How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

[prestidigitator]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

Having thought about it a bit more, I believe my concern about the 'point of origin' rule is that it is a limit on every attack power except strength, and strength is already desperately efficient, points wise.

 

OTOH it makes far more sense to have a POO* than not. I guess my players have a few nasty surprises coming

 

 

* especially after a heavy meal:doi:

I think the, "Point of Origin," of Str is largely left up to the GM. In part it is covered in some rules, such as changing the amout of Str that can be used in a Grab or to resist a Disarm based upon the number of limbs involved. I think it would also be reasonable for the GM to reduce or limit the amount of Str exerted by various means. For example, it is generally much harder to force your hand open than to force it closed. This is characteristic of the way our bodies are built. So in a sense I think Str has implicit Point(s) of Origin. The benefit of Powers and Advantages is that you can define them explicitly, thus having more control over them as a player.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

I think the' date=' "Point of Origin," of Str is largely left up to the GM. In part it is covered in some rules, such as changing the amout of Str that can be used in a Grab or to resist a Disarm based upon the number of limbs involved. I think it would also be reasonable for the GM to reduce or limit the amount of Str exerted by various means. For example, it is generally much harder to force your hand open than to force it closed. This is characteristic of the way our bodies are built. So in a sense I think Str has implicit Point(s) of Origin. The benefit of Powers and Advantages is that you can define them explicitly, thus having more control over them as a player. [/quote']

 

 

Good points: this is something I have vaguely thought about in the past: if you are hit by a spideranesque web entangle whilst spreadeagled on the ground it is going to be far harder to escape than in other positions: you don't have the leverage.

 

Has anyone applied this thinking to entangles? Any useful guidance as to appropriate strength reductions?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

In addition having just 3 senses would mean you could elect' date=' say, infra red, ultrasonic and radiowaves and have the power invisible to normal humans. I don't think that is how it is meant to be.[/quote']

Which was my example from many posts ago. Yes, it's very munchkiny, and no, I wouldn't allow it in my games. But I would allow the three senses to be Normal Sight, Sonar, and Radar, say for an easily visible projectile that doesn't make any noise.

 

No I really didn't miss your point. The rulebook should not have to spell out the meaning of "Visible To A Sense Group."

And yet, here we are disagreeing on the interpretation of a rule that isn't "clearly spelled out."

 

That's what Visible to a Sense Group means - Visible To All Senses in the Group.

Again, that's what *you* interpret it to mean. I don't. And you haven't been able to site any passage in the book that declares one of us right or wrong.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

Which was my example from many posts ago. Yes, it's very munchkiny, and no, I wouldn't allow it in my games. But I would allow the three senses to be Normal Sight, Sonar, and Radar, say for an easily visible projectile that doesn't make any noise.

 

 

And yet, here we are disagreeing on the interpretation of a rule that isn't "clearly spelled out."

 

 

Again, that's what *you* interpret it to mean. I don't. And you haven't been able to site any passage in the book that declares one of us right or wrong.

I'm not so sure you're not just trying to argue Devil's Advocate on this one, for the sake of drawing out an arguement.

 

I asked my wife who is both an English Major and an Editor how one might interpret the Sense Groups Rule as laid out and she came to the conclusion I did - It means the entire Group unless it explicitely states otherwise.

 

So there you are... I'm not sure of another way to interpret the concept of Group beyond The Group Being Talked About. in this case Senses.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

I've made public my own way of dealing with the '3 senses' rules,

 

but I would like to mention that every single time the rulebook refers to a sense as a singular sensory ability, it goes to a great deal of trouble to explain that it does _not_ mean every sense in that sense group.

 

During the rules section covering the '3 senses' rules, no such effort is ever made except for discussing the particulars on the IPE advantage.

 

That alone, to me, would indicate that the book does very much mean the entire sense group. (which I happily ignore).

 

 

Duke

[schir1964]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

Good Grief!!

 

Why doesn't someone just ask Steve Long what the intent of the Three Sense Rule is. The rules have been misleading before, ergo 5th Edition Revised, so why is it so hard to think it might be unclear here.

 

I've never inferred that it requires All Senses in the Group, due to other statements made by Steve Long and how he's answered FAQs.

 

So I suggest someone just come out and ask him. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Mentor]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

Let us bring up the trust issue again as it applies to interraction between the player and the GM and the players themselves.

 

The issue of degree and extent of visiblity ought (IMHO) be based on SFX, concept and honesty. The GM needs to remember that the heroes are driving the "title" and thus if they are detected, it should be for a reason, not just to show his superiority. The GM has more points than the player so screwing him over is no great accomplishment. Likewise, the player needs to remember that if hedefines a SFX that supposedly grants the equal of 30 points worth, he needs to buy the powers, not just claim them. A superhero succeeding within the limitation of their character ability is far more impressive than Omnigirl, the Queen of Everything. On Star trek, TNG, "Q" was only interesting when he had his powers diminished or taken away somehow.

