Weapon Creation

[RavensPath]

I thought I would go to the experts on this one. I need to make a garrote for a character. I can think of a couple of ways to make it. And someone else suggested another way.

 

How would you make a regular wire garrote in HERO terms?

 

Thanks.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Weapon Creation

 

2D6 Hand Attack (10) No Normal Defense (+1) Does Body (+1) 30 Active

--HtH attack (-1/2) OAF-Garrote (-1) Must follow Grab (-1/4) Must be aimed at the head location (-3/4) Two-handed (-1/2) 7.5pts

 

This simulates the standard choking garrote. If its made of wire, it has a chance of cutting the opponent during the choking action, thus it has the Does Body advantage. (of course, a Wire Garrote can be made specifically for cutting, in which case it it written up as a killing attack)

This type of garrotte uses the rules for Choking an opponent, including continued choking to kill them. STR is added to the damage dice as normal for Hand to Hand attacks.

Note that this attack is only effective if A: it follows a successful grab and B: it attacks hit location 5 (the neck)

[Outsider]

Re: Weapon Creation

 

Basically, you will be at a -5 OCV on your initial grab (-1 for grab, -4 more to hit the head... assuming surprise/out of combat) against a target that (again assuming surprise) will be at 1/2 DCV. I wouldn't bother, unless I was going to have some levels in grab or in garrote.

 

An OCV of 6 has a 50/50 chance of successfully hitting a normal (10 dex) from surprise with this attack. An OCV of 10 will have about a 90% success rate. Given that failling is usually going to be somewhat disasterous at the times you'd really like to use this attack (yelling sentries arent good) a 10+ OCV with it is almost a requirement.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Weapon Creation

 

Choke Martial Maneuver, Weapon Element: Garrote

 

This gets around the massive attack penalties, requiring only a -2 OCV on the maneuver.

 

-nevereverend

 

Yep!

 

You use the weapon with the Martial maneuver and you are good to go!

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Weapon Creation

 

Basically' date=' you will be at a -5 OCV on your initial grab (-1 for grab, -4 more to hit the head... assuming surprise/out of combat) against a target that (again assuming surprise) will be at 1/2 DCV. I wouldn't bother, unless I was going to have some levels in grab or in garrote.[/quote']

 

A -5 OCV isn't too bad in the scheme of things. Of course, attacking with a garrote should be left to proffesionals.

 

An OCV of 6 has a 50/50 chance of successfully hitting a normal (10 dex) from surprise with this attack. An OCV of 10 will have about a 90% success rate. Given that failling is usually going to be somewhat disasterous at the times you'd really like to use this attack (yelling sentries arent good) a 10+ OCV with it is almost a requirement.

 

As Nevereverend pointed out, anyone who wants to do this maneuver regularly need only purchase the Martial maneuver Choke and he's good to go, as that bypasses the hit location penalty for targeting the Head.

In which case, OCV 6 guy vs DCV 6 guard now gets to grab vs a DCV 3 (for surprise/behind) at only -2 OCV. (12 or less to hit) With a few skill levels in his Martial Art, or with the Garrote, he can become an incredibly effective assasin....

[Cantriped]

Re: Weapon Creation

 

Shouldn't it be Continous as well? otherwise you'd have to keep making attack rolls every phase to keep choking the life out of the poor sod, or is that covered by the Grab action?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Weapon Creation

 

Shouldn't it be Continous as well? otherwise you'd have to keep making attack rolls every phase to keep choking the life out of the poor sod' date=' or is that covered by the Grab action?[/quote']

 

That's covered by the Grab action. Hand to Hand attack merely Adds to the STR damage you can do, thus as long as you are capable of doing STR damage (i.e. via a Grab) you can add the Hand to Hand attack damage in if applicable.

 

Also, I used the writeup in the 4th edition UMA (my 5th version is missing) as a guide, and continuous was not a part of that writeup.

[Markdoc]

Re: Weapon Creation

 

My approach was:

 

Garrote: 1" Darkness vs hearing (only to cancel voice of victim, -2) +10 STR (only for for hold/squeeze, -1), NND (+1, defence is rigid armour in location 5 or no need to breathe), targets throat without bonus or penalty, must follow grab (-1/2), OIF (garrote,weapon of opportunity, -1/2)

 

total cost: 10 points.

 

This was written up as a skill/talent rather than an item, ie: the ability to strangle somebody, rather than the cord itself, but you could use it as an item.

 

Doing it this way rather than targetting the neck specifically means you forgo the juicy x2 multiplier, but also means a normal can do 3d6 NND, which is enough to put anyone but heroic types out in a couple of phases - during which they cannot scream - and all you need to do is succeed with a grab at -2 OCV. Not too hard against a surprised foe, in which case you get the double damage. Effective enough too, since even if you don't knock 'em unconscious, you have a good chance of CON-stunning 'em.

 

In the hands of a competent rogue type, this was usually good night sweet price for unsuspecting sentries - with a couple of 3 pt levels he was almost guaranteed a hit and the next phase, he simply switched the levels into damage, to speed the process to DM's option.

 

Note that this is a knockout garrote, not a killing garrote - you'd need to strangle someone for a while to actually kill them, and if they had a high PD you couldn't kill them at all. You could, if you wished either add "does body" to the NND (making the real cost 15 points and this into a rather lethal attack). If I did that I'd be inclined to make the fous OAF - good quality wire in medieval or renaissance times was hard to come by and could not be readily replaced if lost.

