New Game; New Characters... oy vey

[Greywind]

Within a month, I will be restarting my Champions game. I had an individual come into work and purchase the last copy of Hero 5th that I had. During the course of our conversation, he was very elated to find that there was going to be a game taking place. Yesterday he delivered his character to me to look over. Save me from the munchkins!

 

Str 50/15 10d6/3d6 HTH damage Lift 25 tons/200 kg

Dex 50/20 OCV 16/6 DCV 16/6

Con 30

Body 35/15

Int 25

Ego 15

Pre 20

Com 25

 

PD 47/3

ED 43/6

SPD 6/3

REC 20/9

END 60

STUN 75/38

 

SKILLS

3 Acrobatics 15-

3 Breakfall 15-

16 CSLs: All Combat +2

5 Criminology: Mutant Psyche 17-

9 Interrogation 18-

22 Martial Arts

Choke Hold

Legsweep

Martial Block

Martial Disarm

Martial Dodge

Martial Escape

Martial Throw

2 PS: National Security Protocols 16-

3 Stealth 15-

3 Streetwise 15-

3 Survival: Urban/Suburban 16-

3 Tactics: Small Units 16-

3 Security Systems 16-

3 Computer Programming 16-

 

PERKS

5 Money $500,000/yr

8 Money $3,000,000/yr (Investments)

 

TALENTS

5 Eidetic Memory

23 Danger Sense

18 Out of Combat

Immediate Vicinity

Self Only

 

POWERS

15 Multipower (150 points) Power Battle Armor: Nanite Genejack Armor

3 Armor PD: 30 ED: 30 [1/4 END Cost +1/4] - Full Resistance

2 Damage Reduction: 3/4 Reduction: Resistant vs Killing Attacks

2 Density Increase: +35 STR; -7 KB; PD/ED +7 [0 Mass Increase +1/4, 0 End +1/4]

4 Characteristics: +25 Body, +25 Dex

2 Flash Defense 25 Points, Power Defense 25 Points

3 Flight 50" (x8 NCM)

1 Enhanced Senses: Nightvision, Infrared

3 Regeneration: 8d6 Body [0 End; Persistent; Extra Time - 1 Turn; Self Only]

 

Limitations on Multipower

Only in Hero ID

Limited Power: Inoperable in a Vacuum

Limited Power: Inoperable in intense magnetic fields

OIF

Very Difficult to Obtain Focus

 

4 Energy Blast: 12d6 Stun Only

Penetrating

 

Limitations on Energy Blast

OIF

Very Difficult to Obtain Focus

Linked to Battle Armor

No Proportion Required

Greater Power at Full Value

Only in Hero ID

Limited Power: Inoperable in a vacuum

Limited Power: Inoperable in intense magnetic fields

 

8 Retrocognition

Range: 40"

Blackout

Extra Time 1 minute

 

30 Mental Defense/Ego Defense

Ego Defense 15 points

Mental Defense 15 points

 

DISADVANTAGES

10 DNPC: Grandfather, Inventor, Paralyzed, CEO (Viamerica Research Tech)

20 Psych: CvK; Total

10 Psych: Super Patriot

15 Social: Secret ID

5 Psych: Vengeful (Moderate)

20 DNPC: Grandmother, Homemaker, Incompetent, Unaware

5 Distinctive Features: Nanite Armor

15 Psych: Honorable

[Agent X]

Re: New Game; New Characters... oy vey

 

Maybe you ought to take the points out of the hands of this guy and ask him a series of questions based on the benchmarks in your game.

 

How dextrous do you think your character is compared to a superhero like Booster Gold? Blue Beetle? Bat-Man?

 

How skilled is your character in the martial arts? A black belt? A local master? a world-class martial artist? One of the best, say among the 10 best in the world?

 

I dunno. I'd probably tell him there wasn't a meeting of the minds and I would offer up an NPC for him to run for a few games. Then I'd let him build his own character and it had better be less Munchkiny.

[Greywind]

Re: New Game; New Characters... oy vey

 

Oh, we intend to do that. There will be one day set aside, before actual play starts and we'll discuss characters, rationale and builds.

 

If you look closely at the build, somethings are just out-and-out illegal.

[Agent X]

Re: New Game; New Characters... oy vey

 

Oh, we intend to do that. There will be one day set aside, before actual play starts and we'll discuss characters, rationale and builds.

 

If you look closely at the build, somethings are just out-and-out illegal.

