New Power: Desolidification

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Desolidification

 

I actually think that Desolidification is pretty balanced for its cost' date=' especially with the current rules about not affecting the physical world, and the Base Cost being pretty high (which means adding things like Reduced End Cost is expensive).[/quote']

I appreciate your opinion, but even the rules have marked Desolidification as a Stop Sign power, which means even the designers don't think it's balanced vs other powers. Again, that's just my take on it.

 

But I wasn't necessarily just talking about balance either. Is it unreasonable to place Desolidification in a Multipower or VPP (a spell' date=' for example)?[/quote']

That's for the GM to decide, not the rules. My opinion.

 

Is it unreasonable to allow it in a game with AP limits less than the Base Points + Maximum Disadvantage Points for a character?

Again, that's for the GM to decide, not the rules.

 

Should we be creating a Power that will force the GM to make exceptions left and right just to allow these things?

The GM already has to make exceptions left and right again for Desolidification to be allowed. Remember, it's a Stop Sign power, and most GM's are going to require scrutinazation of the character that has purchased Desolidification before accepting it. The GM has to decide whether to make exceptions anyway. A GM has to decide whether to make an exception to allow a 80 Active Point Attack Power in his game if he thinks it will be balanced with other powers that have less active points.

 

But if you have no problem with it for your games, I salute you! (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Desolidification

 

Updated Post.

Version 2 of the Desolid Power.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Duke Bushido]

Re: New Power: Desolidification

 

Oh yeah, this structure also eliminates the need for the Affects Desolid advantage. The Variable SFX advantage can be used instead.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

I started to mention this in the DR thread, but this seems more appropriate.

 

We don't use the Affects Desolid advantage in our campaigns. Granted, it's a leveler, to ensure equality for those who have Desolidification,but it has always had a 'metagame' feel to it.

 

We have found that we get the same level field out of going with the basic premise of the system, and that is SFX. Any character with Desolidification _must_ define at least one common set of SFX that can affect his Desolid form, and at least two uncommon ones. We also allow price breaks for three or more common sets of SFX that can affect him, and smaller price breaks for three or more uncommon sets of SFX.

 

And on the other end of the spectrum, we don't use the 'Affects Solid' advantage either (though a character can opt to take a limitation that his power won't work on solids when he is desolid). Again, the SFX (and that previous Limitation, if taken) decide if his attack should still work.

 

For example, a character whose Desolidification is defined as converting his body to pure electricity might define that he is affected normally by water-based attacks (uncommon in our campaign) and that he takes damage normally from any electical attack (common in our campaign) or attack using grounded condutors (uncommon). But simply because he has become pure electricity shouldn't prevent his Lightning Blast from still affecting solid targets. And the way we play, it doesn't.

 

On a further note, a Desolid character cannot automatically interact physically with another Desolid character. That is entirely a matter of their SFX. Two characters who 'become the wind' could both interact, etc.

 

Sorry. I wasn't trying to interrupt; it is simply that as one of the people who thinks 5E desolid (and 4E, to a lesser extent) is broken, I was very excited about what you've done here.

 

Kudos!

 

Duke

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Power: Desolidification

 

I'm beginning to worry about this Duke Bushido character: 24 posts and he's making this much sense? What's going on?

 

Way back when you could really really abuse Endurance Batteries (as they were then called) I built a villain, whose name I have forgotten, who was basically a power armoured god of electricity. Not literally a god, just very good with it, and incredibly hard to hurt.

 

Horrible horrible abuse of the rules I would never have let the players away with in a million years.

 

Point is, he had a major vulnerability to water based attacks and, although none of the players had water based attacks, the means to create them were at hand.

 

Thing is, this character would never have made it as a PC: either all powerful or flat on his back: not a fun character, but, as it turned out, a great villain.

 

Point is (I think) that if you allow this kind of power, say the example given - 'electric desolid - vulnerable to water, electricity and conductors', either you arm your villains with one of those things, which will soon start to feel contrived, I'd imagine, or you resign yourself to having a PC who is never going to lose a fight, at least not in the conventional sense.

 

I sometimes think that players should be built with powers as exclusively from the following list:

 

Energy blast

Force field

Characteristics

Martial arts

Damage resistance

Flight

Running

Teleport

Swimming

Swinging

 

...and you should save all the other stuff for villains. The fun is then working out how to take the villain down. Brute force may not be enough - you may need to apply tactics and forethought.

 

It seems to me that the most popular comic book heroes tend to be pretty simple constructs at heart. In fact most experienced comic book heroes are just basic heroes with a VPP for cunning power tricks.

 

Even when heroes get unusual powers- like mental powers - they never seem to really exploit them: the author knows that a hugely powerful telepath does not make for an intersting story unless you don't use the telepathy much.

