Walking On The Sun

[prestidigitator]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Damage Mitigation is very much like a personal force wall. In very basic mechanical principles. The power differs in that being built from the start as a persistent standard power it has options that Force Wall (and its cousin Force Field) lack. Thus it acts in some ways like an upgraded option of Armor.

 

The cost of Damage Mitigation is effectively limited only by two things: what the GM will allow and what you as a player want to pay. Just like in regular HERO. Damage Mitigation is not absolute, like say your system or some others I have seen. This is why I brainstormed up a new name for the power. So players like Onyxclaw wouldn't seize upon invulnerability as a word and concept in ways that do not apply. Thus you get exactly what you pay for. Damage Mitigation is just one more tool in the tool kit.

 

The power Damage Mitigation would not offer defense vs. NNDs because those are blocked by SFX and on occasion powers with an SFX. Damage Mitigation is just a game construct until applied to a character, then it could if defined correctly block some NNDs just like other defense powers could be defined as a 'Force Field' and block a given NND. The same argument holds true for other advantages.

 

So for two examples I assume that 60CP are spent on Damage Mitigation.

 

Firelord purchases 60AP of Damage Mitigation (DM) as 24rED only vs Heat and Flame Attacks -1. Now when attacked by any heat or flame SFX attack or condition Firelord compares the BODY dealt from the attack to his DM if the attack does not exceed his DM Firelord takes no damage from the attack. If the attack deals 25+ Body Firelord then applies the damage (both Body and STUN) to the aggregate score of his Energy Defense (ED + DM + any other applicable powers).

 

Stonelad of the Group of Superior Buds purchases 60CP of Damage Mitigation (DM) to represent his rock-like hide when he says the name of his mentor "Granite Carson". Stonelad defines his power as 14rPD 10rED Damage Mitigation OIHID -.25. When ever Stonelad is struck by any regular attack he compares the BODY total to either the PD or ED of the Damage Mitigation. Unless the Body dealt exceeds his Damage Mitigation Stonelad takes no damage. If the attack deals more Body that Stonelad has DM then applies the damage (both Body and STUN) to the aggregate score of his defenses (PD or ED + DM (PD or ED) + any other applicable powers).

 

Seems pretty darned balanced to me.

The problem is that a personal Force Wall has limitations above your proposed Power, but no additional benefits. The limitations I am referring to are:

• If the FW has only rED like your example, it must buy an Advantage or be destroyed by even a single Stun or Body worth of physical damage.
  
• All attacks (that the FW is not transparent to) used by the character must be Indirect, either inherently or through a suitable Advantage.
  
• If it takes damage sufficient to overcome its defenses, the FW comes down for a time even if bought Persistant.

So I'm not completely convinced that Force Wall serves as a very appropriate basis for this proposed Power.

[zornwil]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Repped. I'd be comfortable seeing this in a campaign.

Hugh selected pretty much the values that I did, or I should say I suppose he was reacting to them, but I assume you are referring to his last sentence?

[zornwil]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

The problem is that a personal Force Wall has limitations above your proposed Power, but no additional benefits. The limitations I am referring to are:

• If the FW has only rED like your example, it must buy an Advantage or be destroyed by even a single Stun or Body worth of physical damage.
  
• All attacks (that the FW is not transparent to) used by the character must be Indirect, either inherently or through a suitable Advantage.
  
• If it takes damage sufficient to overcome its defenses, the FW comes down for a time even if bought Persistant.

So I'm not completely convinced that Force Wall serves as a very appropriate basis for this proposed Power.

 

EDITED - as per below dialogue...never mind...

[OddHat]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Actually it has an important benefit in covering an entire area.

 

From my viewpoint, without getting into points/value minutiae, I see now what Hawksmoor is getting at and in concept I can see it.

 

A Personal force wall doesn't cover an area. That's why it's a Personal force wall, and gets a limit.

 

Or am I missing something?

