Why exponential progression doesn't work for damage

[prestidigitator]

Re: Why exponential progression doesn't work for damage

 

Size matters.

No kidding. Ask any girl when her boyfriend isn't around.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why exponential progression doesn't work for damage

 

The other problem with exponential damage progression is simply that we roll dice for damage. Really, on an exponential scale, damage should stick very tightly to the 'average': a variation of more than a few points becomes orders of magnitude worth of difference.

 

I hesitate to go this way as the attraction for many is rolling the dice, and taking them away makes everything much more mechanical, but for a truly exponential damage system, that is the way it would probably have to be (or you could use JAGs 'omega levels' system: effectively, if I understand it, damage is exponential between different levels, but linear within a given level - so characters of the same relative power can compete over a scale of values but find it very hard (or easy!) to compete outside their relative power value. I'd have thought that difficult to do in Hero)

[Warp9]

Re: Why exponential progression doesn't work for damage

 

The other problem with exponential damage progression is simply that we roll dice for damage. Really, on an exponential scale, damage should stick very tightly to the 'average': a variation of more than a few points becomes orders of magnitude worth of difference.

Agreed.

 

But it does sometimes seem like damage has a large random componet. Sometimes people survive events that should have caused massive damage, while other people die in very minor circumstances.

 

Of course, part of that depends on the target. An attack is much more likely to have a consistent impact on a solid block of stone (or similar homogenous target).

 

Still it may be that quite a bit of randomness is allowable in this case.

 

I hesitate to go this way as the attraction for many is rolling the dice, and taking them away makes everything much more mechanical, but for a truly exponential damage system, that is the way it would probably have to be

Even if you want to get rid of much of the randomness, there are some middle grounds here. . . .

 

Damage from 4 different attacks could look like this:

 

3 + 2d6 (range 5 - 15) (Average 10)

 

8 + 2d6 (range 10 - 20) (Average 15)

 

23 + 2d6 (range 25 - 35) (Average 30)

 

35 + 2d6 (range 37 - 47) (Average 42)

 

 

You'd still have dice but it would be much less random.

 

 

(or you could use JAGs 'omega levels' system: effectively, if I understand it, damage is exponential between different levels, but linear within a given level - so characters of the same relative power can compete over a scale of values but find it very hard (or easy!) to compete outside their relative power value. I'd have thought that difficult to do in Hero)

 

I haven't seen how this concept works out in JAGS, but I've seen multiple scales used in Rifts, and I didn't like that.

 

In Rifts, Strength is linear but you have multiple Strength scales (Normal, Extraordinary, Robotic, Supernatural). I'd much prefer a single exponential STR score.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why exponential progression doesn't work for damage

 

Even if you want to get rid of much of the randomness, there are some middle grounds here. . . .

 

Damage from 4 different attacks could look like this:

 

3 + 2d6 (range 5 - 15) (Average 10)

 

8 + 2d6 (range 10 - 20) (Average 15)

 

23 + 2d6 (range 25 - 35) (Average 30)

 

35 + 2d6 (range 37 - 47) (Average 42)

 

 

You'd still have dice but it would be much less random.

 

 

I've seen this kind of idea befor. (quite possibly posted by you!) but never really understood what the point was.

 

Now, having worked my way around to it in a slow and meandering way, I see that it makes an enormous amount of sense.

 

I was thinking about this on the way home today and thought I'd do it with reference to the 'to hit' roll: Hit by 0-2 is DC-1, 3 to 4 is DC and 5 or more is DC+1, something like that. Stun would be at -3/0/+3. I'll have to think a bit more.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Why exponential progression doesn't work for damage

 

I've seen this kind of idea befor. (quite possibly posted by you!) but never really understood what the point was.

 

Now, having worked my way around to it in a slow and meandering way, I see that it makes an enormous amount of sense.

It's what I was thinking of when I saw Fox1's vehicle/barrier penetration rules as well. Eh. Why not? We have Standard Effect now, so there's no reason not to use it.

[Crypt]

Re: Why exponential progression doesn't work for damage

 

I have always liked the idea of exponential progression for damage/defences/BODY. It has a certain attraction: you can create truly awesome characters without ludicrous numbers of points, and it fits with the Hero ethos of simulating a wide range of genres: you can do Indiana Jones and you can do Superman. Moreover strength has always had an exponential progression.

 

I was chatting away on a couple of other threads recently and began to understand a problem with exponential progression that I just can't see an answer to.

 

Assuming, for instance, doubling the thickness of a wall adds +1 BODY (which Hero says you can when blowing holes in walls) that leads to the conclusion - right or wrong - that you are doing double the damage with +1 BODY, or each +1DC doubles the damage. Actually, to confuse me, some materials are +1 for doubling thickness and +2 for others. Ah well. The principle holds.

 

There's a problem with this.