After a quick glance I had to avert my eyes. I couldn't take the pain.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: New Game; New Characters... oy vey

 

i spot the senses, flash defence, and density increase

[Greywind]

Re: New Game; New Characters... oy vey

 

Me and one of the seasoned veterans decided to put this through Hero Designer. We got a lot of "You can't do that" or "you shouldn't do that" warnings. I think Dan created an AI with that program and it learned what pain is.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: New Game; New Characters... oy vey

 

I'm inclined to think that this isn't even munchkinism as much as out and out failure to understand the system. The point values are SO off its not even comprehensible.

Supermunchkinism is an art form, if an occasionally reprehensible one.

This is just a basic lack of systemic knowlegde.

[Greywind]

Re: New Game; New Characters... oy vey

 

I'm still trying to figure out how he came up with a cost of 15 on the multipower.

 

Self Only isn't an option for Danger Sense, as it is inherently Self Only.

 

Density Increase with no Mass increase to avoid buying the stats and the knockback resistance.

 

Tapping both Focus and OIHID.

 

Penetrating on a Stun Only attack.

 

Ego Defense went away after 3rd. Mental Defense is a blanket for that now.

 

Money twice?

 

The character, what we could do legally, is about 500 points. This character would rarely be hit in combat, and any attacks that somehow managed to hurt him, would not be enough to put him down before his Regen and Rec got him back to perfect health.

 

I don't want to stifle creativity or the guy's enthusiasm, but the veterans of the group have already dealt with a character-creating idiot. One of them already said that if this is what we can expect, he doesn't want the guy playing.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: New Game; New Characters... oy vey

 

I'm still trying to figure out how he came up with a cost of 15 on the multipower.

 

yeah, that was the first thing that caught my eye too.

 

There's no way for the MP or the Energy Blast to point out right, as I can see it, even if the limits were all legal, which they aren't.

OTOH, you might let him play the character once... after all, both the MP and the EB are built as expendable foci.

"What do you mean my nano-armor went away after one hit?"

[Greywind]

Re: New Game; New Characters... oy vey

 

Is that like Alfred taking the mallet to the bat-cowl?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Game; New Characters... oy vey

 

I had an individual come into work and purchase the last copy of Hero 5th that I had. During the course of our conversation' date=' he was very elated to find that there was going to be a game taking place. [/quote']

 

Without going further (well, I made it to Dex 50...), I'd chalk this up as a brand new player with no basis to benchmark his character, and a poor understanding of the rules.

 

I echo the suggestion to sit the player down, one on one, and assist him in building this character concept in a way that fits both the rules system and your campaign.

[incrdbil]

Re: New Game; New Characters... oy vey

 

General rules from this example :

 

1. Newbies--never let them make characters alone. You just waste time having to trash what they first do and start over.

 

2. Never let anyone new to your campaign, much less playing walk away to make a character without a copy of a sheet listing the campaign DC/Active point limitations.

 

3. Discuss your group/gaming philosophy, about the expected tradeoffs. (You can be this and this, but you can't be everything); perhaps even show sample characters.

 

 

after getting the first broken character attempt:

 

4. Explain kindly that rearely does any character get through GM review without changes.

 

5. Remind the veterans about their first characters before they pass judgement on the guy.

 

6. Go over character concept. on't just say "you munched this character out and abused the rules" if you think he's just inexperienced--point out why certain combinations are not legal, not permitted in your campaign, or how the disadvantages as written would cripple the character. Tell him you won't allow the multiple meaningless limitations like vacuum or magnetic field--or that you'll be making sure that one or ther other show up rendering him useless with enough frequency as to justify the limitations. See if he really understood what those disadvatages meant.

 

7.By the end of the redesign know if you have a budding munchkin or not.

[Vondy]

Re: New Game; New Characters... oy vey

 

I recommend summarily executing the player and ritually burning the character sheet.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Game; New Characters... oy vey

 

General rules from this example :

 

1. Newbies--never let them make characters alone. You just waste time having to trash what they first do and start over.

 

Generally, I'm inclined to agree. Either you, or a player who is patient enough to explain the rules, should work with any inexperienced player in character creation. Some players do prefer to make their own fiurst draft, so I wouldn't set this as an absolute.

 

2. Never let anyone new to your campaign' date=' much less playing walk away to make a character without a copy of a sheet listing the campaign DC/Active point limitations. [/quote']

 

CORROLARY: A player who doesn't ask for the campaign parameters is one who should be considered a newbie for purposes of #1, above.