[OddHat]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Hugh selected pretty much the values that I did' date=' or I should say I suppose he was reacting to them, but I assume you are referring to his last sentence?[/quote']

 

I was reacting to the idea of using Damage Reduction as the base for an Invulnerability power if you're going to allow it at all, and trashing the -1/2 limit for Only Versus Fire if it doesn't make sense in the setting. Hugh's point values in particular match my feeling for how useful these abilities are in most campaigns much more closely than some of the other structures under discussion.

[zornwil]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

A Personal force wall doesn't cover an area. That's why it's a Personal force wall, and gets a limit.

 

Or am I missing something?

Whoops, sorry, I thought it was being compared to a regular FW. Mea culpa.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Invulnerability is really just high defences, damage reduction and the ability to recover what little STUN and BODY you might take quickly. How many comics characters have invulnerability but then are patently harmed when attacked? The only character in a comic I've ever seen who took literally not a lick of damage from any attack ever was the Saint of Killers in Preacher. Even then I'm sure there must be something which would breach his defences, so he's probably not literally invulnerable... just really, really hard to hurt.

 

Even characters who are 'immune to fire' or the like only seem to by immune to it until the next mega-all-powerful fire guy shows up.

 

Saint Of Killers own guns would kill him. Satan wipped him something good upon his arrival into Hell if I recall correctly.

 

He was effectively immune to any damage that could be dealt within that "game world"

 

The more I think about it the less I like the idea of an Absolute Immunity within the confines of the game. If I need someone that immune it should be story-boarded.

[zornwil]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Saint Of Killers own guns would kill him. Satan wipped him something good upon his arrival into Hell if I recall correctly.

 

He was effectively immune to any damage that could be dealt within that "game world"

 

The more I think about it the less I like the idea of an Absolute Immunity within the confines of the game. If I need someone that immune it should be story-boarded.

How would that work with a PC? You're saying just "write" and hand-wave it?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

How would that work with a PC? You're saying just "write" and hand-wave it?

 

I'm personally not sure PCs should be walking around with that kind of ability either.

 

The only place I could see it working well is a Galatic Champions or other very high powered campaign.

 

I'm walffling on it at this point, Hugh's idea has some merit to it. And I'm not completely turned off by SFX Only Immunity (you don't get an immunity to a defense type, just an FX type).

[MitchellS]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

It seems that M&M has now addressed immunity completely: Immunity: 20 ranks [costs 1 point per rank]: all nonlethal physical damage, all lethal physical damage, all nonlethal energy damage, or all lethal energy damage. 30 ranks: Any effect calling for a particular saving throw: Fortitude, Reflex, or Will.

 

Hero needs to catch up!

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

I've said it before and i'll say it again. I think that the most attractive thing about HERO is it's lack of absolutes

[MitchellS]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

I've said it before and i'll say it again. I think that the most attractive thing about HERO is it's lack of absolutes

Unfortunately it's an aspect of the game which doesn't mimic comic books; not a good thing for the superhero genre anyway.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

it's a good thing i'm not using it to play superheros that often

[MitchellS]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

it's a good thing i'm not using it to play superheros that often

Unfortunately that seems to be becoming a more common phrase every single week.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Unfortunately that seems to be becoming a more common phrase every single week.

 

I'm not so sure that's an "unfortunate" thing for a game touting itself as a Toolkit and Genre Simulator.

 

I think it's a step in the right direction. Hero's capabilities are as far flung as the imaginations of the people playing it. And we don't need seperate rules and rule variations for every genre we want to play in.

[zornwil]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Unfortunately it's an aspect of the game which doesn't mimic comic books; not a good thing for the superhero genre anyway.

I disagree. The comics are replete with the "surprise" "this is bigger than even you can take, bwa-ha-ha" moments. And for high-powered campaigns, that is actually more rather than less essential.

 

I think that the basic point structures now for the absolutes that exist (such as Desol) should be made so that they are minimum points structures for a great effect (as they are now, essentially) but the "great effect" is not absolute. I think Desol was better when it was 8 BOD/phase.

[MitchellS]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

I'm not so sure that's an "unfortunate" thing for a game touting itself as a Toolkit and Genre Simulator.