 

cheers, Mark

[Old Man]

Re: Weapon Creation

 

My approach was:

...

 

I like this one quite a bit.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Weapon Creation

 

i like the NND HA idea

[Markdoc]

Re: Weapon Creation

 

i like the NND HA idea

 

The problem with HA as written is simply that it's not continuous - you need to roll to hit after you have grabbed. And AFTER you have grabbed, your target is no longer surprised, so you no longer get the big bonuses to hit the head, nor the damage bonus against an out of combat foe. The most likely outcome of the grab-followed-by-HA is that you grab the guard and then fail to hit with a -8 for the head (even granting the DCV reduction he has, since he is grabbed). Even if you hit in this situation, there's a fair chance you won't con-stun your opponent, since with the advantages on the HA, even 20 STR will only add 1d6 extra damage - meaning a 40% chance the guard can just shout for help

 

If you want to use HA, I would suggest making it triggered so that it goes off as soon as you grab - otherwise I use the same construct not for garrotes, but for saps, so you can come up behind someone and hit them on the head - putting them out, but not necessarily killing them.

 

cheers, Mark

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Weapon Creation

 

The problem with HA as written is simply that it's not continuous - you need to roll to hit after you have grabbed. And AFTER you have grabbed, your target is no longer surprised, so you no longer get the big bonuses to hit the head, nor the damage bonus against an out of combat foe. The most likely outcome of the grab-followed-by-HA is that you grab the guard and then fail to hit with a -8 for the head (even granting the DCV reduction he has, since he is grabbed). Even if you hit in this situation, there's a fair chance you won't con-stun your opponent, since with the advantages on the HA, even 20 STR will only add 1d6 extra damage - meaning a 40% chance the guard can just shout for help

 

If you want to use HA, I would suggest making it triggered so that it goes off as soon as you grab - otherwise I use the same construct not for garrotes, but for saps, so you can come up behind someone and hit them on the head - putting them out, but not necessarily killing them.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Ah.

 

You bypass all that with a simple +1 weapon element: Use Art with Garrote.

 

Garrote + Choke Hold martial maneuver equals very dead/unconscious opponent.

 

Note that though one cannot add STR to NND based Martial Maneuvers, if applicable, Normal Damage weapons can apply, most especially the Garrote and the Choke Hold maneuver. The 2D6 NND Choke Hold damage and the 2D6 NND Garrote damage stack for purposes of combining them, for a total of 4D6 NND damage! With an average damage of 14 Stun per phase, it will keep most minion level enemies Stunned and KO them in 2 to 3 phases, and kill them in a few turns of continued pressure.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Weapon Creation

 

Even if you hit in this situation, there's a fair chance you won't con-stun your opponent, since with the advantages on the HA, even 20 STR will only add 1d6 extra damage - meaning a 40% chance the guard can just shout for help

 

 

cheers, Mark

 

Another point:

 

The Choke Hold maneuver specifically states that if it successfully hits, the target cannot speak or shout until the grab has been broken. I would extend the same rule to use of the Garrote, since it is doing the exact same thing.

[RavensPath]

Re: Weapon Creation

 

Wow! Great suggestions all!

 

Thanks for the different ways to build this! Now I just have to run them by the GM.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Weapon Creation

 

That's covered by the Grab action. Hand to Hand attack merely Adds to the STR damage you can do, thus as long as you are capable of doing STR damage (i.e. via a Grab) you can add the Hand to Hand attack damage in if applicable.

 

Also, I used the writeup in the 4th edition UMA (my 5th version is missing) as a guide, and continuous was not a part of that writeup.

Surprise! Re-read the Grab rules in 5ER. You now need to make an attack roll every Phase you wish to Squeeze or Throw (except on the Phase the Grab was initiated); it is no longer automatic. Fortunately the grabbed character does have a reduced DCV against you, but still...I can see a lot more characters buying Continuous on their Strength and/or HAs in the near future.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Weapon Creation

 

Surprise! Re-read the Grab rules in 5ER. You now need to make an attack roll every Phase you wish to Squeeze or Throw (except on the Phase the Grab was initiated); it is no longer automatic. Fortunately the grabbed character does have a reduced DCV against you' date=' but still...I can see a lot more characters buying Continuous on their Strength and/or HAs in the near future.[/quote']

 

No kidding huh?

 

There's yet another reason for me to not buy the 5ER. The reasons to not buy it are beginning to outweight the reasons to buy it. Thats not good.

 

Yeah, I wouldn't use that ruling in my games. The (old) mechanics of Grab have worked for me (and obviously others) for years...decades even. I like them. They stay.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Weapon Creation

 

No kidding huh?

 

There's yet another reason for me to not buy the 5ER. The reasons to not buy it are beginning to outweight the reasons to buy it. Thats not good.

 

Yeah, I wouldn't use that ruling in my games. The (old) mechanics of Grab have worked for me (and obviously others) for years...decades even. I like them. They stay.

Agreed. I think. I may have a trial period, as many did consider Grab a little overpowered, but I suspect I will stick with the old system long-term.

[Old Man]

Re: Weapon Creation

 

There's yet another reason for me to not buy the 5ER. The reasons to not buy it are beginning to outweight the reasons to buy it. Thats not good.

 

Heh, my favorite version of FH is still 1st ed... take that how you will.

[LordGhee]

Re: Weapon Creation

 

Here here old man!