 

If you hit a 4 DEF wooden wall, and do 7 BODY damage, you blow a hole in it 32 mm deep. If you do 8 BODY the hole is 64mm deep and if you do 13 BODY it is 2 metres deep. 13 BODY is 9 points over the DEF of the material

 

Now if you do that 13 BODY with 3 seperate attacks, each 4 points over the DEF of the material (i.e. 3x8BODY damage) you get a hole 64mm x 3 deep, or a little less than 20cm deep.

 

This is a perfect example of exponential damage: one big hit is far far more effective than lots of little ones - EVEN IF YOU IGNORE DEFENCE.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Remember that in an exponential system adding ranks is multiplying values and substracting ranks is dividing values.

So if you substract DEF from BODY Dmg you actually do BODY Value divided by DEF Value.

 

rank / value

3 / 32

4 / 64

5 / 128

6 / 256

7 / 512

8 / 1024

9/ 2048

10/ 4096

11/ 8192

12 / 16384

13 / 32768

 

if you want a real substraction of R13 BODY damage against R4 DEF you should in fact do V32768-V64 = V32704 which is (roughtly) the value of Rank 12.99xx.

 

If you do a straight Body - Def you divide values.

 

 

PS: you should start at rank 0 = value 1.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Why exponential progression doesn't work for damage

 

Freaking threadcromancy. I've been doing this for two years and I'm still totally lost on what we're actually discussing.

[Crypt]

Re: Why exponential progression doesn't work for damage

 

I've been doing this for two years and I'm still totally lost on what we're actually discussing.

 

 

this is the kind of discussion which could answer to the question "is Blood of Heroes/DCH better than HERO" for supers campaigns ?...

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Why exponential progression doesn't work for damage

 

this is the kind of discussion which could answer to the question "is Blood of Heroes/DCH better than HERO" for supers campaigns ?...

 

Before I can intelligently respond -- and let's be clear, even in my scattered one line posts I'm at least trying to be funny AND on topic -- what are these things, and what's caused this level of discussion? I don't do 'Super Heroes' much, but my fanboyism suggests that we're discussing flavors of Kool-Aid. I like Grape. Some people like Cherry. And some smart-ass mixed 'em and said it tasted better and anyone else who doesn't think so is an idiot.

 

Me? I haven't drunk any of the Kool-Aid, so can you encapsulate the argument for, say, a really smart fifth grader?

[Maur]

Re: Why exponential progression doesn't work for damage

 

 

rank / value

3 / 32

4 / 64

5 / 128

6 / 256

7 / 512

8 / 1024

9/ 2048

10/ 4096

11/ 8192

12 / 16384

13 / 32768

 

if you want a real subtraction of R13 BODY damage against R4 DEF you should in fact do V32768-V64 = V32704 which is (roughly) the value of Rank 12.99xx.

 

If you do a straight Body - Def you divide values.

 

 

PS: you should start at rank 0 = value 1.

 

Rank 3 = 8 if you are using Base 2 math.

 

To distill this down... hmm... let me see if I can get a wrap around it in my own head to distill...

 

Math:

8*64 = 512

log(8) = 3

log(64) = 6

log(512) = 9

 

log(8*64) == log(8)+log(64)

so

log(8*64) == 3 + 6 = 9

9 = 9, so this is correct.

 

512/8 = 64

log(8) = 3

log(512) = 9

log(512/8) == log(512)-log(8)

so

log(512/8) == 9 - 3 = 6

6 = 6, so this is correct.

 

Effectively, doubling the power adds 1 to the rank, halving the power subtracts 1 from the rank.

 

So a Rank(13) Body Attack vs a Rank(4) Defense is going to do Rank(9) Damage. I don't think Crypt has it set right in his math...

 

2^13/2^4 is 2^9

[Crypt]

Re: Why exponential progression doesn't work for damage

 

Rank 3 = 8 if you are using Base 2 math.

 

this is exactly what i've said => "you should start at rank 0 = value 1."

 

If you read french you may have a look here=>

http://cryptmaster.free.fr/EXPON/

This is an exponential rpg system i'm working on.

 

 

Note that "Base 2" means a "binary base."

It's not the same think as what we are speaking about here.

 

 

 

I don't think Crypt has it set right in his math...

 

2^13/2^4 is 2^9

 

Maybe my english is not good enough because this is exactly what i've said => "in an exponential system adding ranks is multiplying values and substracting ranks is dividing values."

 

so Rank 13 - Rank 4 = Rank 9

is the same as Value (Rank 13) / Value (Rank 4) = Value (Rank 9)

is the same as 2^13/2^4=2^9

 

please, take some time to read before replying

[MorpheousXO]

Re: Why exponential progression doesn't work for damage

 

Quick! Find the shamans to suppress the evil death energies! Necromancy is evil! Only you can prevent forest elves... err... I mean... what was it?

