Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

[Guest Black Lotus]

I figure I put enough research into this to warrant its own thread. The first list contains the Damage Classes I have devised for calibered pistol ammunition, the second list contains the Damage Classes I have devised for metric pistol ammunition. Feel free to use these lists as a reference when statting out your pistols.

 

 

• .22: 4 DC
  
• .25 Auomatic Colt Pistol: 4 DC
  
• .32 Automatic Colt Pistol: 5 DC
  
• .380 Automatic Colt Pistol: 5 DC
  
• .357 Magnum/ .357 SIG: 6 DC
  
• .38 Special: 6 DC
  
• .400 Cor-Bon: 6 DC
  
• .40 Smith & Wesson: 6 DC
  
• .45 Automatic Colt Pistol: 7 DC
  
• .454 Casull: 7 DC
  
• .44 Automatic Magnum Pistol/.44 Magnum: 8 DC
  
• .50 AE: 9 DC (change back to 8 DC if you don't want to go this far).
  

 

• 5.45mm: 4 DC
  
• 5.56mm: 4 DC
  
• 7.62mm, 7.62x17mm: 5 DC
  
• 9mm Makarov: 5 DC
  
• 9x18mm Makarov: 6 DC
  
• 9mm Parabellum: 6 DC
  
• 10mm: 6 DC
  
• 9x21mm Russian: 7 DC
  
• 5.7mm (AET): 7 DC
  
• 12.3mm: 8 DC
  
• 12.5mm: 8 DC
  

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

Sounds about right: then guns just add ammo/autofire and accuracy. Cool.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

Sounds about right: then guns just add ammo/autofire and accuracy. Cool.

 

Basically. A very few pistols (such as the Colt Anaconda) add +1 DC (I recommend), despite their caliber, because of their rifling/ configuration/ numerous other factors.

 

I'll come out with a Rifle Damage Class By Caliber list sometime soon.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

Looks about right from a realism standpoint. Tho from a balance standpoint that's a little more lethal than I want guns to be in my game. Not saying you're wrong, mind, just that in my campaign(s) I'd prefer to have pistols not do more than about 6 DC. Of course, by capping it at 2d6K I lose a lot of room for distinguishing between different calibers, so everything's a trade-off.

 

I'll be curious to see what your rifle ammo DCs look like with pistol DCs this high.

 

 

bigdamnhero

"He thinks we're either a threat, food, or a mate. He's gonna either kill us, eat us, or hump us."

[Fox1]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

Looks about right from a realism standpoint..

 

It's not realistic.

 

Not only is that's basically an impossible task given today's knowledge of the the subject, it would fail the most basic real world fact checking.

 

It does however show differences between weapons, which was the primary point I believe.

 

 

I'll be curious to see what your rifle ammo DCs look like with pistol DCs this high.

 

I'm also mildly curious as well.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

It's not realistic.

 

Not only is that's basically an impossible task given today's knowledge of the the subject, it would fail the most basic real world fact checking.

 

It does however show differences between weapons, which was the primary point I believe.

 

 

 

 

I'm also mildly curious as well.

 

Now I know nothing about guns but some stuff about physics. Basically ammunition is a lump of lead of a fixed mass and a lump of low explosive whose expansion propels it, yes?

 

Assuming the barrel is long enough to allow the explosive to fully burn, I'm not sure how different guns can subsantially effect the MOMENTUM of the ammunition they use. Momentum, I'd have thought, given that all bullets of a given calibre have similar density and shape, would be the primary determiner of damage potential. I can see the barrel length and rifling effecting accuracy but I can't really see it effecting momentum, and, in my dim little way, I'd have thought this is what matters for base damage. Am I wrong?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

I'm also mildly curious as well.

 

...but doesn't your system (I did look, although you could do with more exposition as to application, it looks damn interesting, well done) also work on damages up to 3d6 (albeit starting higher): with sniper rifles and handguns doing similar damage for similar calibres?

[Fox1]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

...but doesn't your system (I did look' date=' although you could do with more exposition as to application, it looks damn interesting, well done) also work on damages up to 3d6 (albeit starting higher): with sniper rifles and handguns doing similar damage for similar calibres?[/quote']

 

Yes it does, for practical real world calibers it basically runs from 2d6-1 up to 3d6+1K showing the differences between similar bullet diameters in armor effects and/or stun modifiers.

