy Hero be in the core rules? How about the discussion on "invulnerability" from that same book? Should 5e2r be an encyclopedia covering all rules, standard and optional, presented anywhere in the Hero library? I don't see Classes of Mind as more seminal to the toolbox than any pf the above iutems. If anything, I would suggest the martial arts construction rules are far more relevant to a core rules system.

 

Each of these thing you mention are setting/genre specific. Classes of Minds is system wide. Though modified setting to setting and campaign to campaign (like starting points for PCs), the rule itself applies in nearly all cases.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

In fact, separately, I would like to elaborate here:

 

"(If that's not the case, then I don't know why they made such a specific default to it) "

 

I say this because in point of fact, why would the rules not instead state something such as (but better, I'm not spending the time to write this up properly), "Settings normally have beings divided into different "Classes of Minds". A Class of Mind is a broad group of beings whose minds may, assuming Mental Powers are employed, interact. Beings not in the same class cannot interact, without using a +10 Adder to purchase that additional Class of Minds. GMs should strive to ensure there is balance among the Classes of Minds. The default for many modern and sci-fi games are Alien, Machine, Animal, and Human. The Machine Class of Minds is a good example of a creative use of Class of Minds to represent..."

 

Because it doesn't take much at all to address it this way if in fact the rules weren't deliberately stating "here is a standard for a majority, if not most, campaigns," which, given the lack of any such approach as I have described, must be a deliberate point.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Oh, crap, Dust Raven, that's what I feared, you're up and on the boards, I remembered this is your time of day...now I'm never going to get off the boards tonight!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Powers

 

90% of this thread is whining about differences which make no difference.

 

How true this is, and repped as soon as I can manage it. I have a game tomorrow and that last thing I want to do is answer "so, how's your week been?" with "oh, bitching about mental powers mostly".

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Such people are foolish.

 

Player A: I want to run a character who isn't a human type mind!

 

GM: Sorry, the campaign I'm running only has human type minds for players. But if you like you can buy defenses representing a rather different type of 'human' mind.

 

If we suddenly got a new player who asked my this tomorrow, I'd answer a bit differently (given the current campaign). I'd ask about the type of mind they want their character to have, and mention there are just as many villains and NPCs with powers affecting that kind of mind as there are for humans. If they're okay with that, all I'd have to do as GM is make that true. Some times they'll be the only character immune to mental powers, something the only target, and sometimes it wouldn't matter.