 

Maybe I'm just an old fuddy duddy, but you can find an awful lot of variation in just a few basic powers. I think we may be a bit spoiled for choice, you know. I have no idea why I'm going on about this here, but there you have it.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: New Power: Desolidification

 

I'm beginning to worry about this Duke Bushido character: 24 posts and he's making this much sense? What's going on?

Yeah, I'll echo that...I didn't start making that much sense until I had at least 60 posts...

 

 

( )

 

 

Good job, Duke Bushido! It's a pleasure to have another thoughtful poster on the forums, especially one who starts that way! Keep up the good work!

[Sean Waters]

Re: New Power: Desolidification

 

Yeah' date=' I'll echo that...[b']I[/b] didn't start making that much sense until I had at least 60 posts...

 

 

( )

 

 

Good job, Duke Bushido! It's a pleasure to have another thoughtful poster on the forums, especially one who starts that way! Keep up the good work!

 

 

.....I am grateful that you did not point out that I am well into my second millennium and haven't started making sense yet

[Duke Bushido]

Re: New Power: Desolidification

 

Thanks, guys-- seriously.

 

I don't think I've done anything unusual; I love the game, and came here to spend a bit of time with others who share pleasure in the game.

 

I can't-- heck, I _won't_!-- take credit for 'making sense;' all I've done really is stick with the basics. It's like anything else: the game wouldn't have been around so long if it didn't have a following, and it wouldn't have had a following if it hadn't been doing something right back in the beginning. Like anything else with sequels, it's too easy to lose sight of what you originally appreciated. But thanks again!

 

And more than just reciprocity, I can honestly say that in my browsing about, I've found that I very much appreciate the bulk of what the both of you have said.

 

But getting back onto the subject, my players and I have agreed that starting with 4E, the mechanics were starting to obscure the inspiration. 5E has stepped further away. Both of these books have great value to us; new ideas always will.

 

But we work very hard to ensure that the soul of the play is not lost in the stage props. It has been our own experience (which is admittedly limited; I think there are only three HERO groups within an hour of us) that almost all the issues people routinely fret over can be completely resolved by ignoring the meta-game stuff and working with the SFX. Not always, of course, but close enough that it's been some time since we've had issues beyond modeling a new power construct.

 

heh heh heh--- I think the bulk of our House Rules are along the lines of "Ignore where the book says...."

 

We are, in essence, playing the most sophisticated and up-to-date version of 2E available!

 

 

:Duke

 

 

 

 

Duke

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Desolidification

 

Sorry. I wasn't trying to interrupt; it is simply that as one of the people who thinks 5E desolid (and 4E, to a lesser extent) is broken, I was very excited about what you've done here.

 

Kudos!

 

Duke

Thank you! I'm glad you like my rendition. Feel free to comment, suggest changes, and so forth. I try to refine my ideas so that they might usable by many people. Frankly, I could use more of these kind of interruptions. (8^D)

 

Thanks again.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Power: Desolidification

 

Yeah' date=' I'll echo that...[b']I[/b] didn't start making that much sense until I had at least 60 posts...

 

 

( )

 

 

Good job, Duke Bushido! It's a pleasure to have another thoughtful poster on the forums, especially one who starts that way! Keep up the good work!

Hell, I didn't start making sense at all until I had about 2,000 posts...er, yeah.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: New Power: Desolidification

 

Hell' date=' I didn't start making sense [i']at all[/i] until I had about 2,000 posts...er, yeah.

 

HA!

 

I think I have had my mutation and been blessed with the ability to rep now.

 

You get one for maintaining you humility!

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Power: Desolidification

 

You get one for maintaining you humility!

I try. I really try. And I'm so good at it, too!

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Power: Desolidification

 

.....I am grateful that you did not point out that I am well into my second millennium and haven't started making sense yet

To be fair, you beat me too it. I didn't see that. It's nice to see we think alike at times. EDIT: Even if that might be an illusion since neither of us make any sense anyway.

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Desolidification

 

...

What's you're appraisal of Version 2?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Duke Bushido]

Re: New Power: Desolidification

 

What's you're appraisal of Version 2?

 

Well, if you are asking the whole class, all I can say is that I prefer version one, at least as a jumping off point for our own campaigns. We already use Desolid way, way different from the book. But I like some of the modifiers you've come up with, and may well be borrowing them.

 

Duke

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Desolidification

 

Well, if you are asking the whole class, all I can say is that I prefer version one, at least as a jumping off point for our own campaigns. We already use Desolid way, way different from the book. But I like some of the modifiers you've come up with, and may well be borrowing them.

 

Duke

Feel free to borrow all you like, that's why I post my ideas. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Power: Desolidification

 

What's you're appraisal of Version 2?

You're going to make me think again? Man!

 

Desolidification (Standard/Costs END) [Version 2]

A character with Desolidification can become intangible to SFXs, however, he is unable to interact with the environment physically.