[OddHat]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

On Star trek' date=' TNG, "Q" was only interesting when he had his powers diminished or taken away somehow.[/quote']

 

And when he went into battle accompanied by the number 3.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

Okay, I asked Steve. Here's his answer:

 

Steve's Answer

[zornwil]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

Makes sense, what I expected in this case.

 

The point of my question, just to come back around to the original topic, was definitely interest in how people really do things, not challenging the rules in this case.

[Fox1]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

I use the rules as they are written in the book.

 

Seems simple enough to me.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

I'm not so sure you're not just trying to argue Devil's Advocate on this one' date=' for the sake of drawing out an arguement.[/quote']

Let me assure you: I really do believe what I'm saying. I understand that your interpretation of the rules seems obvious to you. Can you accept that my interpretation of the rules seems obvious to me?

 

I asked my wife who is both an English Major and an Editor how one might interpret the Sense Groups Rule...

This is not a grammar issue. It's a logic issue. You don't perceive anything with sense groups, you perceive it with senses. When you say, "This character can perceive this power with his senses," you don't necessarily mean, "with *all* of his senses." ITRW, some phenomena are perceivable to a sense, but not to other senses within the same group. It follows that a power based on such a phenomenon could have the same property.

 

And now Steve has given a similar answer, and I agree with it.

[schir1964]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

Okay, I asked Steve. Here's his answer:

 

Steve's Answer

Thank you. I was truely surprised by Steve Longs answer, it seems he's changed him mind or forgotten how he's answered some of my questions, oh well.

 

Based on Steve's answer, it would seem that END Costing Powers are visible to "most if not all" senses in the three sense groups.

 

This is definately not how I've been running things. To go over my rules again:

1) Must be visible to the Sight Sense. Player doesn't have a choice on this one, but he can try to convince me otherwise of course.

2) Must be visible to the Hearing Sense. Player doesn't have a choice on this one, but he can try to convince me otherwise of course.

3) Must be visible to at least one sense in the Radio Group. Player gets to choose based on the SFX. I'm fairly lenient with this one, and if the player makes a good argument for another Sense Group Sense, that's ok too.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Duke Bushido]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

Odd thought:

for those of you who are flexible in your determination of what senses and how many, how do you feel about Abstract Concept Man building a power that is easily percieveable to the 'Detect' Group?

 

 

the rules have been misleading before' date=' ergo 5th Edition Revised,[/quote']

Woah! There's _another_ Fifth Edition?! I gotta get a better local vendor....

 

 

On Star Trek' date=' TNG, "Q" was only interesting when he had his powers diminished or taken away somehow [/quote']

I'm really enjoying both sides of the discussion on the Visible SFX issue, but I've got to take a definate stand on the "Q" issue:

 

I disagree. "Q" was _never_ interesting....

 

 

Duke

[prestidigitator]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

I think that's close to the way I usually play it. My interpretation is that by default a Power is perceivable by all Senses in each Sense Group, but if it makes sense (ha!) a particular unusual Sense or two might be excluded. For example, a smoke-based attack would be generally perceivable by all Sight Group Senses, but might exclude IR Vision. A power should usually be perceivable to Normal Sight and Normal Hearing, so if Sight and Hearing are two of the Sense Groups, it would be unreasonable to exclude those particular Senses without IPE.

[schir1964]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

Odd thought:

for those of you who are flexible in your determination of what senses and how many, how do you feel about Abstract Concept Man building a power that is easily percieveable to the 'Detect' Group?

More explanation is needed.

Do you mean in addition to the Three Sense Groups?

 

However, the "Detect" Group isn't a group unto itself. What's the SFX of the power in question, what does it do, and against what kind of defense?

 

Woah! There's _another_ Fifth Edition?! I gotta get a better local vendor....

Yep, and it's a third thicker! (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[prestidigitator]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

Oh, BTW, I actually allow all of the Sense Groups to be Non-Targetting, but in this case the Power has to be so, "noisy," or whatever to one of the Sense Groups that Senses from that Sense Group could be used to precisely pinpoint (and target if done with careful timing) the attacker.

 

For example, for a Power that, "discharges a large but diffuse static charge at the target," you might easily feel (Touch Group) where it comes from (at range, even if you don't have Ranged Touch) and know exactly where the attacker is, even though the discharge is not visible. If you were to make an immediate attack or be subsequently attacked by the same attacker, you would be at full OCV and DCV even if you cannot otherwise perceive the attacker with a Targeting Sense.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

And when he went into battle accompanied by the number 3.

"This episode of Star Trek TNG has been brought to you by the letter 'Q' and the number '3'."

[ghost-angel]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

Steve managed to agree with all of us... no wonder he writes The Book.

 

This is what I got:

 

A Power is visible to 3 Sense Groups.

A Sense Group is defined as all the Senses in the Group, if you choose Sight Group it is visible to all forms of Sight: Normal, Night, IR, UV, etc... unless the GM believes that a particular Sight Sense that is not "normal" (ie, Magic Sight) doesn't work.

 

But that's the GM Choosing - Not the Player. The Player says "Sight Group, Hearing Group, Radio Group" and by default all Senses in all three Groups percieve it. The GM may then have a caveat that a particular Sense does not work.