 

While I would claim that it arranges the weapons correctly in relative order, I can't claim it's truly realistic. The simple truth is that I have no real world numbers to draw on. They don't exist. So I can't match them.

 

That said, the weapons match real world expectation better than the official weapon designs do. A hit with a 9mm handgun will remove a Stat 10 normal from battle most of the time, as it would in the real world. Shooting an elephant with an elephant class gun will typically kill it in a single shot as it would in the real world. Etc.

 

And I managed it without overloading the damage range. The changes fit fine in the standard CU for example with firearms not overshadowing 60 AP limit heroes.

 

It's more realistic than straight HERO, but it's not truly realistic. It matches where on the continuum I like my game to be.

[Fox1]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

Momentum' date=' I'd have thought, given that all bullets of a given calibre have similar density and shape, would be the primary determiner of damage potential. [/quote']

 

This is basically true with a few notes...

 

1. If momentum is too low, the projectile will not do maximum possible damage as the wound does not fully penetrate the target.

 

2. If momentum is too high, the projectile will over-penetrate and and left over momentum will be lost beyond the target.

 

 

Between 1 and 2, equal diameter bullets will produce equal wounds except....

 

Bullets can be designed to deform upon impact. This ranges from simple expansion as metal folds back (hollow points) to almost exploding into fragments (like a M16 bullet). In practical terms, the bullet burns the energy in its momentum to deform itself increasing the wound area. To be effective, the bullet shouldn't burn too much energy or it will have problems with condition #1 above.

 

On top of this, secondary projectiles can be created in the body itself by such things as hitting bone and throwing off bone chips.

 

Bullet deforming and other effects are not 100% however; they are greatly influenced by factors beyond the control of the designer and shooter. Thus the rule- use the most gun you are comfortable with it, i.e. biggest diameter with high enough penetration for the desired target type.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

People, we can't achieve realism at ALL with bullets in this game. If you shoot someone smack in the head with a crappy .22 pistol in real life, they pretty much die instantly 95% of the time. In the game, even with a x2 BODY Hit Location multiplier, even if you're standing right next to someone, you do maybe 6 - 8 damage (according to the book). Even with a normal mundane person built on 15 character points and 40 Disadvantage points, that'll MAYBE take them down to 0 or -2 BODY. When you take heroes into consideration, especially those with high BODY, you'd have to pump shots into their head 3 - 5 times with a .22 just to take them below - BODY, if they had a totally unarmored head.

 

I'm just trying to show that a .50 Desert Eagle has WAY more stopping power than a .22. In real life, a healthy man can take quite a few .22 bullets to the body and still live; one .50 AE shell is enough to kill someone outright or have them bleed to death very quickly (huge exit wound).

 

Anyway, I'll stop now. By the way, I'm going to try and justify my list with the Firearms List in FREd to make it more easily adaptable. I still think the DCs given in the book are pretty weak for firearms though, especially considering a normal heroic character can do 3d6 HKA martial maneuvers, and a Desert Eagle only does 2d6+1 (in FREd).

[Fox1]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

If you shoot someone smack in the head with a crappy .22 pistol in real life' date=' they pretty much die instantly 95% of the time. In the game, even with a x2 BODY Hit Location multiplier[/quote']

 

I'm not sure it's 95%. I don't think there are reliable numbers on that.

 

In any case, with my house rules, the typical stat 10 normal is toast unless he receives immediate medical aid. Average Damage is 12 BODY with 24 stun meaning he's unconscious with no recoveries. He'll very likely bleed to death shortly thereafter (again, using my house rules on bleeding).

 

It's certainly easy to be *more* realistic. It just takes a different way of building things than the official lists use.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

I am currently using the Internet to research how many foot-pounds of energy every bullet I can find and think of produces. I'll be able to chart out which bullets are the most powerful, from the lowest to the highest, then assign them a DC category.

 

Am I crazy? Yeah. Try it -- it's fun!

 

Until then, here's a fun comparison pic.

[Inu]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

I'm not sure it's 95%. I don't think there are reliable numbers on that.

 

In any case, with my house rules, the typical stat 10 normal is toast unless he receives immediate medical aid. Average Damage is 12 BODY with 24 stun meaning he's unconscious with no recoveries. He'll very likely bleed to death shortly thereafter (again, using my house rules on bleeding).