 

Intangibility

Single Common SFX: 10 Points

All But Single Common SFX: 60 Points [stop Sign]

 

Modifiers

 

Advantages

Unrestricted Movement: Character can pass through solid objects while intangible (+1).

Natural Form: Character's natural form is intangible. Character must spend END to become tangible (+1).

 

Limitations

Damage Limitations: Intangibility is limited.

-1/2: Doesn't prevent Stun damage.

-1/4: Doesn't prevent Knockback damage.

 

SFX Limitations: Commonality of SFX limits intangiblity.

-1/2: Single Uncommon SFX.

-1/2: All But Single Very Common SFX.

 

Restricted Perception: Character is restricted in perceiving the real world (-1/4 to -2)

-1/4: Character is unable to perceive the real world with the Hearing Sense Group.

-1/2: Character is unable to perceive the real world with the Sight Sense Group.

-1: Character may only perceive the real world with a single sense.

-2: Character is completely blind to the real world. However, this does not negate the ability of other characters to perceive the character.

 

Advantages

Real World Interaction: Character is able to interact with the real world (+1/4 to +2)

+1/4: Character may interact with the real world with a single Power in any fashion.

+1/2: Characte may interact with the real world with STR in any fashion.

+1: Character is may interact with the real world with a category of effect (Physical, Energy, Mental, etc...).

+2: Character is able to interact with the real world with STR and All Powers.

 

SFX Limitations: Commonality of SFX gants advantage to intangiblity.

+1/2: Single Very Common SFX.

+1/2: All But Single Uncommon SFX.

 

Ah, well my SFX stance still stands, but I will simply place, "SFX," with, "attack," in my head for generality. So, "All But Single Uncommon SFX," will become, "All But Single Uncommon Attack."

 

I still think 120 points for the baseline standard Desolidification is crazily expensive, especially if you want to add any additional Advantages in (even small ones). Maybe 20-30 points would be a better starting value than 60. I still have a feeling this distinction could be wrapped into your, "SFX Limitations," which might be better off being arranged into one category for ease of use (rather than seperating them by Advantage vs. Limitation).

 

In general I like the ideas for decreased perception and physical interaction. The former could make a good addition to the standard Power, in fact, and the latter could make Desolidification easier to use even if it could present some balance issues that might need to be ironed out a little bit through playtesting.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: New Power: Desolidification

 

Ah' date=' well my SFX stance still stands, but I will simply place, "SFX," with, "attack," in my head for generality. So, "All But Single Uncommon SFX," will become, "All But Single Uncommon Attack."[/quote']

 

 

With full respect to your stance on SFX v Attack (there's a whole 'nother thread for changing minds on that one anyway, right? ), how would you handle a situation like this:

 

A Damnpire has a Desolidification: mist form. In addtion to taking Stun Damage from wind-based and full damage from fire-based attacks, the player also decides that, keeping with the 'traditional mythos' requires that the Damnpire's Mist Form suffer normal damage from any attack made with a cold-forged iron weapon.

 

One night, the Damnpire is a Goth dance club, enjoying the low Vitamin-D buffet of urban chic Fang-Banger wannabes, when in bursts his arch-nemesis, the evil anti-Anne Rice know as Personal Dignity Man! PDM launches a barrage of stakes (hand crafted from the finest Cherry) with his autofire single-use ... uhm, Stake Shooter Thingy ^tm .

 

Instantly, the Damnpire slips into Mist Form; the stakes pass harmlessly through him and wipe out seven or eight blaise' fifteen year olds who think they've seen it all (and property values rise accordingly), but the Damnpire is unharmed. He quickly swooshed across the room and toward the rear kitchen, hunting the rear exit. As he approaches the back door, he finds the inner door open, but the security door is fastened shut, and with a cold-forged burglar bar-type iron security door!

 

So going on mechanics only, how do you handle that? Can he pass through harmlessly as though the grated door were not there? Can he pass through, but take damage for such intimate contact with the cold-forged iron? Is he completely unable to pass through at all in mist form, requiring him to resume his solid form (and vulnerability to PDM's Spike Shooter of Damnation) to open the door?

 

I'm not picking at you, really. I am just curious to know who you deal with something like this if the only practical applications or Desolid are considered to be combat-oriented (vs attacks).

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Power: Desolidification

 

With full respect to your stance on SFX v Attack (there's a whole 'nother thread for changing minds on that one anyway, right? ), how would you handle a situation like this:

 

A Damnpire has a Desolidification: mist form. In addtion to taking Stun Damage from wind-based and full damage from fire-based attacks, the player also decides that, keeping with the 'traditional mythos' requires that the Damnpire's Mist Form suffer normal damage from any attack made with a cold-forged iron weapon.