[Crypt]

Re: Why exponential progression doesn't work for damage

 

Before I can intelligently respond -- and let's be clear, even in my scattered one line posts I'm at least trying to be funny AND on topic -- what are these things, and what's caused this level of discussion? I don't do 'Super Heroes' much, but my fanboyism suggests that we're discussing flavors of Kool-Aid. I like Grape. Some people like Cherry. And some smart-ass mixed 'em and said it tasted better and anyone else who doesn't think so is an idiot.

 

Me? I haven't drunk any of the Kool-Aid, so can you encapsulate the argument for, say, a really smart fifth grader?

 

I'm not sure what you're asking.

Do you mean you don't understand what this is about ?

 

If so, i may explain you the basic ideas behind an exponential system. (this is related to the very first post of this thread) =>

 

Let's speak about a scale where Value = 2^Rank

Rank / Value

0 / 1

1 / 2

2 / 4

3 / 8

4 / 16

5 / 32

6 / 64

7 / 128

8 / 256

9 / 512

10 / 1024

11 / 2048

12 / 4096

13 / 8192

14/ 16384

15 / 32768

etc...

 

The main interest of exponantial scale is that it simplifies several things by using - instead of / and + instead of X.

 

Let's say that units are: meter, kg, sec, m/s

 

For instance this can mean that if you have a Rank 10 Strength you can lift 1024 kg.

 

It may means that you can throw a 256 kg item at R10-R8=R2 => 4 meters.

 

Speed=Distance - Time

eg:

distance R8 (V260 m)

time R3 (V8 sec)

speed rank = 8-3 = R5 = 32 m/s

 

Distance = Speed + Time

Cinetic energy = Mass - 1 + (2 x Speed)

(instead of S^2 * M/2)

 

etc.....

 

 

Understood ?

 

 

If this is not what you're asking i'm sorry but i don't know what you're speaking about.

I have quoted the very first post by Sean Waters so i think it's clear i've replied to it only. (no reference to other posts)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Why exponential progression doesn't work for damage

 

Me? I haven't drunk any of the Kool-Aid' date=' so can you encapsulate the argument for, say, a really smart fifth grader?[/quote']

 

"ZOMG! Teh system r broken and no ones can play!!!!!! How has ur game not collapsed!!!!!!!1!!eleven!"

[Crypt]

Re: Why exponential progression doesn't work for damage

 

Quick! Find the shamans to suppress the evil death energies! Necromancy is evil! Only you can prevent forest elves... err... I mean... what was it?

 

I did not dig, i've simply followed a "Similar Threads" link from a 1 day old thread and did not check the age of this one. This forum encourages necromancy

[casualplayer]

Re: Why exponential progression doesn't work for damage

 

Crypt just recreated DC Heroes! Let's measure everything in APs.

[Maur]

Re: Why exponential progression doesn't work for damage

 

this is exactly what i've said => "you should start at rank 0 = value 1."

 

No, it isn't what you said based on the table in the post I was replying to. Below is the table in your own post. Notice how Rank 3 has a value of 32, not 8.

 

Remember that in an exponential system adding ranks is multiplying values and substracting ranks is dividing values.

So if you substract DEF from BODY Dmg you actually do BODY Value divided by DEF Value.

 

rank / value

3 / 32

4 / 64

5 / 128

6 / 256

7 / 512

8 / 1024

9/ 2048

10/ 4096

11/ 8192

12 / 16384

13 / 32768

 

Note that "Base 2" means a "binary base."

It's not the same think as what we are speaking about here.

 

According to the table you posted an increase in rank results in a DOUBLING of the value, that is Base 2 for logs as opposed to Base 10.

 

Maybe my english is not good enough because this is exactly what i've said => "in an exponential system adding ranks is multiplying values and substracting ranks is dividing values."

 

so Rank 13 - Rank 4 = Rank 9

is the same as Value (Rank 13) / Value (Rank 4) = Value (Rank 9)

is the same as 2^13/2^4=2^9

 

please, take some time to read before replying

 

I did read it. Here is the math you had in your previous post:

 

if you want a real substraction of R13 BODY damage against R4 DEF you should in fact do V32768-V64 = V32704 which is (roughtly) the value of Rank 12.99xx.

 

If you do a straight Body - Def you divide values.

 

You are straight subtracting the values which isn't what you had said one would do...

[Crypt]

Re: Why exponential progression doesn't work for damage

 

No, it isn't what you said based on the table in the post I was replying to. Below is the table in your own post. Notice how Rank 3 has a value of 32, not 8.

 

this table was a reply to Sean's post....

 

when i said :"you should start at rank 0 = value 1." => it meant exactly what you say.