 

It's certainly easy to be *more* realistic. It just takes a different way of building things than the official lists use.

I know you really love coming onto threads and saying 'that's not realistic'. But seriously, the rules as written do most of that. You just don't like exactly how they do it. I've read your own house rules, and I fail to find them inherently more realistic. It's just a different way of doing it, yet you still like saying that anyone doing things a different way is inherently less realistic than you. Ah well.

 

I'd really rather if we could just agree that there are many ways to achieve 'realism' in a game, given that true realism is impossible to acheive in any game, and that given our (the human race's) inadequate knowledge of exactly how wound ballistics work, we really can't tell which is more and which is less?

[Fox1]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

But seriously' date=' the rules as written do most of that. You just don't like exactly how they do it. [/quote']

 

The rules as written don't do that.

 

They do provide rather poor fixes in an attempt to do that (like the killing attacks does 2x rule, the incap by GM decision rule, etc). All of which fail badly in comparsion to real world. They were basically hand waves by people who didn't understand the subject but wanted a more lethal outcome.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

I think the current listed damages are fine (for the most part. I've adjusted them myself, but to a lesser degree) most especially when used with Optional Rules such as Hit Locations, Bleeding and Impairing and Disabling rules and Critical Hits.

 

Lets take the HERO version of the .50 Desert Eagle: 2D6+1K

 

Lets shoot Joe Normal (Body 10, Stun 20) in the Chest (Body X1, Stun X3).

 

Lets assume average damage: 8 Body.

 

Thats 8 Body and 32 Stun. Lets not forget that the Desert Eagle has a +1 Stun multiplier.

 

Joe is now down to 2 Body and -12 Stun. He has taken an Impairing wound to the Chest. He is now Bleeding at 2D6 per Turn.

 

Because Joe has taken an Impairing wound to the Chest, he no longer gets his post segment 12 recovery. Joe is also beyond -10 Stun, so he only gets to recover on his post-segment 12 Recovery..oh wait, no he doesn't! (The Gm determines that Joe is impaired for 5 minutes, so it will be at least 5 minutes before he gets to recover at all)

 

In that 5 minutes of no recoveries, Joe bleeds at a rate of 7 Stun per turn. Lets assume that Joe only bleeds for 3 turns before it clots (unlikely) so Joe takes another 21 Stun, dropping Joe to -33 Stun.

 

Joe is unconsciouss, hurt badly and in dire need of serious medical attention. And that was simply 1 average damage shot to the chest!

 

Of course, its the GM's option to simply pronounce Joe dead, since he took an Impairing wound to the chest from such a weapon (yes, thats an actual rule guys!)

 

Now, lets shoot Joe in the head! Same gun, same damage.

 

8 Body damage to the head (X2 Body, X5 Stun)

 

This does 16 Body and 48 Stun.

 

Joe is now down to -6 Body and -28 Stun. He has taken a Disabling wound to the head. He is bleeding at 3D6 per turn and losing body a 1 Body per turn.

Of course, all the bleeding is irrelevant because Joe is dead. He took a .50 Desert Eagle round to the skull. Game Over.

 

Yes guys, thats an actual rule. A disabling wound to the Head, Chest or Vitals (before or after the Body multiplier) usually results in a dead or dying character (definately for NPC's...PC's should be given a chance to get help...maybe)

 

So with those rules in effect, I don't see the need to increase the damage into the stratosphere. Why? Because it changes the interacation of such weapons to inanimate objects such as Bank Vaults and Armored Jeeps. A .50 Handgun shouldn't put holes in an armored jeep...I don't care how easily it kills fleshies. Thus, I think the issue of Firearms damage not being "realistic enough" oftentimes isn't a flaw in the damage rules themselves, but in how individuals are dealing with the effects of that damage in their campaigns. If one is only basing it on "He took X body" sure your humans are going to be over tough. It just takes a little common sense and everything will turn out nicely.

[Fox1]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

Lets take the HERO version of the .50 Desert Eagle: 2D6+1K

 

Oh sure. Let's take one of the most powerful handgun characters can put there hands on from the official lists, and then run it with some of the most lethal optional rules in the game.

 

We don't care about more normal weapons, we don't care about how the use of those optional rules will make even the smallest of the rifle class weapons into instant death machines. Nope, we don't care about any of that.