 

3. Discuss your group/gaming philosophy' date=' about the expected tradeoffs. (You can be this and this, but you can't be everything); perhaps even show sample characters.[/quote']

 

Part of working with newbies in #1, in my view, but an important concept for new players, especially, to understand. Even for experienced players, answering the quiestions "what niche will this character fill, and where are the holes he needs filled by his teammates" can be helpful.

 

4. Explain kindly that rearely does any character get through GM review without changes.

 

5. Remind the veterans about their first characters before they pass judgement on the guy.

 

Better yet, deal with the character revision withpout any discussion with the veterans. Why do they need to be in on these discussions in any case?

 

6. Go over character concept. don't just say "you munched this character out and abused the rules" if you think he's just inexperienced--point out why certain combinations are not legal, not permitted in your campaign, or how the disadvantages as written would cripple the character. Tell him you won't allow the multiple meaningless limitations like vacuum or magnetic field--or that you'll be making sure that one or ther other show up rendering him useless with enough frequency as to justify the limitations. See if he really understood what those disadvatages meant.

 

7.By the end of the redesign know if you have a budding munchkin or not.

 

To me, these are absolutely critical. Many of us wonder why it's so hard to find new players, in Hero specifically or gaming in general. Most of us, I suspect, either:

 

(a) started gaming with a group of players just as raw and inexperienced as ourselves, and learned the rules and game play the hard way, with lots of mistakes and mis steps along the way. or

 

( started gaming with an experienced group, one or more members of which patiently mentored us and helped us learn the game rules, both mechanical and unwritten playstyle.

 

Players who start with an experienced group which has little or no tolerance for anyone not knowing the rules, rhyme and verse, and matching our existing playstyle aren't exactly encouraged to become part of the hobby. If you, or your group, create that kind of environment, you're not doing the hobby any favours. New gamers increase the pool of people buying from game companies, making more product, greater variety and lower costs from economies of scale more viable.

[Vondy]

Re: New Game; New Characters... oy vey

 

Players who start with an experienced group which has little or no tolerance for anyone not knowing the rules, rhyme and verse, and matching our existing playstyle aren't exactly encouraged to become part of the hobby. If you, or your group, create that kind of environment, you're not doing the hobby any favours. New gamers increase the pool of people buying from game companies, making more product, greater variety and lower costs from economies of scale more viable.

 

*Shrug*

 

I don't plat role playing game to do the hobby any favors. I play to enjoy myself. Nor do I buy into the "ask not what your hobby can do for you" JFK claptrap. If I'm going to waste my time on a frivolous pursuit I'm going to enjoy myself in the process. If I have to reduce my enjoyment of the game to play then there's no point in playing. I've never had a newbie (in terms of new to the system) hand me a character that looked like this. I have, however, had total dinks who were new to my game (but not hero) hand me characters like this. You don't have to like the "environment" at my gaming table (which has introduced several newbies to the game*) - you weren't invited.

[Theron]

Re: New Game; New Characters... oy vey

 

*Shrug*

 

I don't plat role playing game to do the hobby any favors. I play to enjoy myself. Nor do I buy into the "ask not what your hobby can do for you" JFK claptrap. If I'm going to waste my time on a frivolous pursuit I'm going to enjoy myself in the process. If I have to reduce my enjoyment of the game to play then there's no point in playing. I've never had a newbie (in terms of new to the system) hand me a character that looked like this. I have, however, had total dinks who were new to my game (but not hero) hand me characters like this. You don't have to like the "environment" at my gaming table (which has introduced several newbies to the game*) - you weren't invited.

 

I'm willing to give a new player the benefit of the doubt ONCE. I'm willing to chalk one occurrence like this to a misunderstanding or differences in play style or philosophy. I'm willing to concede that the 4th edition rules did not specifically state that you had to make characteristic purchases in full values and that you really thought that spending 19 points on CON would yield you a CON of 20 thanks to rounding, even though a cursory look at the vast number of published characters show none that exploit that particular loophole. I'm willing to believe that you did not know that you have to spend a minimum of 10 pts on Martial Arts maneuvers. I missed this too, for many years, along with the odd little 4e rule that says you have to expend one End per phase to act at full DCV.

 

But I'm only willing to believe these things once. After that, I'm going to quickly come to the conclusion that asshattery is afoot.