 

I think it's a step in the right direction. Hero's capabilities are as far flung as the imaginations of the people playing it. And we don't need seperate rules and rule variations for every genre we want to play in.

Because it can't properly emulate the genre less and less people are playing it for superheroes. That's never a good thing. That's only good for the other systems people are playing which can emulate the genre.

[MitchellS]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

I disagree. The comics are replete with the "surprise" "this is bigger than even you can take' date=' bwa-ha-ha" moments. And for high-powered campaigns, that is actually more rather than less essential.[/quote']

I said the same thing about 8 pages back, but I'll say it again here because people never go back and read what other's write.

 

There will always be exceptions, moment's of writer's caveat to override an invulnverability, but those are true exceptions and not the norm. For the most part the Human Torch is immune to fire. It's only on the rarest of occassions that they will send someone against him who can hurt him with fire. That's to show that someone is greater then his immunity plateau. I have no problem with that. But the system can't even emulate the 99% of the time when it's not the exception. Sometimes the concept of absolutes [up to the exception] is needed.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

the reason i don't play supers with it, has mostly to do with the fact that none of us like to be super heros as much as we like to be space aliens and ninjas etc.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Because it can't properly emulate the genre less and less people are playing it for superheroes. That's never a good thing. That's only good for the other systems people are playing which can emulate the genre.

 

I don't think that's true. But then I don't follow comic books that closely.

 

I've not found something that Hero can't properly emulate when I want it to. That includes when I player a 'Supers' game, which is less than half the time because there are so many other interesting things out there to play.

[Mister E]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Because it can't properly emulate the genre less and less people are playing it for superheroes. That's never a good thing. That's only good for the other systems people are playing which can emulate the genre.

Where is this coming from? The game has its problems, but it handles the Superhero Genre just fine... better than any other game I've checked out. Do you know of a System that handles Superheroes better than HERO?

 

I disagree. The comics are replete with the "surprise" "this is bigger than even you can take' date=' bwa-ha-ha" moments. And for high-powered campaigns, that is actually more rather than less essential.[/quote']

There will always be exceptions' date=' moment's of writer's caveat to override an invulnverability, but those are true exceptions and not the norm. For the most part the Human Torch is immune to fire. It's only on the rarest of occassions that they will send someone against him who can hurt him with fire. That's to show that someone is greater then his immunity plateau. I have no problem with that. But the system can't even emulate the 99% of the time when it's not the exception. Sometimes the concept of absolutes [up to the exception'] is needed.

If the Human Torch is Desolid to Fire Attack, and Fire Lord burns him with an Affects Desolid Fire Attack... that seems pretty cool to me.

 

The "Hand-Wave" that takes place during the Desolid Invulnerablity Power, is really nothing of the kind. The fact that everyone perceives the hand-wave, and it offends them, is silly, and extremely concervative in mindset. The Desolid Power is a constellation of rules, just like every other Power, and aspect of the Game System that is HERO 5ed revised. The Desolid Invulnerability Power is its own entity both apart from, and a part of, the Desolid Power in general.

 

If I'm a Red Dragon, and I'm Desolid to Fire, and I am shifted into the Elemental Plane of Fire, where pockets of Quintessential Fire exist that are built as Effects Desolid Fire objects that even Effriti fear, I'd probably stay away from them.

 

What you should really be pissed about, is the fact that Desolid doesn't have any rules in it, to make characters immune to Mental Attacks. What's up with that?

[zornwil]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

I said the same thing about 8 pages back, but I'll say it again here because people never go back and read what other's write.

 

There will always be exceptions, moment's of writer's caveat to override an invulnverability, but those are true exceptions and not the norm. For the most part the Human Torch is immune to fire. It's only on the rarest of occassions that they will send someone against him who can hurt him with fire. That's to show that someone is greater then his immunity plateau. I have no problem with that. But the system can't even emulate the 99% of the time when it's not the exception. Sometimes the concept of absolutes [up to the exception] is needed.

 

Edited after I reread your note.

 

Well, I don't think they are "true exceptions", I think there is a norm on the top end, and that it's, within an RPG context, quantifiable. I don't think we can agree here.