 

All we're trying to do is prove a point. Heaven forbid if we actually try to run a fun game instead.

 

So with those rules in effect, I don't see the need to increase the damage into the stratosphere. Why? Because it changes the interacation of such weapons to inanimate objects such as Bank Vaults and Armored Jeeps.

 

I don't think you've even looked at the suggested changes from my website. If you did, you may be suprised to know that what you're whining about here isn't significantly more possible than it is under HERO.

 

Look and do some math before you leap.

[pinecone]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

I think the current listed damages are fine (for the most part. I've adjusted them myself, but to a lesser degree) most especially when used with Optional Rules such as Hit Locations, Bleeding and Impairing and Disabling rules and Critical Hits.

 

Lets take the HERO version of the .50 Desert Eagle: 2D6+1K

 

Lets shoot Joe Normal (Body 10, Stun 20) in the Chest (Body X1, Stun X3).

 

Lets assume average damage: 8 Body.

 

Thats 8 Body and 32 Stun. Lets not forget that the Desert Eagle has a +1 Stun multiplier.

 

Joe is now down to 2 Body and -12 Stun. He has taken an Impairing wound to the Chest. He is now Bleeding at 2D6 per Turn.

 

Because Joe has taken an Impairing wound to the Chest, he no longer gets his post segment 12 recovery. Joe is also beyond -10 Stun, so he only gets to recover on his post-segment 12 Recovery..oh wait, no he doesn't! (The Gm determines that Joe is impaired for 5 minutes, so it will be at least 5 minutes before he gets to recover at all)

 

In that 5 minutes of no recoveries, Joe bleeds at a rate of 7 Stun per turn. Lets assume that Joe only bleeds for 3 turns before it clots (unlikely) so Joe takes another 21 Stun, dropping Joe to -33 Stun.

 

Joe is unconsciouss, hurt badly and in dire need of serious medical attention. And that was simply 1 average damage shot to the chest!

 

Of course, its the GM's option to simply pronounce Joe dead, since he took an Impairing wound to the chest from such a weapon (yes, thats an actual rule guys!)

 

Now, lets shoot Joe in the head! Same gun, same damage.

 

8 Body damage to the head (X2 Body, X5 Stun)

 

This does 16 Body and 48 Stun.

 

Joe is now down to -6 Body and -28 Stun. He has taken a Disabling wound to the head. He is bleeding at 3D6 per turn and losing body a 1 Body per turn.

Of course, all the bleeding is irrelevant because Joe is dead. He took a .50 Desert Eagle round to the skull. Game Over.

 

Yes guys, thats an actual rule. A disabling wound to the Head, Chest or Vitals (before or after the Body multiplier) usually results in a dead or dying character (definately for NPC's...PC's should be given a chance to get help...maybe)

 

So with those rules in effect, I don't see the need to increase the damage into the stratosphere. Why? Because it changes the interacation of such weapons to inanimate objects such as Bank Vaults and Armored Jeeps. A .50 Handgun shouldn't put holes in an armored jeep...I don't care how easily it kills fleshies. Thus, I think the issue of Firearms damage not being "realistic enough" oftentimes isn't a flaw in the damage rules themselves, but in how individuals are dealing with the effects of that damage in their campaigns. If one is only basing it on "He took X body" sure your humans are going to be over tough. It just takes a little common sense and everything will turn out nicely.

I gotta say...I am in agreement with ya...I've never had a problem killing characters but I due like to add in all the bells and wistles. Without all that stuff people do seem dang unkillable...but that is on purpose....

[yamamura]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

I think the current listed damages are fine (for the most part. I've adjusted them myself, but to a lesser degree) most especially when used with Optional Rules such as Hit Locations, Bleeding and Impairing and Disabling rules and Critical Hits.

 

Lets take the HERO version of the .50 Desert Eagle: 2D6+1K

 

Lets shoot Joe Normal (Body 10, Stun 20) in the Chest (Body X1, Stun X3).

 

Lets assume average damage: 8 Body.

 

Thats 8 Body and 32 Stun. Lets not forget that the Desert Eagle has a +1 Stun multiplier.

 

Joe is now down to 2 Body and -12 Stun. He has taken an Impairing wound to the Chest. He is now Bleeding at 2D6 per Turn.