[The Maxx]

Re: New Game; New Characters... oy vey

 

YiKES!

I'm a powergamer at heart (damn heart), but this guys sheet makes my eyes hurt.

 

I can hear the numbers screaming

 

So, please whatever you do make him stop.

 

At least you never had to deal with the likes of my Quantus (this actually got into a game under 4th ed rules)

 

Cosmic VPP

with constructs like autofire NND, PI, 0End

or variants using Drains...

 

EC- Virtual Willpower (read: Virtual bu11sh....)

+40 DEX

+40 Ego

+ enough SPD to get me to SPD 12

 

Danger Sense

 

I tortured a GM with this for about a year, (I've learned my lesson since then... Well mostly ;D)

[Theron]

Re: New Game; New Characters... oy vey

 

Also, can you actually buy wealth that way? Seems wrong, but I don't feel like going upstairs to check my book.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: New Game; New Characters... oy vey

 

I don't play role playing game to do the hobby any favors. I play to enjoy myself. Nor do I buy into the "ask not what your hobby can do for you" JFK claptrap. If I'm going to waste my time on a frivolous pursuit I'm going to enjoy myself in the process. If I have to reduce my enjoyment of the game to play then there's no point in playing.

 

In general, I aree with you. I reach a point, pretty quick, where I would remove such an individual from my game if, in fact, there's a problem in "player attitude". On the other hand, there's enlightened self-interest in dealing with new players. I see players move away, get other things going on so they quit gaming (temporarily or permanently) and otherwise draw back from the game, and need to be replaced.

 

I'd much rather take the short-term pain of teaching a newbie the ropes for the long-term gain of enhancing the player base than ultimately find there aren't enough players left to make for a regular game. And, in the grand scheme, I don't think the publishers will stay in business long if I'm the only guy buying books. Michael Jackson or Bill Gates can buy a game company and have them produce games for him alone. I can't afford that, so I need a base of purchasers beyond myself to keep my hobby viable.

 

Of course, what we can't see here is whether this is a player who will learn the rules and run a decent character, or a munchkin who will always be looking for loopholes. I'd rather assume the former and risk losing a few hours finding out I'm wrong, than assume the latter and lose a potnetially good player.

[Kirby]

Re: New Game; New Characters... oy vey

 

Yes, that hurts the brain just trying to think of what the person was thinking of at the time.

 

You mentioned Hero Designer. Is it possible going to be available at pre-Game Day? If so, I'd open the program up and show him the 500 pt character & then start from scratch. I personally like the Character Generator in Champions to assist in making fresh new characters that a newbie would truly appreciate.

 

In my campaign, one of the players was brand new, so I asked her what she wanted and used Jaguar & Ocelote from BBB to create her character (because this was about 90% of what she wanted). When she came over, I showed it her and we tweaked it to what she wanted. She loves the character.

 

Two other players who, at the time, had every Champions 5E book made characters using USPD templates, which surpassed the guidelines (and cost more than 350 points). We sat down at my computer and reworked the characters to fit what they wanted. They like them and understand why the changes were made.

[Greywind]

Re: New Game; New Characters... oy vey

 

I've installed HDv2 on the work comp. Only down side to the work comp is we don't have a printer that works with it right now. I'll have to try the printer tomorrow. Boss is going to Fla for a week. Lovely peace and quiet.

 

I intend to show him the character sheet that we did up, using his sheet as the basis. I also need to get the form printed up and copied off of the ground rules that we'll be proceeding under. The guy that I was discussing this with yesterday figured the character's creator decided that '50' was a nice round number to work with.

[Greywind]

Re: New Game; New Characters... oy vey

 

Also, I've come to find out that the player isn't new to the Hero System. He doesn't have much knowledge beyond Champions III.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: New Game; New Characters... oy vey

 

Also' date=' I've come to find out that the player isn't new to the Hero System. He doesn't have much knowledge beyond Champions III.[/quote']

In that case, I suspect he might be overstating the amount of experience he has with the system, or he was part of one of those groups who flirted with the system, never really got it, and eventually moved on.

Because even in champs 3 days, that was nothing like a legal build.

[Greywind]

Re: New Game; New Characters... oy vey

 

I've been with the system since '82. My impression from meeting him and his character, no, he doesn't have much playing experience with the system. It will be interesting as we tear down and rebuild. I hope he is a decent player.