 

One night, the Damnpire is a Goth dance club, enjoying the low Vitamin-D buffet of urban chic Fang-Banger wannabes, when in bursts his arch-nemesis, the evil anti-Anne Rice know as Personal Dignity Man! PDM launches a barrage of stakes (hand crafted from the finest Cherry) with his autofire single-use ... uhm, Stake Shooter Thingy ^tm .

 

Instantly, the Damnpire slips into Mist Form; the stakes pass harmlessly through him and wipe out seven or eight blaise' fifteen year olds who think they've seen it all (and property values rise accordingly), but the Damnpire is unharmed. He quickly swooshed across the room and toward the rear kitchen, hunting the rear exit. As he approaches the back door, he finds the inner door open, but the security door is fastened shut, and with a cold-forged burglar bar-type iron security door!

 

So going on mechanics only, how do you handle that? Can he pass through harmlessly as though the grated door were not there? Can he pass through, but take damage for such intimate contact with the cold-forged iron? Is he completely unable to pass through at all in mist form, requiring him to resume his solid form (and vulnerability to PDM's Spike Shooter of Damnation) to open the door?

 

I'm not picking at you, really. I am just curious to know who you deal with something like this if the only practical applications or Desolid are considered to be combat-oriented (vs attacks).

Heh. Amusing example.

 

Anyway, I still didn't say, "only mechanics." I may not have chosen the best word when using, "Attack," but I think that is how the book phrases it. What I really mean is that I will stick with the general notion of one kind of thing that can affect the character. In one instance that thing might be SFX-based, in one it might be mechanics-based, in another it might be some of both or completely situational. If, "cold iron," is one thing that can affect the character, I think it is reasonable to decide he cannot pass through it on top of the fact that he will take damage from, "cold iron," weapons. It is going to depend a lot on the GM and the situation, however. While I might decide the iron can stop him, another might decide that he can slip through the holes in the iron, "without touching it," if he takes extra time and care. I don't know. In any case I probably wouldn't assess damage against him unless he also has a Susceptibility or maybe someone smashes the door into him. Depending on how I think I might handle it by default in the campaign, it might also be worth a small additional Limitation ("cannot pass through...").

 

As for all the holes in the, "damnpire's," Desolidification, I would probably just decide the commonness of the whole group of attacks when combined. If that is more common than I typically require for a Desolidification it might be worth a Limitation.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: New Power: Desolidification

 

Heh. Amusing example.

 

Thank you, Sir:D! Friendly conversation is at its best with equal parts amusement and exchange. And this seems to be a very friendly board. I've no intention of trying to change that!

 

Anyway' date=' I still didn't say, "[i']only[/i] mechanics." {SNIP}

 

Quite true; looking back, you did not. And your 'solutions' to the plight of the Damnpire are all perfectly agreeable.

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Desolidification

 

Bump.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Robyn]

Re: New Power: Desolidification

 

We have found that we get the same level field out of going with the basic premise of the system' date=' and that is SFX. Any character with Desolidification _must_ define at least one common set of SFX that can affect his Desolid form, and at least two uncommon ones.[/quote']

 

I suggested something similar to Lucius regarding an Invulnerability build: for every SFX that a character is Invulnerable to, he must also select another SFX (a different one) that he is Vulnerable to. This wouldn't be increased damage, just; none of his defenses, regular or exotic, would apply. Game balance would be assured by declaring that Vulnerable took precedence over Invulnerable.

 

In other words, you couldn't take overlapping Invulnerabilities to cover your weak spots; if two Invulnerabilities conflicted, one saying that a character was Invulnerable to an SFX and another saying that the character was Vulnerable to it, the character would be Vulnerable instead of Invulnerable.

[Truthsayer]

Re: New Power: Desolidification

 

(Scratches head after reading 1st post) Before I can understand the rest of the posts, could somebody explain this power in terms that stoopid ol me can understand? Give me an example for each if you could and then I can try to understand what everyone else is saying. Please?

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Desolidification

 

It is basically a redesign of Desolid that is based on becoming Intangible to a specified SFX.

 

Examples:

Ghost: Intangible vs All SFX (Affected by any Supernatural SFX power), Unrestricted Movement, Natural Form

Fire Elemental: Intangible vs Fire SFX, Natural Form, Real World Interaction (Fire Effects)

Hydro Hero: Intangible vs All SFX (Affected by any Energy SFX power), Unrestricted Movement (Small Openings), Damage (Knockback)

 

Also keep in mind that the initial post is the 2nd Version of the construct and the intial responses are referring to first construct, not the second one.

 

Does this help any?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Truthsayer]

Re: New Power: Desolidification

 

So, if I were intangible to Fire, fire wouldn't affect me? I don't understand the real world affect.

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Desolidification

 

Version 3 is now in the initial post.

 

Cleaned it up a little and added a couple of things. Nothing major.

 

- Christopher Mullins