 

Because Joe has taken an Impairing wound to the Chest, he no longer gets his post segment 12 recovery. Joe is also beyond -10 Stun, so he only gets to recover on his post-segment 12 Recovery..oh wait, no he doesn't! (The Gm determines that Joe is impaired for 5 minutes, so it will be at least 5 minutes before he gets to recover at all)

 

In that 5 minutes of no recoveries, Joe bleeds at a rate of 7 Stun per turn. Lets assume that Joe only bleeds for 3 turns before it clots (unlikely) so Joe takes another 21 Stun, dropping Joe to -33 Stun.

 

Joe is unconsciouss, hurt badly and in dire need of serious medical attention. And that was simply 1 average damage shot to the chest!

 

Of course, its the GM's option to simply pronounce Joe dead, since he took an Impairing wound to the chest from such a weapon (yes, thats an actual rule guys!)

 

Now, lets shoot Joe in the head! Same gun, same damage.

 

8 Body damage to the head (X2 Body, X5 Stun)

 

This does 16 Body and 48 Stun.

 

Joe is now down to -6 Body and -28 Stun. He has taken a Disabling wound to the head. He is bleeding at 3D6 per turn and losing body a 1 Body per turn.

Of course, all the bleeding is irrelevant because Joe is dead. He took a .50 Desert Eagle round to the skull. Game Over.

 

Yes guys, thats an actual rule. A disabling wound to the Head, Chest or Vitals (before or after the Body multiplier) usually results in a dead or dying character (definately for NPC's...PC's should be given a chance to get help...maybe)

 

So with those rules in effect, I don't see the need to increase the damage into the stratosphere. Why? Because it changes the interacation of such weapons to inanimate objects such as Bank Vaults and Armored Jeeps. A .50 Handgun shouldn't put holes in an armored jeep...I don't care how easily it kills fleshies. Thus, I think the issue of Firearms damage not being "realistic enough" oftentimes isn't a flaw in the damage rules themselves, but in how individuals are dealing with the effects of that damage in their campaigns. If one is only basing it on "He took X body" sure your humans are going to be over tough. It just takes a little common sense and everything will turn out nicely.

 

 

Good point.

[Inu]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

Oh sure. Let's take one of the most powerful handgun characters can put there hands on from the official lists, and then run it with some of the most lethal optional rules in the game.

 

We don't care about more normal weapons, we don't care about how the use of those optional rules will make even the smallest of the rifle class weapons into instant death machines. Nope, we don't care about any of that.

 

All we're trying to do is prove a point. Heaven forbid if we actually try to run a fun game instead.

 

I don't think you've even looked at the suggested changes from my website. If you did, you may be suprised to know that what you're whining about here isn't significantly more possible than it is under HERO.

 

Look and do some math before you leap.

From what I can see, damage from rifles in HERO and your house rules is pretty similar... and you recommend using impairing/disabling as well. So that doesn't sound too different? The main difference I see is that you've also raised the damage of pistol-calibre weapons to match those of rifles (one of the main areas that may, or may not, be realistic; but who really knows). You also have other optional rules, most of which serve to increase lethality. So how is what NuSoard is doing 'unfun' or too lethal?

 

So what point is it you're trying to prove? That HERO isn't realistic? I agree. I just disagree that it's totally unrealistic, or that most house rules are NECESSARILY more realistic. Or that Hero can't be lethal without unacceptibly breaking with realism. I absolutely agree with NuSoard (who I don't hear whining that much, I must say) in that Hero ain't bad in that respect once you get all the rules working. You can then fine-tune the lethality, by messing with Con rolls and the like.

 

I appreciate your drive to find more 'realistic' rules for Hero (put in inverted commas, because as we both understand, true realism in a game is impossible). I have something of an interest in the area, as well. I just understand that given our flawed knowledge of what happens in the real worls, we simply cannot say that there is one way and one way only to do it. That's the point I'm trying to make.

 

That said, I do like some of the options on your site - such as possibly doing away with the BODY stat. I have to look into that further.

 

As for the original post: looks okay to me. I personally believe games are lethal enough with the by-the-book options (that is, more or less as lethal as real life), but upping damage is certainly workable. It's downright necessary if you want reliable one-shot-stops (I'd just advise letting PCs and important NPCs get combat luck or the like, to prevent high player fatalities).