 

Which is both what I've (all the parts before unless anyway) said and what Phil (and may others) have said.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

More explanation is needed.

Do you mean in addition to the Three Sense Groups?

 

However, the "Detect" Group isn't a group unto itself. What's the SFX of the power in question, what does it do, and against what kind of defense?

 

Yes, in addition to the Three Senses already required; I should have been more clear.

 

Abstract ConceptionMan has, over the years (along with HeroMan and SidekickBoy) become sort of a 'proving ground' our group uses to both beta-test unusual constructs and to determine if something is "too meta-game" or "too unregulated" to work sensibly for us. During the course of this thread, I was wondering what a power 'visible to Detect', where 'Detect' is infinite by ommission of restriction, would be like. More a thought exercise than an actual plan. (Though I might add it to his character sheet!)

[prestidigitator]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

Yes, in addition to the Three Senses already required; I should have been more clear.

 

Abstract ConceptionMan has, over the years (along with HeroMan and SidekickBoy) become sort of a 'proving ground' our group uses to both beta-test unusual constructs and to determine if something is "too meta-game" or "too unregulated" to work sensibly for us. During the course of this thread, I was wondering what a power 'visible to Detect', where 'Detect' is infinite by ommission of restriction, would be like. More a thought exercise than an actual plan. (Though I might add it to his character sheet!)

I think it would actually be a version of the Visible (or is it Noisy?) Limitation. Why? Because I view Detect as actually the mechanics behind all the Senses, even the normal ones. It may not work out this way in terms of points (not sure), but that's the way I think of it. Therefore, Abstract Concept Man's power is visible to every Sense that exists.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

I think it would actually be a version of the Visible (or is it Noisy?) Limitation. Why? Because I view Detect as actually the mechanics behind all the Senses' date=' even the normal ones. It may not work out this way in terms of points (not sure), but that's the way I think of it. Therefore, Abstract Concept Man's power is visible to every Sense that exists. [/quote']

 

this is how I look at all sense as well.

 

IR: Detect Heat Patterns (5pts). IR Sight uses the Simulated Sense Rule - IR gains all the benefits your Sight Sense has (analyze, targeting, etc...) and is affected by anything that affects the Sight Sense Group (like Flashes vs Sight Group).

[Duke Bushido]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

I think it would actually be a version of the Visible (or is it Noisy?) Limitation. Why? Because I view Detect as actually the mechanics behind all the Senses' date=' even the normal ones. It may not work out this way in terms of points (not sure), but that's the way I think of it. Therefore, Abstract Concept Man's power is visible to every Sense that exists. [/quote']

 

You're right of course, for the idea as I originally submitted it. I've been thinking about it some more, though, and have gone further:

 

I was under the impression (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that a Detect, as a special ability, is not obligated to be linked to a traditional sense, and in fact takes modifiers for such construction. Running with that, I think I'm going to go with this:

 

base 3: Sight, touch, smell.

"Visible' to All Detects (not those defined as being a special ability on an existing sense, like being able to 'see' auras, etc)

"Visible" to the heart. Everyone near him when he uses this power "Just Knows" that he really wants to use it.

 

Yes, it's odd, and abstract (hence his name). Anyone see anything illegal here?

 

 

Duke

[ghost-angel]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

You're right of course, for the idea as I originally submitted it. I've been thinking about it some more, though, and have gone further:

 

I was under the impression (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that a Detect, as a special ability, is not obligated to be linked to a traditional sense, and in fact takes modifiers for such construction. Running with that, I think I'm going to go with this:

 

base 3: Sight, touch, smell.

"Visible' to All Detects (not those defined as being a special ability on an existing sense, like being able to 'see' auras, etc)

"Visible" to the heart. Everyone near him when he uses this power "Just Knows" that he really wants to use it.

 

Yes, it's odd, and abstract (hence his name). Anyone see anything illegal here?

 

 

Duke

 

Detects not using the Simulated Sense Rule should only ever detect what they're saying they are. Detect: Iron Ore will be of no use vs Fireball Man.

 

In this respect "Detect's" already take care of themselves, they either follow the Simulated Sense Rule or they only work vs exactly what they are defined to work against. And a player should have a very good reason for not using a Simulated Sense (Like Magic Sight).

[schir1964]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

You're right of course, for the idea as I originally submitted it. I've been thinking about it some more, though, and have gone further:

 

I was under the impression (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that a Detect, as a special ability, is not obligated to be linked to a traditional sense, and in fact takes modifiers for such construction. Running with that, I think I'm going to go with this:

 

base 3: Sight, touch, smell.

"Visible' to All Detects (not those defined as being a special ability on an existing sense, like being able to 'see' auras, etc)

"Visible" to the heart. Everyone near him when he uses this power "Just Knows" that he really wants to use it.

 

Yes, it's odd, and abstract (hence his name). Anyone see anything illegal here?

 

 

Duke

If it doesn't fall into the Simulated Senses, then it defaults to the Unusual Sense Group. You'll need to read up on that since it has some special rules.

 

- Christopher Mullins