 

1. Sean's did not speak about a 2^rk scale.

2. I replied to Sean.

3. In my post scriptum i said him he should use a 2^rk scale.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Why exponential progression doesn't work for damage

 

"ZOMG! Teh system r broken and no ones can play!!!!!! How has ur game not collapsed!!!!!!!1!!eleven!"

 

OMGZ! bunneh iz in teh classroom, killin teh mathz!!! eye diez! 15sec respawn?! OMGWTFBBQ?!?!?!

 

No, seriously, I think I've grasped the premise. Exponents. I get that. I passed 2nd grade math (or whenever they drilled the whole mess in my head). Fine. What I mean is, why are we discussing this? What could we possibly hope to prove?

 

I get that the idea (or what I think is the idea) is that for every 5 STR you get an exponential increase in things you can lift, so the query then seems to follow, does each d6 of, say, Killing Damage create an exponentially higher level of damage, or can it, considering that BODY is itself linear? i.e., 10 - 1 = 9, which is one less than ten, not some weird exponential value of my health, but simply 1/10th.

 

What I'm trying to ascertain -- accepting for the moment I'm better with t3h l3tt3rz than t3h numb3rz -- is why this is being discussed, and what the discussion itself is attempting to prove. I need to grasp what two things and I have neither:

 

* What is your thesis. What is your position of argument?

* What evidence supports your thesis. All I see is a bunch of people drinking kool-aid and arguing over the flavor, but totally incapable of showing any actual advantage to the flavor they prefer to drink.

 

These questions can -- I promise -- be answered without drowning me in mathematical crap. I asked for simple, straight answers. I was then asked to clarify the question, which I've now done. So, seriously, said in my first post in this threadcromancy:

 

What are you actually arguing about?

[Crypt]

What are you actually arguing about?

 

I've just said to Mr Sean Waters to: "Remember that in an exponential system adding ranks is multiplying values and substracting ranks is dividing values. So if you substract DEF from BODY Dmg you actually do BODY Value divided by DEF Value"....

 

 

Please refer to the very first post, thanks.

(And speak clearly and friendly please, who are you speaking to ?)

 

 

 

All I see is a bunch of people drinking kool-aid and arguing over the flavor, but totally incapable of showing any actual advantage to the flavor they prefer to drink.

 

Rough + You make no effort = End of discussion. Bye

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Why exponential progression doesn't work for damage

 

... I could derail this completely with a massive flame, but I'll avoid doing so. For the record:

 

[flame]

 

Thanks. Please be aware of whom you're accusing of being intentionally difficult in the face of honest questions asked by frustrated people who feel like they're being talked down too because they don't understand something. K. Done now.

 

[/flame]

[Maur]

Re: Why exponential progression doesn't work for damage

 

this table was a reply to Sean's post....

 

when i said :"you should start at rank 0 = value 1." => it meant exactly what you say.

 

1. Sean's did not speak about a 2^rk scale.

2. I replied to Sean.

3. In my post scriptum i said him he should use a 2^rk scale.

 

 

OK, then my confusion must have been the presence of that table with that statement since they didn't line up. Rank 3 was set to 32 rather than 8 where it would have been if Rank 0 = value 1.

 

[flame]

 

Thanks. Please be aware of whom you're accusing of being intentionally difficult in the face of honest questions asked by frustrated people who feel like they're being talked down too because they don't understand something. K. Done now.

 

[/flame]

 

Not sure who this was directed at, but if at me and my post on logarithmic math, then I apologize. The examples I posted were just me working through it in my head as I typed and tried to remember since I haven't had to do much beyond basic algebra and minor calculus in a few years.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Why exponential progression doesn't work for damage

 

OK, then my confusion must have been the presence of that table with that statement since they didn't line up. Rank 3 was set to 32 rather than 8 where it would have been if Rank 0 = value 1.

 

 

 

Not sure who this was directed at, but if at me and my post on logarithmic math, then I apologize. The examples I posted were just me working through it in my head as I typed and tried to remember since I haven't had to do much beyond basic algebra and minor calculus in a few years.

 

It was aimed squarely at Crypt; I should have quoted him and just failed to do so in a fit of pique. So we're clear, there was only one target for that, and it was a counter-attack. NHNF, Maur. You're still one of my favorite people.

 

Who else would have defended my Season 3/Ep 1 Doctor Who statement?

[Crypt]

Re: Why exponential progression doesn't work for damage

 

So we're clear, there was only one target for that, and it was a counter-attack.

 

target ?

counter-attack ?

 

Forum wars are f****** boring. I don't play this game

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Why exponential progression doesn't work for damage

 

Maur: I understand that there's a lot of math flying around, but no one has yet explained to me what the premise of the argument is. Can you dumb this down for me so I get it? Seriously, I want to understand (and possibly contribute) but I'm utterly lost as to what the premise is. I read Sean's post and it went straight past me, beyond the basics (which I illustrated upthread). So if you can render this into plain English, I'd appreciate it.