 

As to the 99% of the time it doesn't emulate the source material, I think invulnerability as stated in these threads is worth addressing but I'm not sold on any one solution and it might be easiest to leave it to people...seems the core toolkit has enough to extrapolate from.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Where is this coming from? The game has its problems' date=' but it handles the Superhero Genre just fine... better than any other game I've checked out. Do you know of a System that handles Superheroes better than HERO?[/quote']

 

IMO Mayfair games version of DC Heroes does a better job. One thing it has is the divorcing of Roleplaying from tactical wargaming which HERO lacks. If I hear one more player or GM complain about another Player 'gaming' the system because they are figuring out the tactical application of movement and powers....If this type of activity wasn't important so much of the rules would not be devoted *to it*!

 

 

The "Hand-Wave" that takes place during the Desolid Invulnerablity Power' date=' is really nothing of the kind. The fact that everyone perceives the hand-wave, and it offends them, is silly, and extremely concervative in mindset. The Desolid Power is a constellation of rules, just like every other Power, and aspect of the Game System that is HERO 5ed revised. The Desolid Invulnerability Power is its own entity both apart from, and a part of, the Desolid Power in general. [/quote']

 

It is mostly the +2 Effects Real World Advantage and the rules regarding it' applicability. And the need for Near Invulnerability and Immunity rather than the perfect application of Desolidification.

 

 

Hawksmoor

[MitchellS]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Where is this coming from? The game has its problems' date=' but it handles the Superhero Genre just fine... better than any other game I've checked out. Do you know of a System that handles Superheroes better than HERO?[/quote']

Where's this coming from? Spend 20 min on the M&M or RPG.net boards and look at all the posts by new people asking for information about the game who have left Champions. You might just be surprised how many once-familiar Hero names are now posting there; people who were once staunch defenders of Champions are now sending people to play M&M. And yes, I can tell you without a doubt that M&M 2.0 handles the genre much better. Hero is not a genre game any longer; it's a universal game which can be used to emulate some of the aspects of a particular genre, but not all the aspects.

 

If the Human Torch is Desolid to Fire Attack, and Fire Lord burns him with an Affects Desolid Fire Attack... that seems pretty cool to me.

So what you're telling me is that I should use a power designed for phasing to be invulnerable to heat, and that my bad heat-usign guys should take a power designed to hurt phasers to hurt them? So now we're using 2 powers not designed to do this to help us emulate a genre convention? And yes, let's not forget the required handwaving too.

 

What you should really be pissed about, is the fact that Desolid doesn't have any rules in it, to make characters immune to Mental Attacks. What's up with that?

What's up with that is that desolid is not supposed to be an immunity power. It's supposed to be a phasing power, and the idea is that Professor X can still telepathically chat with Shadowcat when she's phasing [unless you assume Professor X purchased affects desolid on all his attacks too?].

[prestidigitator]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

So what you're telling me is that I should use a power designed for phasing to be invulnerable to heat' date=' and that my bad heat-usign guys should take a power designed to hurt phasers to hurt them? So now we're using 2 powers not designed to do this to help us emulate a genre convention? And yes, let's not forget the required handwaving too.[/quote']

Phasing? Let's not confuse Powers with Special Effects. The mechanics of the Desolidification Power include two game effects, neither of which is secondary: 1.) You may pass through physical objects, 2.) Common/normal attacks (with certain exceptions) have no effect on you. There are very standard Limitations spelled out right in the book for removing either of these effects. Whether a character is, "phasing," or simply bouncing things is SFX, not mechanics, and Powers are all about mechanics.

 

There's no reason that Desolidification with Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects cannot be interpreted as an uber-deflection/invulnerability type power. It is possible that you are not broad minded enough to wrap your mind around that (I have no idea), and you may certainly disallow it in your games (which is of course always your choice), but that doesn't keep everyone else who wishes to use the Power as it was designed and intended from doing so.

 

EDIT: Sorry, but I have just heard so many people arguing against using this Power for anything but their own specific view of what its SFX are that I'm not very patient with the argument anymore.