 

(And I totally don't see how any of this, one way or another, is getting in the way of a 'fun game'. O_o That's an odd thing to invoke.)

[Fox1]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

So how is what NuSoard is doing 'unfun' or too lethal?

 

Use the optional rules as Nusoard did, what is the effect on the chance of a lethal hits for any rifle class weapon? I'll give you a hint; it's much higher than it is in reality and vastly out of proportional to handguns.

 

His solution in no way addresses the problem. He's slamming something without even the most basic clue as to what he's doing or the goals of the person's work he's slamming.

 

I find that highly objectable.

 

As for it being unfun, the people who's work he's slamming get to determine that. As one of those people, I will flattly state that I find his 'solution' unfun in the extreme.

 

Beyond this specific response however, unfun depends upon the specific game group and their specific needs. I've stated in other threads at different times that if I were to run a Film Noir campaign- I'd rule that any hit with any firearm is an automatic kill- because that's how some of my favorite films from that genre work.

 

So I range from 100% kills to what's up on my website in taste. Quite a range just in myself there. And to bust another myth, my house rules are not more lethal than HERO's. A careful overview would show that they are in fact less lethal in the long run.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

Wow, I can't believe I'm taking an opposing side in a gun discussion, but your (Fox1) realism, is different from mine which is probably different from Blacklotus', what is important is that it fits the game you want to play. I find I generally don't like others gun house rules (except for Nusord graphite and gewing but that is because we have influenced each others house rules over many discussions on these and the old boards)

 

Personally I think HERO has already had some of the best gun rules in any RPG, unfortunately that was in the 3rd ed, 4th ed made some significant changes that I feel were a step backward.

 

It is a common thread when making rules "more realistic" to make guns more lethal, they rarely leave a possibility for multiple ineffective hits, yet in real life there are many examples of people being shot many times with large bore handguns and even rifles as well as the other extreme, one shot stops with a .22 short.

 

Oddly some of the most "realistic" rules I've seen were very simple, in Behind Enemy Lines and Delta Force (sort of BEL deluxe) after hitting the target a roll for the effect was made, this was modified by the gun (fairly minor, -1 to +2) and the location (-2 to +3 IIRC), so the most important element was luck (a 2d6 roll), followed by location and finally the gun. It was quite possible with bad rolls (or good ones if you were the target) to hit a target many times without causing a disabling or lethal wound, or to drop your target with one well placed shot from a pip squeek gun.

 

My advice make rules your group likes, if BL and his group likes the rules he came up with great, Fox you like your rules use 'em, I have rules some (many) think are excessively complex but I like 'em so that what I use, I would never insist someone else use them although I would encourage it

 

Disagreement is natural, the thing that bugs me is when people come into these threads and start telling people that "realism" isn't possible or a worthwhile goal, it is so long as people understand realism is all relative.

[Fox1]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

It is a common thread when making rules "more realistic" to make guns more lethal' date=' they rarely leave a possibility for multiple ineffective hits, [/quote']

 

I'm sorry, but my house rules do indeed leave the possiblity for multiple ineffective hits, and do so far better then the 'more realistic' option rules suggested in the HERO rulebook.

 

One again we have someone talking about something without running the math. It always happens.

 

 

 

it is so long as people understand realism is all relative.

 

Reality is a fixed value, the only thing that varies is peoples like of understanding.

 

Desired game play however is up to the individual.

 

Pity that some people can't tell the difference it seems.

[Inu]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

Reality is a fixed value, the only thing that varies is peoples like of understanding.

 

Desired game play however is up to the individual.

 

Pity that some people can't tell the difference it seems.

Exactly - people's understanding of reality varies. I've read your sources, the better of them admit that no-one actually knows what 'reality' is. There just isn't enough data to know for sure, all there is is theories. And considering how many of the deeply-held theories of yesteryear have been blown out of the water, I don't consider any source conclusive.

 

I find your house rules a mix of good and bad, some of which I'd consider adopting, some of which I go 'no, that doesn't jibe.' Pretty good, on the whole, for a collection of house rules. I wouldn't comment on them at all, except that you seem to enjoy tearing into everyone else's rules, if they disagree with your conception of reality.

 

And that's the point, isn't it? No-one knows how reality ACTUALLY works. In some cases, we know how it doesn't work. We know bullets don't just bounce off skin (most of the time), but we know that they can pass through leaving almost no injury. We know bullets can kill in one hit, no matter how crappy the bullet and no matter how tough the target. These may or may not be things we want to simulate in games, even in ones striving to be 'realistic'. Certain theories I consider well and truly debunked (Marshall&Sanow, for instance).

 

But as for how things actually do work? Your guess is as good as mine. Or perhaps, more precisely, it's anyone's guess.

 

And I'm off to bed. Night!

[Fox1]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

I've read your sources' date=' the better of them admit that no-one actually knows what 'reality' is.[/quote']

 

I state the exact same thing on my website, you may have well quoted it back to me. But you left out a important quaification- they don't know the exact details of the reality, but they certainly know a number of highly important generalities.

 

The simple truth is that any system that includes that entire range of those important generalities is better in respect to realism than one which does not.

 

HERO, even with it's optional rules- DOES NOT. My work, even with all its up front admitted failures- DOES.

 

The good or bad of that is left as a decision for the individual. There is a place for highly unrealistic games, and a place for highly realistic ones.

 

But it is complete folly to claim at any point that there is no difference, and can be no difference.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Pistol Damage Class By Caliber

 

Let me start by saying I'm certainly one to change the system when I feel it's necessary. I agree that the gun rules aren't as "realistic" as they could be but I also feel that within the context of the game they actually do work.

 

Joe Average is 8 BODY, not 10. If you play that many things work out just fine. Whether that was the original intent of Hero or not, that is the norm for average people, not average Heroes. Shoot an average person with a 9mm using the impairing rules (which have been around for a while, 4th edition at least) and 50% of the time he takes an impairing wound to the chest (1d6+1 averages 4.5, 50% are 5 or more and this is greather than BODY/2). This will prevent him from getting recoveries and through bleeding could very well die. A max damage shot would certainly do him in, causing 7 BODY and 21 STUN, eliminating his recoveries, and putting him at -5 STUN (he only has 16). The 2d6 bleeding will certainly offset his 4 REC and eventually he'll lose even that. Shoot him in the head, and he will take 25 STUN and 10 BODY half the time, again causing him to bleed out.

 

Even a .22 Standard (1d6-1) will still cause 6 BODY, 15 STUN on average to the head which will cause an impairing wound to the head, knocking the character out and bleeding him out. A .22 execution style (max damage) will do 10 BODY and 25 STUN, again enough to kill the target.

 

Bump these situations up to .45 or .44 Mag and it gets even uglier.

 

So, my tips:

 

1. Use the average normal stats in the books for average normals

2. Use the existing Equipment Guide/DC guns with the following modifications: a) rifles are +1 level of AP, true bullet proof armor is +1 level of Hardened

3. Use Impairing/Disabling/Bleeding rules. There is some GM discretion suggested in the rules and this is what I do. Make a CON roll. Success means the effects are temporary until healed (disabling) or until the end of the combat (impairing), failure means they are permanent (disabling) or last until healed (impairing). Impairing to the head/vitals results in a coma until revived on failure or -2 Overal Levels on success. Disabling to the head/vitals results in coma (as impairing) on success, and death on failure.

 

I'm very familiar with firearms of all kinds, and read as much information about their practical capabilities as possible. I am not an expert but am aware of many of the issues. I have played many "realistic" combat systems for firearms (ranging from GDW, to Phoenix Command, to Milleniums End, to GURPS) and I enjoy the gunplay in Hero more than any of those. It's fast, cinematic, and yet possess enough realism to induce tension and fun. Those 3 rules above mean I don't have to modify any tables or any published stats and can just play, but tweak the realism enough that nobody wants to get shot. While average joes/thugs may fall, the heroes are just a little tougher to kill and that makes things fun.

 

Everyone has their ideas for what realistic is. Whether you agree with the rules as is or not, that is simply one approach, as is the one presented here, as is Fox1's. While I like detail and grit, I also like to keep things as simple as possible, which also means to limit the amount of deviation from the published rules as much as possible if only to keep things clear to new players. If everyone in a group agrees that a different approach is warranted and fun, that's what Hero is all about. Let's be thankful the system is flexible enough to allow such tweaking in a consistent and methodical manner.